Sure railway modelling is expensive, but compared to other hobbies...

[TheSignalEngineer]

I would like go to the model shop by bus. Only trouble is the model shop closed down and the Council cut the bus service.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 I wouldn't give the Welsh Assembly too much credit as the buses are also free in England. As long as you are over sixty ...

Koff! In privileged parts of England maybe.

 

No bus pass here until you hit female state pension age: a receding target.

[jjb1970]

I saw that Heljan are releasing O-gauge A3 and A4's in LNER liveries next year - at £750 that sounds like a lot, but that's only 2x the price of the equivalent top-spec OO model (and not factoring in re-wheeling and custom valve gear for EM/P4) and occupies ^3 the space.

£375 is well above the equivalent Hornby A3 or Hornby A4, it is double what you'd probably pay for those models. The Dapol Black Label A4 falls into that price but that is factory fitted with a lot of DCC functionality and has a metal body, and personally if looking at things strictly in terms of accuracy and fidelity to prototype I'm not sure it is better than the much cheaper Hornby alternative.

[The Johnster]

 I wouldn't give the Welsh Assembly too much credit as the buses are also free in England. As long as you are over sixty or registered disabled.

 

If you live in certain areas the local trains and ferries are free as well.

 

 

 

Jason

 

Yeah, we've got a bit of catching up to do with trains and ferries here, but as Charles Eric points out, ours is a government funded scheme and nationwide, not restricted to local council generosity.  It includes those with mobility and some other issues as well as OAPs, and is universal across all local bus services, and extends into Gloucester, Hereford, and Chester for journeys beginning or ending in Wales.  There are gaps, where local buses do not run and coach services, a different thing, are the norm; one cannot for example travel west of Bridgend between Cardiff and Swansea, a major omission.  One can do Cardiff-Swansea via a change at Aberdare, and Cardiff-Brecon, though.  The pass, which has your photo and signature on it, is accepted by airport security for aircraft boarding purposes, even for Northern Ireland flights.

 

We also get free prescriptions, even in England (though you have to be given a voucher to recover your money from the WAG and it's not free at the point of purchase).   

[Steamport Southport]

Okay, National ones are 62 or whatever it is now. Most of the cities are 60.  

 

 

I would like go to the model shop by bus. Only trouble is the model shop closed down and the Council cut the bus service.

 

Loads of buses go to where my local model shop was, until Hattons moved to an industrial estate with no public transport links....

 

 

 

 

Jason

[TheSignalEngineer]

Loads of buses go to where my local model shop was, until Hattons moved to an industrial estate with no public transport links....

 

 

 

 

Jason

I used to walk round to see what Norman had got in when my daughter lived close to the old shop.

After she moved whenever I had to go to Liverpool by train the journey back was bus along Smithsdown Road, call in at the shop then walk round to Mosseley Hill for the local train towards Warrington Central and a connection home.

[CKPR]

The cost of hobbies cuts both ways - I'm 55 tomorrow, work in a well-paid profession, we own our house  and a couple of  cars bought S/H and both over 10 years old, the kids have left home, etc and yet I'm staggered at the prices, even when discounted, of new r-t-r  and r-t-p models. On the  other hand, my railway modelling is entirely based on kit-building and scratch building and increasingly, my kits and materials are coming from the S/H market and Ebay and my outlay on railway modelling is relatively minimal - I regard spending on something costing £50 as a very major purchase. All of which makes me wonder about who is going to take up the hobby given that previously entry-level r-t-r is so expensive and therefore I was really pleased to read the article in this months RM on the £20 micro layout  (DCC to boot !) by 16 year old Luke Noble.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

But cost perception is such an individual thing. I have tried explaining to friends who are outwardly sensible types that forking over the wedge for a season ticket to watch 22 millionaires kick a ball around verges on insanity. And all they have to show for it at season end is disappointment. For a fraction of the annual cost I have some model trains...

[polybear]

For a fraction of the annual cost I have some model trains...

