Locomotive driving wheels

[Guest]

In another thread, I've seen locomotive driving wheels being made with 3D Printed centres fitted into steel tyres turned to the correct profile. This was, admittedly, 2mm scale, but has anyone tried/is anyone trying this in S?

[decauville1126]

Although not for 1:64/S scale, when I needed some 'special' centres for a 4mm scale P4 loco my son drew them in cad. No allowance was made for either the axle bore which was drawn dead axle size, or the inside diameter of the Gibson tyres, again drawn dead size. The first set was printed by Shapeways in Frosted Ultra Detail and they fitted perfectly and ran true in terms of both concentricity and (lack of) wobble. I later messed one up so another set was printed by another company and these were again fine.

 

So providing you have the tyres to hand and know your proposed axle diameter, it's a good way to produce centres. There are the usual concerns about resolution and surface finish, but once painted and weatherhed a tad they seem fine.

[Guest]

Although not for 1:64/S scale, when I needed some 'special' centres for a 4mm scale P4 loco my son drew them in cad. No allowance was made for either the axle bore which was drawn dead axle size, or the inside diameter of the Gibson tyres, again drawn dead size. The first set was printed by Shapeways in Frosted Ultra Detail and they fitted perfectly and ran true in terms of both concentricity and (lack of) wobble. I later messed one up so another set was printed by another company and these were again fine.

 

So providing you have the tyres to hand and know your proposed axle diameter, it's a good way to produce centres. There are the usual concerns about resolution and surface finish, but once painted and weatherhed a tad they seem fine.

 

Many thanks for that. The fact that you managed to achieve this in the very exacting standards of P4 is very encouraging for the slighter larger scale. I'm having the axles and tyres made for me by a small engineering company in Sweden. Once these are to hand, I'll give this a try.

[Guest]

I think I may be starting to get the hang of this 3D lark. Rendering of a 68½" Boxpok driver - 15" throw equalling 30" cylinder stroke. Axle and tyre added for clarity (won't be in the final print and that flange looks a bit undersize to me but hey, what the hell).

 

 

(Edit to insert MISSING WORD! Dammit, I used to be a copy editor/proof reader and I can't proof read my own stuff...)

 

(Second edit: updated image.)

Edited May 30, 2013 by Guest

[Horsetan]

Many thanks for that. The fact that you managed to achieve this in the very exacting standards of P4 is very encouraging for the slighter larger scale. I'm having the axles and tyres made for me by a small engineering company in Sweden. Once these are to hand, I'll give this a try.

David: could I be cheeky and ask for your help in dealing with Brimalm? Some months ago, I tried to buy a centrifugal clutch from them, but their web shop seems to have no facility to pay them, and when I e-mailed them there was no reply.....!

Edited May 28, 2013 by Horsetan

[Guest]

David: could I be cheeky and ask for your help in dealing with Brimalm? Some months ago, I tried to buy a centrifugal clutch from them, but their web shop seems to have no facility to pay them, and when I e-mailed them there was no reply.....!

 

No problem at all. PM sent. Pick up and we'll take it from there.

[Horsetan]

Wonderful, thanks!

[flubrush]

I think I may be starting to get the hang of this 3D lark. Rendering of a 68½" Boxpok driver - 15" throw equalling 30" cylinder stroke. Axle and tyre added for clarity (won't be in the final print and that flange looks a bit undersize to me but hey, what the hell).

 

 David,

 

I'm coming into this thread a bit late - I missed the start in March.

 

But you may be interested in the fact that the S scale society in the UK provides ready turned tyres - probably a bit cheaper than your specially made ones.  There is one of 5' 7" diameter which would be close to your requirements - about half way down this web page

 

http://www.s-scale.org.uk/wheels.htm

 

Also for axles,  0.125" or 3mm silver steel will do very well.  It comes straight and round and accurate to size from metal suppliers and only needs to be cut to length.  With plastic centres,  a solid axle is all that is required.   Also you might want to be prepared to finish turn the completed wheel true if the 3D printed centre is not completely concentric.

 

I'm making my own S scale wheels at the moment,  but cutting them out of brass with a CNC mill.   Here's a picture of an early experiment.  The centre is for a four foot diameter wheel for a Caledonian 498 class 0-6-0 dock shunter.

 

 

I've now got access to the original drawing for the locomotive wheels,  so I'm now re-doing the code for the wheel cutting.  My original code was based on trying to assess the spoke shapes from pictures which usually entails a lot of guesswork.

