Satan's Goldfish Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Firstly an appologee for very long posts...... Right, I'm covering 5 seperate attempted projects in 1 topic here because they all have influence on each other. Some of these projects will progress a lot quicker than others so bare with me if something's not mentioned for a while but it saves me starting 5 seperate topics and then not posting anything for ages. Everything is based (however loosely) on rtr items. In the many coming months i'm hoping to cover: 9 FFA/FGA container flats 4 FSA container flats 5 FLA 'lowliner' container flats 4 sets of PJA 'Cartic' 4s and a number of 20', 30', and 40' containers My period of interest covers 1985 to 1999 with a strong GE influence. Working regularly with the guys and girls of Warren Lane means a definate over-exposure to container workings! Whilest most modern container flats are covered, there's still holes in era i'm interested in. Hornby's KFA's are a very useful addition and Dapol's pocket wagons just creep in at the end of the period, but others need a little more work and i'll cover below what i'm up to. I feel i should add that i'm not an amazing expert modeller like some of the very talented folk around here. As long as i have something at the end that's acceptable to my eye then i'm happy. Painting and labelling will be done by a very unlucky friend.... FFA/FGA There's 2 options here. There's the amazing Colin Craig kit, or there's the basic old Hornby/Triang flat. As nice as the Colin Craig kit is and i could probably put a good effort in to building them, there's a lot of work involved in making them, they're more expensive than i could justify spending to the wife, high levels of detail aren't overly important to me (i prefer watching stuff run), and a report back from Alan of Warren Lane fame said that their turning radius is not very tight which could be a problem if i end up with tight corners. Plus i already have a lot Hornby/Triang flats! After a lot of on and off searching over a very long time, i've managed to get hold of 2 sets of s-kits detailing parts for these flats. I'm planning on converting 9 wagons, 4 outers and 5 inners. I've had a quick read through the instructions and the main thing i think i will be doing different is fitting NEM pockets rather than re-fitting the big Hornby bumper couplings. FLA The RealTrack FLA 'Lowliner' pair is a fantastic model. The only issue for me is that the pairs were introduced in 2004 which is 5 years too late for me. The original FLA 'Lowliners' were introduced in the early 90s but were in sets of 5 (2 outers, 3 inners). After careful studying of prototype photo's and the RealTrack model I think i can see a way of creating an earlier 5 set that's close enough to be acceptable to my low standards! I have a couple of pairs of RealTrack FLAs already and there's another on it's way in the post. The picture below has a before and after effect using a little ms paint tweeking and has been useful to see what will need moving. The obvious things straight away are once the headstocks are removed to create the inners the container mounting points need moving to a centre the container on the wagon. Also the gap between the removed ends needs reducing to be similar to the fixed draw bar distance. Hopefully some short NEM draw bars to replace the tension lock couplers will sort that. FSA These are a a problem. Without thinking i looked at the old Hornby flat and thought if i just changed the bogies, made a new flat base, and added some FSA style sides then it'd be a quick job. So i ordered 4 pairs of y25 bogies. Then i looked at it a little closer, and the underside of them make it not that easy. I'm going to have to get good at working in plasticard and fast! I don't want to back out of this one as i've now spent money on the bogies, so the plan now is to create new underframes, deck, and sides from plasticard (but not container mount positions). The removed head stocks from the FLA's will hopefully tweak slightly and become FSA outer head stocks (the buffers look very similar if not the same, both types of wagon were made around the same time) I still need to think up a solution for the inner head stocks. The 1 wagons worth of leftovers from the S-kits FFA/FGA detailing pack should cover hand break wheels, air tanks, and container mounting points for 1 FSA. If that works then i'll get another detailing pack to do the other 3 (which technically should leave me with enough bits to do another 2 FFAs if i buy more wagons!) That's the plan anyway. You can see my first couple of rough attempts below. Lots of work to do! Containers As well as the container wagons themselves, I'm working on an alternative to the Heljan strips in the containers to work with the Heljan Container Terminal cranes on Warren Lane. This new system (of which the prototype has tested succesfully at Tonbridge a few weeks ago) should also allow tank-tainers to