 

...that, should you get bored with, you can sell on Ebay.  Try that with last years' season ticket

[The Johnster]

The cost of hobbies cuts both ways - I'm 55 tomorrow, work in a well-paid profession, we own our house  and a couple of  cars bought S/H and both over 10 years old, the kids have left home, etc and yet I'm staggered at the prices, even when discounted, of new r-t-r  and r-t-p models. On the  other hand, my railway modelling is entirely based on kit-building and scratch building and increasingly, my kits and materials are coming from the S/H market and Ebay and my outlay on railway modelling is relatively minimal - I regard spending on something costing £50 as a very major purchase. All of which makes me wonder about who is going to take up the hobby given that previously entry-level r-t-r is so expensive and therefore I was really pleased to read the article in this months RM on the £20 micro layout  (DCC to boot !) by 16 year old Luke Noble.

 

I think modeller of 'our' generation, who at an age where the price of everything is a bit startling and have been used to several decades of cheap models which are coming to an end due to market conditions, have a different perception of what an item should cost.  I still go into 'how much' default mode at wagons that cost over a tenner, coaches that cost over £30, and 0-6-0 tanks that cost over £50, having had over a year to get used to the idea!

 

RTR prices are often compared with the equivalent allowing for inflation of the Triang pacifc that cost lest than a fiver, or the HD one that wasn't much over that much, but the true comparison given the running quality and accuracy/detail of modern RTR is to compare with Bassett-Lowke and the like, not what came out of Margate or Binns Road.  There is no comparable RTR to that now to make the comparison with.  This comparison, were it possible, would level the playing field a bit; railway modelling is not a poor man's hobby.

 

Whether it's worth it or not is purely personal; it is if it's worth it to you whatever it cost.  I'm going to grit my teeth and try not to think about what I'm going to spend on a Bachmann 94xx when it comes out, but it'll be worth it to me.  As an example of what isn't, replacing my Hornby 2721 with a Southeastern kit and chassis for not much south of £200 and the faff/pleasure of building and finishing it to anything like modern RTR standard or even as good as the Hornby in order to get rid of a wrongly spaced chassis and plastic skirts beneath the tanks where there should be daylight, when I've done a bit of working up on this loco with real coal, brass turned chimney and safety valve cover, and a few other bits and pieces, um, isn't!

 

Not to me, anyway.

 

But a second hand finished and running one on 'Bay at the right price might be...

Edited October 15, 2018 by The Johnster

[Allegheny1600]

But cost perception is such an individual thing. I have tried explaining to friends who are outwardly sensible types that forking over the wedge for a season ticket to watch 22 millionaires kick a ball around verges on insanity. And all they have to show for it at season end is disappointment. For a fraction of the annual cost I have some model trains...

Speaking of "sport", a good mate was recently regaling me with stories of how much "good" mountain bikes cost nowadays!

HOW MUCH!?! (upwards of five figures and more).

You gotta be kidding, mate, talk about being taken for a ride.

 

And then, there's football shirts! Geez!

The world's gone mad.

[PMP]

Speaking of "sport", a good mate was recently regaling me with stories of how much "good" mountain bikes cost nowadays!

HOW MUCH!?! (upwards of five figures and more).

You gotta be kidding, mate, talk about being taken for a ride.

 

The world's gone mad.

Not really it’s horses (or bikes) for courses. Depending on what you want from the sport, you can spend as much or as little as you want. Some ‘big’ sums can get you a huge improvement, some big sums can get you marginal improvements. Spending on a new set of wheels gave me a huge improvement in ride/speed/weight, it was like riding a different, and far better bike, which with the new wheels it was. I could have walked into a high street bike shop and bought a complete bike for the money. It would have been a pretty cheap, low specification bike that probably wouldn’t last very well. However despite owning an ex race team bike, there’s no point I’m me covering it with carbon components, as I won’t see the benefit. The bike is a 1998 model and sensible upgrades have kept it high spec and suitable for my needs, without breaking the bank. As is often the case buying cheap items doesn’t always work, buying quality at a reasonable price can save money over the long term, especially if you don’t need to buy the latest spec model every year.

[The Johnster]

A mountain bike, as opposed to something bought for less than £100 in Tesco's that looks like a mountain bike because it has chunky tyres, is a complex piece of engineering, by which I mean that although the basic components are not rocket science, their design and manufacture is not far off that.  It must be both as lightweight as possible, as structurally strong as possible, and it's components have to work faultlessly and reliably while being covered in freezing mud and grit.  These are all mutually exclusive requirements unless very high quality materials and construction methods are used; ride around the block on one and then do the same on the Tesco special for the proof.  This is why they are expensive, but 5 figures is very top end and really the realm of professional competition; a tolerably good reliable off road bike that will give you an immense amount of fun in the hills can be had for under £1k.  

