Kirdon models

[random]

Thank you for the interesting adverts for Kirdon. I have never seen the motor bogie. A mentioned elsewhere in the thread, there were at least two versions of the Kirdon 10000. What I assume is the later one has finer grills than the earlier when compared side-by-side.

 

Is this possibly the Kirdon N2?

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121087431635?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

 

A motor that is obviously inspired by Hornby Dublo but different with the commutator turned the other way. The chassis is also like a Hornby Dublo one but not the same. Hamblings wheels possibly? The magnet and pole pieces look very similar to Hornby Dublo. I believe that Kirdon used the same body casting as the Trackmaster (later Tri-ang) model - did they buy up a surplus stock of body castings I wonder when Tri-ang stopped making it I wonder. Another metal cast N2 was made by Gaiety. A quick Google image search confirms that the body casting here does not resemble either Gaiety or Hornby Dublo. The Gaiety model also has a longitudinal motor like their Pannier tank and is completely different to that here.

[Il Grifone]

Thank you for the interesting adverts for Kirdon. I have never seen the motor bogie. A mentioned elsewhere in the thread, there were at least two versions of the Kirdon 10000. What I assume is the later one has finer grills than the earlier when compared side-by-side.

 

Is this possibly the Kirdon N2?

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121087431635?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

 

A motor that is obviously inspired by Hornby Dublo but different with the commutator turned the other way. The chassis is also like a Hornby Dublo one but not the same. Hamblings wheels possibly? The magnet and pole pieces look very similar to Hornby Dublo. I believe that Kirdon used the same body casting as the Trackmaster (later Tri-ang) model - did they buy up a surplus stock of body castings I wonder when Tri-ang stopped making it I wonder. Another metal cast N2 was made by Gaiety. A quick Google image search confirms that the body casting here does not resemble either Gaiety or Hornby Dublo. The Gaiety model also has a longitudinal motor like their Pannier tank and is completely different to that here.

It could well be. I cannot recall ever having seen one. It's definitely not either the HD or Gaiety castings (the former seems to be copied from the latter, as it perpetrates the dimensional errors). The Trackmaster/Tri-ang casting is different and similar to the one here. The chassis is, of course, clockwork and bears little resemblance to this one, which seems Dublo inspired The wheels certainly appear to be Hamblings.

 

I'll try to post pictures of the three versions over the weekend.

 

EDIT Obviously Gaiety copied from Dublo (It even shares identity ((4)6917) with the Dublo LMS version). The photos are on the way....

Edited June 8, 2013 by Il Grifone

[5050]

I've also now borrowed the 1957 volume of MRN from the club library to try and get some follow-up from the previous ads and found these interesting items.  The 'Railcar' (Derby Lightweight DMU) has now appeared with its 'Hi-Fi' 8-wheel drive.  What was this - and did it work?  There is also now no mention of the Diesel Shunter kit which seems to have vanished into the abyss.

 

Also in one of the issues was the editorial revue of the 10000 kit along with photos of the components.  Interesting to note that they say that the 'cement' can be used as a filler.  How bad was the fit of the parts to need filler?!

[roythebus]

The motor bogie design seems to have been copied by MTK many years later, with an X04 mounted over the wheels driving a drive shaft through large spur gears.

[Xerces Fobe2]

The motor bogie design seems to have been copied by MTK many years later, with an X04 mounted over the wheels driving a drive shaft through large spur gears.

 

What my late friend Colin Massingham of MTK copying motor bogie designs!

 

XF

[BernardTPM]

Following my 1956 Model Railway News thread, here are the adverts for the Kirdon items.

 

The last photo shows that the Kirdon diesel shunter did actually exist (as a sample if nothing else!) and the 10000 model is running on Hornby Dublo 3-rail

So the Kirdon shunter wasn't the normal English Electric '350hp' after all, but a North British 200hp 0-4-0 type (11700-2, but also built as industrials).

[5050]

So the Kirdon shunter wasn't the normal English Electric '350hp' after all, but a North British 200hp 0-4-0 type (11700-2, but also built as industrials).

