Sure railway modelling is expensive, but compared to other hobbies...

[Northmoor]

There is an easy way to reduce the cost of model railways in a simple way that never seems to occur to some people (you know, the ones who complain that the price of new locos is ridiculous and hobby's becoming too expensive for newcomers, it'll die out soon bla bla bla.....). It's called "Buying Secondhand".

 

I looked at a list of all the locos my Dad and I own.  In recent years he's bought a few of the new LNER classes but I think that three-quarters of our combined "fleet" is secondhand.  One of the reasons the fleet is much larger than it needs to be.

[cypherman]

Hi all,

As many may have said and it is in the title of this thread yes model railways are expensive, But so are many other hobbies. One of my other hobbies is motorcycling and between my wife and myself we have 3 bikes which cost between them more than all my model railway loco's, scenery etc put together. Not including the running costs. I am a member of a bike club and several members of my club have 4-5 bikes and more. So I suspect that they may own a great deal more than most of us here own in model railways. But yes it is all relative on what we want and how much we have to spend. Plus what we want to do with it. I would love a nice shiny new Triumph Bonneville but at £15,000 I cannot afford one so I bought bikes that I could afford. Same with model railways. Something is only expensive when you cannot afford it. When you cannot afford it new you look as has been mentioned earlier at the second hand market. I suspect that 90% of my engines are second hand. Or you can build them your self. Take a look here at Manna's post of the engines he has built out of basically scrap and some parts from his spares box. He seems to be able to build and finish a loco faster than I can just paint one......

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/74823-mannas-workbench-d2-sentinel-q1-n1-d3-a-pair-of-j3s-c2-j6-others/page-1

Edited September 20, 2018 by cypherman

[The Johnster]

There is an easy way to reduce the cost of model railways in a simple way that never seems to occur to some people (you know, the ones who complain that the price of new locos is ridiculous and hobby's becoming too expensive for newcomers, it'll die out soon bla bla bla.....). It's called "Buying Secondhand".

 

I looked at a list of all the locos my Dad and I own.  In recent years he's bought a few of the new LNER classes but I think that three-quarters of our combined "fleet" is secondhand.  One of the reasons the fleet is much larger than it needs to be.

 

We all have to cut our cloth according to our width, and the cost of even a small number of new locos builds rapidly and frighteningly.  Of my 9, only 2 were bought brand new and those were the subject of offers.  Everything else is either a remnant of the old days or has been purchased secondhand off 'Bay or my local shop, Lord and Butler's.  Some are hybrids; a 40 year old Mainline 56xx has a current but secondhand Bachmann chassis under it for example.

 

But there's no such thing as a free lunch, and one must be wary of 'Bay or other secondhand sources unless one is confident that any remedial work required is within one's capability and budget.  I personally recommend that buying new, from an outlet that can test run in your presence, is the most desirable acquisition policy for newbies, whatever it costs!

[ian@stenochs]

There is an easy way to reduce the cost of model railways in a simple way that never seems to occur to some people (you know, the ones who complain that the price of new locos is ridiculous and hobby's becoming too expensive for newcomers, it'll die out soon bla bla bla.....). It's called "Buying Secondhand".

 

There is another way to keep the cost down! Build the locos and stock from scratch!

I haven’t bought an RTR loco since I was in my teens but I have built a considerable number of locos, wagons and coaches which cost very little for the time spent. For most the only major expenditure is on wheels and drive train. Metal or plastic sheet is quite cheap specially for the small quantity needed for a model and even then 2nd hand or recycled material can be even cheaper.

 

Ian.

[The Johnster]

Well, yes.  Raw materials for scratchbuilding are cheap and can, if you look around a bit, be had for free depending on the material.  But the models are not cheap unless you happen to have a fully equipped workshop with all the necessary tools, and unless you are possessed of the necessary skills, you will have to have them professionally painted and finished.  Also there's time to consider, even if you don't cost it as your labour; a loco takes a good while to build, a coach just as long, and modern wagons are not far short of this either.  

 

The point, IMHO, of scratchbuilding is not to save money, but to acquire models that cannot be supplied from RTR or kits, and for what the Irish would term the feck of it; the sheer joy of building it yourself and the pride you have in the finished product; 'I made that'.  I have long term plans to build a diagram A7 or A9 auto trailer for my layout, for both those reasons, but I'll buy cast bogies and buffers for it and it'll probably not cost much less than a Hornby A27/30; that's fine, I'm not doing to save money.