[brack]

"Large increases in cost with questionable increases in performance can be tolerated only in race horses and fancy women."

 

Lord Kelvin

[jjb1970]

A lot of hobbies reach a point where a whole part of the attraction seems to be lusting after extremely expensive equipment based on either marketing led hype or marginal performance gains (or a combination of both) or perhaps the appeal of buying equipment designed and engineered for professional use which is way beyond what amateurs need. Hobbies such as cycling, hi-fi, photography and to be honest most sports which have an equipment requirement fall into that category, the problem is separating the genuinely good stuff that can lay at least some reasonable justification for the high cost from over priced snake oil.

[Northmoor]

A lot of hobbies reach a point where a whole part of the attraction seems to be lusting after extremely expensive equipment based on either marketing led hype or marginal performance gains (or a combination of both) or perhaps the appeal of buying equipment designed and engineered for professional use which is way beyond what amateurs need. Hobbies such as cycling, hi-fi, photography and to be honest most sports which have an equipment requirement fall into that category, the problem is separating the genuinely good stuff that can lay at least some reasonable justification for the high cost from over priced snake oil.

That first sentence perfectly explains middle-aged-men-in-lycra.  It also explains why the previous generation of aspirational middle managers, played golf.

[The Johnster]

As with anything of this sort, the law of diminishing returns comes into force. and the difference between a £500 mountain bike and a £1.000 one is much greater than the difference between the £1k one and the £10k one!  But you have to set this against the fact that serious competition is often settled by very small margins and the extra £9k is essential to some people.

 

You don't see Mamils on mountain bikes as a rule, these deluded fools do the 'all the gear no idea' thing on road bikes, with drop handle bars and thin wheels.  These are pricey enough, but not as expensive as a really good mountain bike.  The cost comes when you get into serious club competition and need several of them, one for road, one for track, one for time trial and so on.

[jjb1970]

That first sentence perfectly explains middle-aged-men-in-lycra.  It also explains why the previous generation of aspirational middle managers, played golf.

Indeed, it's been the trend for a while that cycling seems to be the new golf for a certain segment of society. Probably to the benefit of those who genuinely love golf as a sport or recreational past time rather than as a means of social climbing.

[Lacathedrale]

£375 is well above the equivalent Hornby A3 or Hornby A4, it is double what you'd probably pay for those models. The Dapol Black Label A4 falls into that price but that is factory fitted with a lot of DCC functionality and has a metal body, and personally if looking at things strictly in terms of accuracy and fidelity to prototype I'm not sure it is better than the much cheaper Hornby alternative.

 

Just so you know, i took a hard look at my assumptions based on this reply and ended up looking online on eBay and found some cracking deals on used 00 gauge stuff, so my view has changed -  thank you.

[Allegheny1600]

I feel my comments on mountain bikes may have been taken out of context!

 

Let me explain, I was a very keen amateur cyclist for many years with both the CTC and the Derby Mercury (when based in Derby!) and I always like the 'rough stuff' so when mountain bikes were introduced, I was an early adopter although my very first ATB/MTB nearly caused me to give up cycling! 80 miles on a 40+Lb bike with fixed position handlebars HURT (I could ride 100+ miles easily in those days). So, I upgraded it before I could carry on, then got a lighter bike.

 

How does this affect model railways? Well, the cost of 'decent' mountain bikes has shot up by a massive percentage compared to model railways in the past 15-20 years and it appears that the "snake oil" is being applied with some vigour. Bikes costing £8k to £15k are fine if you're a Professional rider (they would surely receive such a machine?) but for amateurs, it's just ridiculous, surely?

 

If a HornBach loco cost say, £25-50 20 years ago, would you be happy paying £500-£1k now? It makes a £200 loco seem cheap by comparison.

[Lacathedrale]

Well, there is inflation and relative earning power vs time as one graph which I'm sure we could see would roughly match Tri-Ang Hornby of the 60's and 70's with Hornby Railroad/etc. of the present day.