Sorry about being a bit late with this!  If you look at the posts above you will see that (nominally anyway) they did both.  Not very common though these days......................

 

If they ever were!

Edited October 1, 2013 by 5050

[5050]

I've now got some more MRN volumes from the club library and here are a couple more Kirdon ads with some interesting 'stuff' in them.

 

The 2 bridges are shown and also the US boxcars including some editorial about them.  Can't say I've ever knowingly seen any.

 

Note the 'half wave controller' ad.  Half wave was the next big thing in controller technology and was introduced simultaneously by several makes, H&M, Kirdon, ABC for instance.  Rumour had it that it ruined your motors but obviously it didn't although some are a bit noisy with it.  Not suitable for can motors though (I think!).  Superceded by transistors of course.

 

The David Nixon advert is an interesting use of celebrity endorsement.  DN was a television icon in the 50's and 60's, a magician with regular TV shows.  He was a railway modeller and also appeared in Peco adverts for early Streamline track.

[Il Grifone]

I wonder how many box car kits they sold at 27/6d? (Around £30 in today's money!)

 

Half wave rectification will tame most motors* (even better teamed with H&M's 'Variwave' and a variable transformer).  There was a fear (seemingly unfounded) that it would demagnetise the motor, but it does make some noisy and/or run hot, but then so do PWM transistor controller's (without the option of switching it out).

 

* Even Lima pancakes and high geared Tri-ang.

[5050]

Interesting how the above Kirdon advert features a Gaiety pannier, not a Kirdon locomotive product!

Good spot!  Not noticed that.

[Evanelpus]

 The 'Railcar' (Derby Lightweight DMU) has now appeared with its 'Hi-Fi' 8-wheel drive.  What was this - and did it work?

The "Hi-Fi" drive was pretty well a direct copy of the early Athearn "Hi-F" drive that incorporated a centrally mounted motor (Romford) driving a long shaft on which rubber bands propelled all the bogie wheels. Lone Star used the same system. The Kirdon system didn't work that well in practise, but had the advantage of being supported by 3 posts rather than 2, so it was possible to shorten the shaft and drive the wheels on one bogie only, thus reducing friction and making the drive more efficient. It was only driving 2 cars anyway.

I have 3 Kirdon 10000's one of which is totally original, another is pretty much orginal, only the original owner modified the drive by slinging the motor over the driving bogie rather than it being mounted on the rigid frames as original. the motor bogie side of the chassis was replaced with a fibre cutout to accomodate the motor. This model runs very well like this, much better than the original model, also added by the fact the original wheels have been replaced with romfords. My third 10000 has a rather nice hand built brass chassis and bogies, incorporating the original white metal sideframes. This has a japanese machima motor with gearboxes and runs the best of all, whilst still looking totally original.

[Evanelpus]

Here's a photo of the "Hi-Fi" drive for the Kirdon DMU.

[5050]

Evanelpus, thank you for bringing fresh input to the collectable forum, please others with similar collections as myself, post!

Yes, excellent post, good to see the actual 'beast' at last.  What is the motor?  It looks quite good for the time.  I've got some more Kirdon ads to post, some now from 1950.  Hope to get them done next week now.

 

If you've got more stuff Evanelplus - please share it!!

[Il Grifone]

I've not been all that lucky with belt drives, which tend to suffer from insufficient speed reduction, in my experience.

 

The Athearn Budd railcar that I have runs well, or at least it did when it had belts. I obtained some from the States but they didn't last very long. ( I got this cheaply - power car and dummy from a dealer in toy die-cast cars, who said he didn't like trains????!!!!    I heard someone say yesterday that they didn't like the Great Western - I couldn't understand this either!)

 

My Lone Star stock also needs new belts - these went like scalded cats - another reason for Treblo-O-Lectric curves being a generous one foot radius perhaps.