[brack]

Modelling makes me a (small) profit. I only have 3 locos at the minute, in spite of having built 3 from other people's kits, about 10 of my own 3D printed designs and scratch built maybe 5 or 6 in the last five years or so. I'm quite fickle, so after a while I find that something doesn't quite fit with what I've changed my plans to and it finds a buyer. Had I had that sort of turnover of new RTR stock I'd be looking at quite a bit to the wallet, as it is the funds usually get pulled back into the household pot and help out.

Edited September 23, 2018 by brack

[OnTheBranchline]

There is an easy way to reduce the cost of model railways in a simple way that never seems to occur to some people (you know, the ones who complain that the price of new locos is ridiculous and hobby's becoming too expensive for newcomers, it'll die out soon bla bla bla.....). It's called "Buying Secondhand".

 

I looked at a list of all the locos my Dad and I own.  In recent years he's bought a few of the new LNER classes but I think that three-quarters of our combined "fleet" is secondhand.  One of the reasons the fleet is much larger than it needs to be.

 

Right but when the secondhand prices are getting a bit rich as well...

[The Johnster]

Secondhand prices tend to be pulled upwards by the release of a newer, more expensive model, even when this results in a glut of the older model on the market that should drive prices down.  What happens is that sellers try (obviously) to get the best price they can and base their asking price on a proportion of that of the newer model, hence the trickle down effect of new model price increases.  They sometimes drop after the new market has stabilised, only to be pulled up by the next price increase.

 

Loco prices for good condition models that are still in production new seem to vary between ½ and 2 thirds of the retail price, and it is not unusual for box shifters who want to shift boxes to offer brand new product at not a lot more than the 'Bay prices.  You'd think this would force 'Bay prices down a bit, but it doesn't seem to.

[Wellyboots]

My partner  found out this week, via her son, that her ex. has traded in his nearly new Audi R8 for a new Ferrari! He's a bit of a butterfly when it comes to cars, in the 4 years that I've known her he's probably had more cars than I've had in the last 30! Even when they were married he was like that, having owned an impressive list of high-end motors.

 

What I can take from this is;

 

1) In the acquisition of the big boy's toys my little trains will never be able to compete, as it doesn't seem so bad in comparison! 

2) I won't in future feel so guilty about buying a few more locos and stock, I can afford them and it doesn't seem so bad in comparison!

3) I won't get any grief from my partner, well not much, because I only spend what I can afford and it doesn't seem so bad in comparison!

[ian@stenochs]

Well, yes.  Raw materials for scratchbuilding are cheap and can, if you look around a bit, be had for free depending on the material.  But the models are not cheap unless you happen to have a fully equipped workshop with all the necessary tools, and unless you are possessed of the necessary skills, you will have to have them professionally painted and finished.  Also there's time to consider, even if you don't cost it as your labour; a loco takes a good while to build, a coach just as long, and modern wagons are not far short of this either.  

 

The point, IMHO, of scratchbuilding is not to save money, but to acquire models that cannot be supplied from RTR or kits, and for what the Irish would term the feck of it; the sheer joy of building it yourself and the pride you have in the finished product; 'I made that'.  I have long term plans to build a diagram A7 or A9 auto trailer for my layout, for both those reasons, but I'll buy cast bogies and buffers for it and it'll probably not cost much less than a Hornby A27/30; that's fine, I'm not doing to save money.

You exaggerate a bit. One does not require a fully equipped workshop to scratchbuild. Neither does one need to pay for a professional paint job.

 

A small collection of hand tools and a soldering Iron is enough to build a decent model. My first loco was built with tinplate from cocoa tins, brass curtain rail extrusion for frames and offcuts of rail for coupling rods. The only purchased bits were the wheels, motor and gears. I used a junior hacksaw, tinsnips, assorted files and a Stanley hand drill, not electric, and a soldering Iron you heated in the fire. The chimney was turned from a bit of brass, a pin from an old electric plug, held in the chuck of the drill and turned with the left hand while the brass was shaped with a file in the right hand.

 

For rolling stock you need even less with only a decent knife, rule and square and a few sheets of plastic card.

 

However I agree with you, scratchbuilders don’t just do it because it’s cheap, we do it for the sheer satisfaction of having something unique to ourselves. Something a rtr model can never give you.