work with the Heljan cranes. For accurate repeated conversion i need to build some jigs for different container sizes. I've bought the wood for it, just haven't done it yet! Pictures to follow later when i've done some more work on it. PJA This is completely off from everything mentioned so far, but their construction is related so bare with me! I've always had a soft spot for the PJA 'cartic' 4s and have 4 pairs of the Hornby offering from many years ago. Unfortunately the Hornby offering is only a pair. The Cartic project is probably responsible for all of the above happening. A few years ago i worked on creating myself some drawings of the inners for the Cartics and got myself some sheet brass to cut them out of. The drawings and brass have been sitting around waiting for action for a while now! To complete it, i'd also need 8 more of the articulated inner wheel sets. The best place to get them is from old Hornby container flats! Again, sorry no pictures yet, but there will be in time... So we're full circle to why i'm creating 4 FSAs from four Hornby flats (i wanted the bogies for the PJAs but don't like throwing things away) and it's all increased from there. I'll update and add when i've managed to complete bits but i'm expecting it all to take a long time as i'm also juggling work and family life. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarrettTheThief Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 As getting intermoda; freight is important for me, I'll keep a close eye on this thread. Best of luck with these. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 Well after my initial post yesterday, the postman delivered a box with 2 mor FLA outers ready to donate their bodies to experimentation and a tool that should help with the container modifications. I'd like if possible to have the FLAs and some Containers ready to paint by Train West in April, and possibly even the FFA/FGA sets depending how much progress i manage to make. For my sins I also need to fit in building new control panels for Warren Lane, the first of which i would like finished by then too so lots to do and a lingering cold to shift first! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Will be watching the FLA part with interest - I think if you wanted a 'spot on' model then there's so many differences between the builds that you might as well scratchbuild, but I think your idea to capture 'the essence' of them with some simple kitbashing is a good one. Ref FSA/FTA, some folk have also used the Bachmann IFA as a basis for conversions, as under the skin they are somewhat similar, both being from the same builder at similar times - the hardest part I'd guess is stretching the deck outboard of the bogies? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 Will be watching the FLA part with interest - I think if you wanted a 'spot on' model then there's so many differences between the builds that you might as well scratchbuild, but I think your idea to capture 'the essence' of them with some simple kitbashing is a good one. Ref FSA/FTA, some folk have also used the Bachmann IFA as a basis for conversions, as under the skin they are somewhat similar, both being from the same builder at similar times - the hardest part I'd guess is stretching the deck outboard of the bogies? With the FLA's, if you have a picture of a twin set along side a 5 set then loads of differences do leap out (see post 149 here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/23763-warren-lane/page-6 ) There's a very obvious extra pair of hole on the head stock of the 5 set but if you look at the twin set those holes are plated over anyway. Respray covers livery difference which seem to make most of the visual impact. There's some extra bits and pieces in the Real Track box for detailing and i think the container locator guides on the 5 set should be easy enough to create from bashing them. The big modification will be the centre cross brace on the wagon deck, it's off centre on the twins to get them in position with the container centre but that will need shifting on the inner wagons. I'm in 2 minds whether to do that or not, I'm only wanting mounting points in the 40ft positions so as long as there's no visible marking for 20ft positions (covered in grime maybe!) then the fact it's not quite in the right place hopefully won't notice. For the FSA's, as you said for the FLA's the aim is to 'capture the essence'. Studying prototype pictures, the wagon is not symetrical in bogie locations under the containers along it's length unlike the fractionally shorter FTA. The Hornby FGA flat is close enough to the right length so i'm just re-using Hornbys bogie mount positions. With containers on it there's about 8mm left over at one end for the head stocks to fit straight on to the Hornby flat rather than making an extension to the deck length. IF i was to do an FTA too (which has crossed my mind) then the main difference would be cutting 8mm out of the middle of the Hornby flat first to reduce the length of the wagon. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) Just another one on FLA bracing, Like this then it being wrong would look ver obvious: http://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/UKRailRollingstock/F/FLA-lowliner-Freightliner/16977302_xGpdFw#!i=1467899859&k=pqMfVbb&lb=1&s=A However if it's coloured and weathered like this then it will be a lot less noticeable: http://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/UKRailRollingstock/F/FLA-lowliner-Freightliner/16977302_xGpdFw#!i=1284126788&k=Z7XK9q5&lb=1&s=A So it turns out this may not be a bad plan! Head stock removed, a small piece of plasticard will be required to cover the coupling hole and run the deck out to where it's supposed to be. Container mounting spigots filed down. There's a pair of extra fins on the deck just in from the outter bogie, these too have been removed. And finally, a quick bit of black permanent marker over the centre spigot yellow areas. It's a very basic conversion but it think it will work without shifting the centre brace. RealTrack have extra single spigots in the box which can be refitted in the new locations once the plasticard has been fitted at the end. Add the bright yellow locating triangles at each end of the deck and it's done! A much more competant modeller than myself might want to take on shifting that middle brace but i'll take any win i can get! 2 more to go. The most awkward part next will be fitting a rotating NEM pocket in the other end of one of the inner wagons for the middle wagon in the set to be able to couple to the outer pairs. Edited February 28, 2013 by Satan's Goldfish 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share Posted March 1, 2013 and here's 5. Looks the part to me anyway. End plates and container guides to fit today, NEM bars ordered from ebay, then it's off for a paint job. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share Posted March 1, 2013 Covering a couple of other issues first of all: PJA 4s here's what i've got so far, some ends, some brass, and some drawings! Containers Here's the first succesful modified Bachmann container for use with Heljan cranes. It's a lot clearer to see on here how they work with the cranes. Standard Heljan solution is a bar with 2 raised round parts a certain distance apart. I'll give more details on how i did this one when i make another. This one just needs the roof repainting now. FLA I've spent more time with these today and other than coupling bars for the centre vehicle i think i'm done with the modelling work. They'll soon be off for painting then i won't see them again until Train West in April where if they've come out ok they'll debut on Warren Lane. The first couple of triangular guides were made by filing to shape some spare bits in the RealTrack box. When i realised i didn't have enough bits to do them all i made the rest from folded plasticard which was filed to shape once stuck to the wagons. Adding the triangles to the outers has meant the mounting points on them didn't line up either so i've filed them down too. With possible use on Warren Lane i decided not to re add any mounting points, I'm just not that accurate with the crane! These mods do make them strictly for 40' boxes only now, 20s just won't line up, but that shouldn't be a problem. That is all SG 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share Posted March 1, 2013 Just found these: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/fla/h3F035032#h3f035032 Does anyone know when the FLAs gained the raised triangular guides? I think i could have saved myself a long tedious job if i'd seen these sooner. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
d winpenny Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Somebody's certainly been busy, david 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted March 2, 2013 Author Share Posted March 2, 2013 FLA I'm quite suprised with how quickly these have progressed. However, mr paint job pointed out that with the brake wheels in the position they are for twins that they were in the way for putting the RfD end graphics on. Then i realised i've completely forgotten brake wheels on all of them! So i've stuck the Wheels removed from all the head stocks on in roughly the correct positions. Somebody with a steadier hand may be inclined to add more bake gear detail between the frames associated with these wheels too, but not me! The main but still subtle difference that this has presented though is the outers for the 5 sets (with respect to brake gear) are a mirror image to the Twins. But rather than muck about moving brake cylinders i've just put the hand brake wheels in the wrong places instead. Unless you had a prototype pic infront of you it's doubtful anyone would notice. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WOMBATTY Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 Hi Matt The older 5 car sets do look good, and I think you have captured them very well. They will look great behind A pair of Rfd 86's pulling into Warren Lane's receiving siding. I think they look better without containers on.. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted March 2, 2013 Author Share Posted March 2, 2013 Are you sure they wouldn't look better behind a Belgian 90?..... Lots to have done before April there Alan ;-) Seeing pictures like that i'm torn between whether they'd look better running with a pair of KFA/FSA/FGA or a pair of pocket wagons. To proper throw it back in time we need some of these: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lowlinercontainer/h209ee80c#h2dd40168 They look like new FEA/B spine wagons but with FGA ends, 40 or 60 feet options, and spectacular bogies! Anyone out there throw any light on how many there where and how long they were used for? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted March 3, 2013 Author Share Posted March 3, 2013 Containers Productive day today. Jigs have been built for drilling 20, 30, and 40ft containers in the correct place. Standard Heljan bars require 2 5mm holes 49mm apart from their centres and that's what these jigs are also set to. Unfortunately (or fortunately as it saves you from lots of pictures!) while i was making these i didn't have a camera on me! But the 30ft test container i've made hasn't been as solidly made as the others as it's an old Hornby one so i can give you a rough idea of the process. Firstly, sit the container in the jig: Then turn over and drill through the 2 5mm holes to go through the roof of the container: For the metal contacts, short but very ferous m6 sized bolt are fitted: The 5mm hole is tapped with an m6 tap. The plastics used in the containers is soft enough that on the modern containers i could do this with just the bare tap as shown, however the old Hornby container was quite tough and did need a little persuation so a proper tap and dye set maybe useful if some one was planning a 70s themed terminal rather than just having a single m6 tap! Once tapped, bolts fit in very easily. These ones are sticking out the top just to show easily what to do. The bottom doesn't come off this box to do it properly from the other side. Once the bolts were fitted to the correct depth in the other containers a little dab of super glue was added to keep them in place. A slight error was made in the construction of the 20ft jig and the bolts are about 1mm off centre. Once painted the same colour of the roof this will hardly notice though. Also with this method i was able to try converting tank-tainers. The heads of the bolts need cutting of for this and it was a little fiddly around the top detail getting the thread in a tiny bit of a turn at a time with pliers. But they look like they should work, testing will be in April. They'll be sent off with the FLAs during the week for painting. Nice cheesy grin Alan: 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted March 4, 2013 Author Share Posted March 4, 2013 Score! Not that i get side track easily but i've found a little more on the unusual 70s flats i mentioned a couple of posts ago. http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/BR_wagon_research/message/18?var=1 This suggests that the 42ft 4 axle'd pair were in use until 1993. And a little digging has found the diagrams in the Barrowmore books ( http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/Prototype.html ) which i've set a link to somewhere but now can't find! So for a slightly different pair of 'FGA' (or FHA) when i order another S-kits detailing pack to do the FSAs i might try my hand at those instead. Another wagon type for the projects :-) 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted March 6, 2013 Author Share Posted March 6, 2013 (edited) The nem coupling bars arrived earlier for the FLAs. They're too long and too chunky :-( I'm not going to let this get me down though. I'm going to vent my frustration at them with a file >:-D Edited March 6, 2013 by Satan's Goldfish 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted March 8, 2013 Author Share Posted March 8, 2013 Just quickly before they go, here's the 5 set with brake wheels in the 'correct' places. Still problems with effective coupling bars but Alan said he'll take a look at that when they get to him. Right, i'm off to the post office. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium GWRPhil Posted March 19, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 19, 2013 looks like you've been exceedingly busy. i like the jigs they are very impressive and i'm looking forward to the tank tainers test run in april. fingers crossed. looking forward to april also so that i can get my containers converted also. not that long to trainwest now. any ideas for sunday after four yet. something to top the belgian 90 and dbs 67? i was thinking maybe tornado (steam engine) with some gwr mk1's coming into receiving and then running round and taking train off in opposite direction. only problem with that is best couplings on Bachmann mk1 are the 'pipe' connectors which are semi permanent. maybe i'll have to wait for that until the current extension is completed? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted March 22, 2013 Author Share Posted March 22, 2013 Well my chipped 90 chassis is no longer under Belgian it's under a bland 'Mainline IC' body instead of which i've seen many pictures pulling containers and is in some of the pictures further up. I think the most garish stuff i've got could be some old bright yellow Hornby tankers and a couple of other 'speedlink' items that could create something hideous....There's also always the bad paint 166 DMU, it's got better coupling now! The 'Container' part of this might get advanced a bit further soon with the creation of some custom boxes that initial art work is being created for. Yet another joint effort where Alan gets to do most of the fiddly work. Thanks Alan :-) (How many spare 30ft Boxes do you have?!) Keep thinking i should start on the S-kits FFA/FGAs..... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted April 19, 2013 Author Share Posted April 19, 2013 ... After some thinking i've finally started on the FFA/FGA wagons. These may take a while! As a recap, i'm doing a set of 5 and a set of 4. As i go through each stage i'll get plenty of pictures so hopefully the next person to attempt these can avoid my mistakes. First on the S-kits instructions is the 'Destruction' section, starting off with removing the bogies. the instruction say to hold one end of the rivet with a screw driver and work the other end down by hand with a 6mm bit. I found it just as easy to use the Hornby container locating lugs to pin it still against the edge of the wife's new coffee table then go at the bottom of the rivets with a hand drill. 1 bogie off, 17 to go..... And a little over an hour they're all off: Next on the destruction list is the lugs that stop the bogies from moving too far and the old Hornby container locating lugs. My method was to use a junior hacksaw blade then a fine filing to smooth them off. 4 bogie stops per wagon x 9 wagons = 36 to remove and clean. 12 container locators per wagon x 9 wagons = 108 to remove and clean! About an hour and a half to do them all. Next up is the bogies. The big lumps of plastic sticking out of the front holding the coupling and the back to hit the now removed rotation stops need to be cut off. Easiest done with the wheels removed: About 30 min to do these 4, these are the only 4 that i've changed the wheel sets on so far too. In the instructions it recommends Jackson 9mm disc wheels, i can't remember what the replacements are that i've picked up but i'll need to order a lot more! The difference between them and the old Hornby/Triang Pizza cutters is very noticable and i think once the bogie mounts are reduced later for a more accurate ride height that the Hornby/Triang flange might interfere with the wagon too. A lot more bogies to chop up yet, i'll get around to them another day. A quick word on the FLAs, they are still away for painting and decals and unfortunately weren't ready for TrainWest but there were other projects needing completion before the show (The amazing 87101 'Stephenson' and 86633 'Wulfruna' if you've not seen the Warren Lane thread) but i am informed they will be finished very soon. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
d winpenny Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 Looking good keep it up, david Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark P Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 I will be following this with interest. Thanks for posting. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted April 23, 2013 Author Share Posted April 23, 2013 A little progress report. Finished triming all the FFA/FGA bogies. Next job is to reduce the bogie mounting points on the wagons. Mr S-kits recommends making a jig to file them down too. 18 mounting points taking 2mm+ off each one, that's a lot of filing! It might be quicker to drill them down, ideally with a pillar drill so the stop can fixed at the right height for every wagon to turn out identical. I may have to treat the wife nice so i can get one before i proceed further.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satan's Goldfish Posted April 23, 2013 Author Share Posted April 23, 2013 Score! She's taking me to get a pillar drill tomorrow :-) 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium GWRPhil Posted April 23, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 23, 2013 Score! She's taking me to get a pillar drill tomorrow :-) Very cool there. I've yet to pursuade Steph of the value of a pillar drill. Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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