 

I also have a Marx F3A (rather crude and the two ridiculously short coaches that came with it ended up in the bin). This had a motor (cheapo can type) on a long shaft and four belts. The motor expired (I suspect due to an allergy to 12V - it was wound for 6V I think) and somehow the shaft got bent - probably because the whole thing falls to pieces without the belts and repair was not deemed worthwhile.

[random]

The motor in the DMU is a Romford Phanton. They have concealed coil brush springs that are rather difficult to adjust for brush pressure. Those I have come across tend to need remagnetising as they run rather hot. There is a useful diagram of some elderly motors near the top of this thread here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/14256-what-make-is-this-motor/.

[5050]

The motor in the DMU is a Romford Phanton. They have concealed coil brush springs that are rather difficult to adjust for brush pressure. Those I have come across tend to need remagnetising as they run rather hot. There is a useful diagram of some elderly motors near the top of this thread here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/14256-what-make-is-this-motor/.

Thanks for the link, not seen that thread before.  I'm sure I have details in Old MRN ads of even more motors than those mentioned.  Of course, some may be the same motor branded differently!

 

And thanks for the heads-up on the motor being a Phantom.  Here's an advert for it.

Edited October 28, 2013 by 5050

[Il Grifone]

37/4d was lots of real money in 1954 - enough to buy a Tri-ang 3F 0-6-0T.

[Evanelpus]

Thanks to the members that commented on my photo, I have a very extensive collection of rare and unusual models (not just British) and believe I may have the largest OO Farish collection in Australia, maybe even the Southern Hemisphere! I'd be happy to post more photos and info, but alas my digital camera is kaput, so I need to get a new one. Great site, hope to check out many more interesting posts. Anyone else interested in 1940's/50's french HO bronze?

[Evanelpus]

Something more to tempt you: My Farish collection as of a few years ago. It has grown since then! Added bonus: my 3-rail Prairie.

[alfsboy]

This is interesting .I dont collect old models but its certainly part of my childhood seeing the ads in the mags so to speak .Stuff like this should be collected .I am always drawn back to "nerds ,anoracks ,twats and nothing better to do brigade " who taped every program on TV and or radio .They preserved priceless treasures but that was only  to be appreciated years later .Any part of mans history should be  preserved and collated,the good the bad and the non running  .its not our job to judge its value .Thats for others to decide further down the line .As for Ebay crap .Its not anyones place to moan ,bully humiliate or deride what is sold on Ebay  or what price it is .Every transaction is  an individual deal between buyer and seller who may both place a far greater value on this "crap" than others .

Martin .

Now ducking behind the sofa  and    Doctor Who is not even on .

[5050]

Something more to tempt you: My Farish collection as of a few years ago. It has grown since then! Added bonus: my 3-rail Prairie.Picture 321.jpgPicture 317.jpgPicture 325.jpg

That's amazing!!

 

And you've now got more??!!

 

Did they send all the surplus GF stock to Oz?

 

I do remember Jennings (I think) selling off bodies and spares in the late 50's.

Edited October 29, 2013 by 5050

[Guest spet0114]

Are the red and green-painted GP5's factory issue, or a DIY repaint?

[Evanelpus]

5050: most of my collection has come from the UK! There was a model supplier in the 50's called Hearns Hobbies which did import Farish into Australia, it's surprising what turns up when you least expect it. My Spam-can with the Golden Arrow insignia came from Spain!

spet0114: Both the colourfull GP5's are repaints, and not good ones at that! The green one has even been converted to EM gauge!

 

The 3-Rail Prairie is an interesting beastie though. If one looks hard, one can see a plate underneath the 3-rail skid which connects the skid to one of the plunger pickups, which the one in question has been cut down. This plate is stamped out, not machined or filed, so was it an after-market piece made by farish for this very purpose? Plus, the screws holding the skid on are regular farish screws. The jury is out as to whether it's a modification by Eames/W&H/GEM/Bonds/Reidpath etc or by Farish's own hand.

[random]

Kirdon box car. Wood with fine metal overlays for the body. Has sprung bogies. Not sure if this kit is complete.

 

[5050]

So they did actually exist.  Are you going to build it or leave it in parts for posterity?