 

Ian

[Dava]

Yesterday Mrs Dava divided her late dad's Steiff teddy bear collection with her two sisters. The point is that there was a big collection of the furry bears, in their wrapping paper and all boxed up as they had been since purchase...costing a few thousands. I suppose collecting is a pleasure for some and can leave a residual value, and we see a similar trait with the Hornby Slaves and their like who obsessively have to buy every single model released. It's an expensive obsession.

 

My view is using what you have or buy generates more value and pleasure for you if you use it and possibly for others if you display it. At this point in my life I'm trying not to add to the collection of kits to be built etc. unless I know I'm actually going to use them. Life is for living etc.

 

Dava

[Northmoor]

Right but when the secondhand prices are getting a bit rich as well...

 

I suspect secondhand prices achieved (other than on eBay, where you can easily see the actual selling prices) are often lower than asking prices.  At every exhibition and swapmeet I go to, I overhear traders complaining to each other about how slow business is.  They are frequently the same one charging what I consider inflated prices for what are old, long obsolete, not collectible models and often in less than excellent condition.  However, I rarely have (polite and not silly) offers turned down.

 

My view is using what you have or buy generates more value and pleasure for you if you use it and possibly for others if you display it. At this point in my life I'm trying not to add to the collection of kits to be built etc. unless I know I'm actually going to use them. Life is for living etc.

 

I have always had an interest in the classic car movement. For me one of the sad trends over recent years has been not just huge price increases for certain models, but that several of the regular publications seem to focus less on the enjoyment of owning and driving various models, but how you should buy one soon as the prices are surely going to rocket.  It has become about cars as just another investment and there are so many more traders around now, buying cars cheaply, doing little more than cleaning them thoroughly and trebling the price.  I have always thought you should buy such cars because you desire one and be prepared to lose every pound you spend; any profit you may make on re-sale is just a pleasant bonus.

[The Johnster]

My partner  found out this week, via her son, that her ex. has traded in his nearly new Audi R8 for a new Ferrari! He's a bit of a butterfly when it comes to cars, in the 4 years that I've known her he's probably had more cars than I've had in the last 30! Even when they were married he was like that, having owned an impressive list of high-end motors.

 

What I can take from this is;

 

1) In the acquisition of the big boy's toys my little trains will never be able to compete, as it doesn't seem so bad in comparison! 

2) I won't in future feel so guilty about buying a few more locos and stock, I can afford them and it doesn't seem so bad in comparison!

3) I won't get any grief from my partner, well not much, because I only spend what I can afford and it doesn't seem so bad in comparison!

 

Yeah, but he's got a Ferrari...

[great central]

Yeah, but he's got a Ferrari...

And that means????...........

[PhilJ W]

Yeah, but he's got a Ferrari...

 

 

And that means????...........

He's got a small ####?

[cypherman]

Hi all,

It is always worth looking at that well known internet auction site. As has been sais quite often model shops, especially the bigger retail shops will try and off load over stocked or older stock cheaply. I bought both the Tornado and the Cock of the North for about 60% of the listed cost new that way.

Edited September 24, 2018 by cypherman

[OnTheBranchline]

He's got a small ####?

 

I thought that was anyone driving a very loud motorbike? 

[Lacathedrale]

I think one of the great dividers in the market now is DCC-Sound - it means the average loco is >£225 new and >£200 s/h, and well out of the domain of 'Oh, go on then...' for 99% of people.  IMO DCC-Sound (and the associated DCC functionality such as inertia, live braking and rudimentary automation) is something that really catches people who don't have a traditional airfix-in-the-bedroom experience growing up. I am personally finding it hard to justify early model designs that are available affordably (such as the Hornby Railroad range) because they represent everything that pushed me away from British modelling in the first place - coarse wheels, ringfield motors, etc. - but on the other hand I simply can't justify spending a thousand pounds for a couple of locomotives.

 

If one considers the result of time vs money invested, maybe the solution is to go with finescale kit building wholeheartedly to make the balance - but from an economic point of view I don't think that makes sense.

[The Johnster]

DCC is definitely the future, though.  And the future, as everybody knows, is going to cost more.  The effect will be most noticed when the market allows RTR loco manufacturers to stop offering DC alternatives or DC only options.  This may bring DCC prices down a little due to economies of scale, but the future is not particularly promising for us DC Luddites; we'll have to stump up for DCC fitted locos and then 'de-chip' them. 