 

I use split axle pickup so solid metal wheels are ideal for this.

 

I look forward to seeing how your project progresses.

 

Jim.

Edited May 28, 2013 by flubrush

[Guest]

That's some nice work, Jim, though I don't envy you filing those spokes into final shape (I assume that's how you'll be doing it).

 

Tyres. I've taken a look at the society page but I'm not a member so can't get at them. One thing: I don't possess a lathe. I'm sure many others are in the same boat so what you say about the availability of these tyres might well nudge someone into giving S a go. And rightly so. There has been some superb modelling in the scale and I would like to see that continue. What I'd like to see happen is a little more help being given to the beginner by way of parts, etc. 

 

On the question of running true, post no.2 covers that so I think I'll be okay. We're running with two different manufacturing methods here and that's good. Mine's the quickest but the result of yours may turn out to be the more durable. We don't know how much breakdown of the plastic used in the 3D stuff will occur with time so we're flying a little blind on that one. I'm happy to take the risk.

 

Do let us see the results of your work. I am intrigued.

[flubrush]

That's some nice work, Jim, though I don't envy you filing those spokes into final shape (I assume that's how you'll be doing it).

 

 

I could generate Gcode to do the rounding of the spoke edges but it might be easier to do it by hand.   I think it will still need a fair bit of experimentation until I get the result I want.

 

Tyres. I've taken a look at the society page but I'm not a member so can't get at them. One thing: I don't possess a lathe. I'm sure many others are in the same boat so what you say about the availability of these tyres might well nudge someone into giving S a go. And rightly so. There has been some superb modelling in the scale and I would like to see that continue. What I'd like to see happen is a little more help being given to the beginner by way of parts, etc. 

 

 

You want to join the society.    We have several members from countries other than the UK.

 

The problem the society has in providing parts is in trying to cater for the wide range of interests of its members.  A survey carried out a year or two ago showed that the interests of society members covered a very large number of the UK railway companies,  as well as Irish,  European, North American, African,  New Zealand,  Australian and Malaysian prototypes.    With a membership of around the 110 mark,  this means that the numbers interested in particular items can be quite low and it is difficult to raise enough interest to make the production of a part or a kit an economic possibility.   The society attempts to provide a generic range of parts which can be used or modified by a wide range of the members,   but S scale modellers should be prepared to have to scratchbuild a lot of their modelling.

 

On the question of running true, post no.2 covers that so I think I'll be okay. We're running with two different manufacturing methods here and that's good. Mine's the quickest but the result of yours may turn out to be the more durable. We don't know how much breakdown of the plastic used in the 3D stuff will occur with time so we're flying a little blind on that one. I'm happy to take the risk.

 

 

Have you thought about using the 3D process for producing a master to use in lost wax casting?   This would possibly provide a solution to durability and might be cheaper than 3D printing all your wheel centres if you require a large number of wheels.    but you would need a lathe to finish off the brass centres.

 

Do let us see the results of your work. I am intrigued.

 

I've got several other projects on the go at the moment,  but i hope to get back to coding forf the wheels someting in June.

 

Jim.

[Guest]

The plot thickens with all wheels in place. Just need the rest of the loco, now.   Again, axles and tyres are there for clarity. I'd planned 5'8½" drivers on 6' centres and it clearly works; there's room enough for brake gear there. Next stage will be the chassis proper.

 

 

 

Since I now seem to be going off-topic in my own topic (Is that a first?), I think I'd better start something else somewhere else. I'll let you know...

 

 

[Phil Copleston]

The problem the society has in providing parts is in trying to cater for the wide range of interests of its members.  A survey carried out a year or two ago showed that the interests of society members covered a very large number of the UK railway companies,  as well as Irish,  European, North American, African,  New Zealand,  Australian and Malaysian prototypes.    With a membership of around the 110 mark,  this means that the numbers interested in particular items can be quite low and it is difficult to raise enough interest to make the production of a part or a kit an economic possibility.   

 

Have you thought about using the 3D process for producing a master to use in lost wax casting?   This would possibly provide a solution to durability and might be cheaper than 3D printing all your wheel centres if you require a large number of wheels.    but you would need a lathe to finish off the brass centres.

 

 

Actually Jim, I think our diversity of prototype interests is a strength in our Society. It would be sooooo tedious if we were all modelling the same thing.

 

Diversity of outlook spawns dynamic solutions to problems, for which the S scale modelling fraternity has always been noted. Similarly, the challenges of scratchbuilding and the need to be self-reliant and inventive are real positives in my book, which also makes S scale a magnet for those in the hobby of that bent. And long may it continue! 