 

The difference is that most 'new' models are being produced to higher levels of fidelity and with finer detail and more functionality than old ones - the difference is that now you are "forced" to pay for these benefits rather than having to resort to buying a lower-end model and optionally buying the detail parts/etc. yourself. I imagine the same as buying a Princess Coronation or a Princess Coronation with smoke unit + realistic chuffing sound in our Tri-Ang example.

[TheSignalEngineer]

As with anything of this sort, the law of diminishing returns comes into force. and the difference between a £500 mountain bike and a £1.000 one is much greater than the difference between the £1k one and the £10k one!  But you have to set this against the fact that serious competition is often settled by very small margins and the extra £9k is essential to some people.

 

You don't see Mamils on mountain bikes as a rule, these deluded fools do the 'all the gear no idea' thing on road bikes, with drop handle bars and thin wheels.  These are pricey enough, but not as expensive as a really good mountain bike.  The cost comes when you get into serious club competition and need several of them, one for road, one for track, one for time trial and so on.

The bike cost doesn't just finish with the purchase, the maintenance cost for heavy use can be very steep. We have just done a complete rebuild my wife's regular MTB and with servicing forks and rear shock, replacing bottom bracket, chain ring, cassette, chain, etc the cost was more than a cheap new bike. It would certainly have bought me about 3 or 4 new locos.

 

Having ridden mountain bikes at £500, £1K - £2K and £4K (the first and last not mine) I would concur with the diminishing returns. 

I was tasked with trying to improve the £500 one, but every tweak seemed to cause a new problem. it was a heavy ride and handling on technical routes was abysmal.

My regular full suspension MTB would cost about £2.5K new but runs very nicely on everything I want to use it for, which is mainly cross country and stony single track. For well paved tracks such as the old railway lines and towpaths I prefer a hardtail. I paid about £1K for mine and it is a super runner. You aren't wasting a lot of energy bouncing the rear suspension up and down as you pedal.

 

I had a few rides on expensive bikes but for what i can ride I didn't really notice any improvement in performance over my regular bike. I don't do severe rocky downhill Black routes needing body armour and full face helmets, so a bike fit for thsoe would be a waste.

 

On the road I mainly did a lot of touring but have given up that now. Averaging 50+ miles per day with camping gear etc would probably take its toll too quickly at my age. I have a road bike but in the sub £500 range which I use for the odd summer spin and sometimes take out on the train for a ride back home. 

[Guius]

A lot of hobbies reach a point where a whole part of the attraction seems to be lusting after extremely expensive equipment based on either marketing led hype or marginal performance gains (or a combination of both) or perhaps the appeal of buying equipment designed and engineered for professional use which is way beyond what amateurs need. Hobbies such as cycling, hi-fi, photography and to be honest most sports which have an equipment requirement fall into that category, the problem is separating the genuinely good stuff that can lay at least some reasonable justification for the high cost from over priced snake oil.

For some, and I probably mean mostly men, the ability to spend large sums on 'cool' activities such as mountain biking, golf, snowboarding, motorbikes etc. is seen as a measure of not only wealth and status but an indication of being committed and wanting to be taken seriously in such endeavours. We can all think of individuals who indulge in 'virtue signalling' by having permanently fixed bike racks on their cars roof to give an impression of constant physical activity to all those that care to take notice of such things.

The need to exhibit ones involvement in what is considered 'cool' and obversely disguise an interest in the 'uncool' stops a lot of people taking up our hobby. 

 

Guy

[The Johnster]

As of course does posting on a model railway forum.

 

In (I suspect) all of these cases, a balance can be struck between overtly spending massive amounts of cash on the best possible gear to show off, and getting the maximum amount of enjoyment out of whatever the pastime is.  Hobbies always generate an internal culture of those who are on the 'inside' which tends to exclude those who are not until they've learned the unwritten rules, jargon, and general basics, which can be gleaned from magazines, websites, and forums.  Not commenting on whether this is a good thing or not, except to say that anything that excludes and discourages is not good; it's just the way this stuff always works!  

Edited October 17, 2018 by The Johnster

[jjb1970]

One aspect of the model train hobby which is better than many other hobbies is that the nature of the hobby means there isn't the same incestuous relationship between the specialist hobby press and manufacturers of others. Clearly the model press have a relationship with the suppliers but it's nothing like the hi-fi, cycling etc press where there is a mutually advantageous relationship for magazines and suppliers to peddle the latest idea of the moment.