 

It is probably that those who can afford big layouts with lots of locos have already gone down the DCC route to simplify wiring, and are anyway those least affected, being able to afford the extra cost.  I can console my Luddite self with the idea that I have bought nearly all the DC locos I need already for my BLT, and the extra cash hit will be limited in my case.  It is already becoming obvious that if I want to increase my loco biodiversity much further, I will have to look to kits anyway.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Rest easy on the DCC question. I am not alone in prefering DCC ready, you get to choose the decoder you want rather than pay for a manufacturer's choice of the cheapest thing they can install in a DCC fitted production. (Then  again bargains are sometimes to be had when a DCC fitted version is on clearance. For a smaller price you get a DC loco ready to take decoder of choice, and some cruddy decoder 'thrown in free' .  This decoder may have inferior motor control, but is adequate to serve as a light switch in coaches, or similar applications. Win all around.)

 

IF - and as you can see it is a big if - 'someone' produces a standardised fully integrated system design of rechargeable power packs, high efficiency motors and wireless control options at a low low price - then the world of model railways may change.But I see it as unlikely for HO (OO) where the 12V DC system is coming up to a century of entrenchment as the way to make your models go using the electric. DCC is only an overlay on this system, underneath its 12V DC, as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, WWE...

[ROSSPOP]

I think one of the great dividers in the market now is DCC-Sound - it means the average loco is >£225 new and >£200 s/h, and well out of the domain of 'Oh, go on then...' for 99% of people.  IMO DCC-Sound (and the associated DCC functionality such as inertia, live braking and rudimentary automation) is something that really catches people who don't have a traditional airfix-in-the-bedroom experience growing up. I am personally finding it hard to justify early model designs that are available affordably (such as the Hornby Railroad range) because they represent everything that pushed me away from British modelling in the first place - coarse wheels, ringfield motors, etc. - but on the other hand I simply can't justify spending a thousand pounds for a couple of locomotives.

 

If one considers the result of time vs money invested, maybe the solution is to go with finescale kit building wholeheartedly to make the balance - but from an economic point of view I don't think that makes sense.

 

I would say that current O gauge RTR prices are now a realistic alternative to what I consider vastly overpriced 4mm stuff with `Russian Roulette` quality control

 

Your one thousand pounds will by you two RTR  locos  a few  RTR wagons and  enough RTP track for a small home 7mm layout ( unless of course you are one of those modeller hell bent on modelling Clapham Junction....... just the coach(es) to save up for.... and less is more in this scale.

 

john

[Allegheny1600]

Some thoughts of mine!

 

I'm a 'lifer' in that I've been railway modelling for most of my life having started at about 8 years old and never stopped since.

 

I don't desire the latest "must have" gadgets like the latest iPhone, 4K TV and so on and I've never had a new car. Why should I buy new only to lose a huge percentage of value as soon as I drive it off the forecourt? I research and buy reliable secondhand cars of around 10 years old and keep them for maybe five years - that's very cheap motoring.

 

I've never had a highly paid job.

 

The house is paid for (we overpaid the mortgage and cleared that ten years early) so we really don't have too many outgoings. We use a credit card but pre-load it before spending on it. If you can't do that, at least clear it every month. We shop at Aldi and Lidl rather than Sainsburys and Tesco or Waitrose(!). I certainly don't use 'Sky' tv!

 

I spend what I can afford on my hobby as besides my wife, that's what gives me the greatest pleasure in this world.

 

Now, I get that I'm "different" to most as most folk cannot do the above things that I described. That required discipline years ago. We have much less money coming in than my brother & sister in law, yet they are always "short".

 

So - if you're struggling to afford to buy decent models, maybe take a look at my philosophy and compare to what's important in your life. Money Supermarket and Robert Peston have given us a good deal of assistance plus a helping of common sense and patience.

Does this make sense?

[Lacathedrale]

I would say that current O gauge RTR prices are now a realistic alternative to what I consider vastly overpriced 4mm stuff with `Russian Roulette` quality control

 

Your one thousand pounds will by you two RTR  locos  a few  RTR wagons and  enough RTP track for a small home 7mm layout ( unless of course you are one of those modeller hell bent on modelling Clapham Junction....... just the coach(es) to save up for.... and less is more in this scale.

 

john

 

I saw that Heljan are releasing O-gauge A3 and A4's in LNER liveries next year - at £750 that sounds like a lot, but that's only 2x the price of the equivalent top-spec OO model (and not factoring in re-wheeling and custom valve gear for EM/P4) and occupies ^3 the space.

[The Johnster]

Some thoughts of mine!

 

I'm a 'lifer' in that I've been railway modelling for most of my life having started at about 8 years old and never stopped since.

 

I don't desire the latest "must have" gadgets like the latest iPhone, 4K TV and so on and I've never had a new car. Why should I buy new only to lose a huge percentage of value as soon as I drive it off the forecourt? I research and buy reliable secondhand cars of around 10 years old and keep them for maybe five years - that's very cheap motoring.

 

I've never had a highly paid job.

 

The house is paid for (we overpaid the mortgage and cleared that ten years early) so we really don't have too many outgoings. We use a credit card but pre-load it before spending on it. If you can't do that, at least clear it every month. We shop at Aldi and Lidl rather than Sainsburys and Tesco or Waitrose(!). I certainly don't use 'Sky' tv!

 

I spend what I can afford on my hobby as besides my wife, that's what gives me the greatest pleasure in this world.

 

Now, I get that I'm "different" to most as most folk cannot do the above things that I described. That required discipline years ago. We have much less money coming in than my brother & sister in law, yet they are always "short".

 

So - if you're struggling to afford to buy decent models, maybe take a look at my philosophy and compare to what's important in your life. Money Supermarket and Robert Peston have given us a good deal of assistance plus a helping of common sense and patience.

Does this make sense?

 

You are absolutely right to have realised that paying for things is the right way to go, and that the credit world of 'I want it now and I don't care how I'm gonna pay for it later' is the way of madness, and bankruptcy.  You make a lot of sense, and I agree with you almost by virtue of my middle class DNA and upbringing/early brainwashing.  

 

I have avoided credit mostly for most of my life, and come a cropper when I haven't.  I don't buy things unless I can pay for them up front and in cash.  Credit is a brilliant system for making other people rich at your expense, and I object to it on principle.  If you are struggling to afford decent models, I would suggest, in addition to your very wise advice, setting your sights a bit lower and cutting your cloth according to your width.  I am an impoverished pensioner (cue violins) on a fixed income, but I can afford to pay my bills, eat properly, go up the pub when I want, and run a BLT without over-egging the pudding.  I have to time my purchases, and be careful, but it's doable.  It's a case of balancing your priorities, obligations, and income sensibly.

 

Of course, there is an argument that any money you spend on a hobby is by definition not sensible.  I pay no heed to it...

 

My railway has cost me money that I could have easily and gladly used elsewhere.  George Best famously said that he spent his on booze and birds, and just wasted the rest; no matter what your income, it is never enough to do everything you want when you want to do it.  But a bit of management will enable you to do most of what you want without waiting too long for it.

 

I regard it, the railway, as money very well spent that has returned it's investment and the deprivation of the things I've done without by a massive, perhaps incalculable, amount.  Sure, Railway Modelling is expensive, but compared to what?  It is, for me, a life enhancing thing and I need as many of those as I can get!  I can reasonably expect another 2 decades of being able to appreciate it, so there's no point in saving for the future at current interest rates; I am therefore not too upset at paying £125 for an RTR 0-6-0 tank engine (Baccy 94xx) when it comes out.  Or (probably) whatever the price is by then; what it costs is what it costs.

 

I do this because I like it more than most of the other things I could be doing.  That is more than enough justification for this simple soul...

 

I don't run a car, much as I'd like to, as I can't really afford it and live in a location well served by public transport; as I am Welsh, I get free buses, which aren't really free because I've already paid for them with a lifetime of taxable earnings, courtesy of the Welsh Assembly Government, bless it.  So it costs nothing to visit my local model shop!

[Steamport Southport]

 

 

I don't run a car, much as I'd like to, as I can't really afford it and live in a location well served by public transport; as I am Welsh, I get free buses, which aren't really free because I've already paid for them with a lifetime of taxable earnings, courtesy of the Welsh Assembly Government, bless it.  So it costs nothing to visit my local model shop!

 

 I wouldn't give the Welsh Assembly too much credit as the buses are also free in England. As long as you are over sixty or registered disabled.

 

If you live in certain areas the local trains and ferries are free as well.

 

 

 

Jason