 

On the wheels issue and 3D printing: I'm with you on that one, Jim. The proper name for the process is 'Rapid Prototyping', of course, which gives the lie to its original purpose - the rapid production of masters for lost-wax casting. This ought be be the best use for 3D printing as a stage in the production of brass loco wheel centres. On their own, I can't see that 3D printed plastic wheel centres would be robust enough for the rigures of protracted layout operation.

[ScottW]

On the wheels issue and 3D printing: I'm with you on that one, Jim. The proper name for the process is 'Rapid Prototyping', of course, which gives the lie to its original purpose - the rapid production of masters for lost-wax casting. This ought be be the best use for 3D printing as a stage in the production of brass loco wheel centres. On their own, I can't see that 3D printed plastic wheel centres would be robust enough for the rigures of protracted layout operation.

 

It will be interesting to see how printed plastic wheels last the test of time. I was quite surprised to hear that someone has actually produced a gun, that fires an actual bullet, using the Rapid Prototyping process. Maybe the process is stronger than we think.

 

Scott

[flubrush]

It will be interesting to see how printed plastic wheels last the test of time. I was quite surprised to hear that someone has actually produced a gun, that fires an actual bullet, using the Rapid Prototyping process. Maybe the process is stronger than we think.

 

Scott,

 

I read somewhere recently that someone in,  I think, Australia had printed a gun but it failed when fired.  I suspect that there are variations in the strengths of the plastic you can use which would make a successful gun a bit of a lottery.  Getting a bit off topic now.

 

Jim.

 

PS - Another off topic - anyone got success in using smilies on this version of the software.  Apart from having to choose from a huge list which can take a long time,  the smilie eventually displayed is not the one that was chosen.

[Phil Copleston]

PS - Another off topic - anyone got success in using smilies on this version of the software.  Apart from having to choose from a huge list which can take a long time,  the smilie eventually displayed is not the one that was chosen.

 

Jim,

 

Seems fine to me. I've not had a problem in selecting emoticons (smilies), except they ain't in any particular order so can take longer to find...       

[Guest]

I've been in touch with Mitchell (SpoorObjecten of this parish and a Shapeways employee) about the strength of the plastic used in 3D Printing with particular reference to this discussion. His reply herewith and quoted with his permission:

 

"Yes, 3d printing wheels is most definitely possible and the strength of the plastic depends on the material you would like to have this printed in.

For S I would recommend to have a shot with our White Strong & Flexible Polished material.

This isn't really expensive and the polishing after printing will give a nice smooth feeling.

In addition, this material is pretty strong and is suitable for wheels.

If you would like to have high quality material (like using the wheels as master for molding) I would recommend to go for Frosted Ultra Detail.

The material is less strong than WSF but I'm not sure if it's strong enough for using it as wheels, of course it all depends on the thickness, the thicker the model the stronger it will be."

 

I'm going ahead. Boxpok wheels are inherently stronger than the normal spoked variety, largely on account of the thickness of the "spokes". Having said that, I've long had it in mind to build an S-Scale model of an SECR P class 0-6-0T. I have a good drawing and can get hold of suitable tyres for the wheels. The centres I would like to print.

 

The availability of wheels has long been a bugbear of working in S. I truly believe we have an answer here.

[flubrush]

I'm going ahead. Boxpok wheels are inherently stronger than the normal spoked variety, largely on account of the thickness of the "spokes". Having said that, I've long had it in mind to build an S-Scale model of an SECR P class 0-6-0T. I have a good drawing and can get hold of suitable tyres for the wheels. The centres I would like to print.

 

The availability of wheels has long been a bugbear of working in S. I truly believe we have an answer here.

 

David,

 

You should be fairly safe with the mass of the Boxpok wheel - and it might not be too bad with the Class P since it has very small drivers with short spokes which will probably be a lot sturdier than a larger diameter wheel.  UK S scale modellers seem to prefer the split frame method of pickup and it might be worth looking at the possibility of conductive centres (even metal?) to allow your wheels to be used easily for that purpose.

 

On the availability of wheels in S,  the situation in the UK actually wasn't too bad some years ago when the Mike Sharman range of 4mm scale wheels was available.  He had such an extensive range that you were pretty sure of finding a 4mm scale wheel which was the correct diameter in S scale in the small to medium sizes,  with the correct number of spokes and,  possibly,  the correct crank throw.  I built a Midland 1F tank and the wheels were one of Sharman's 4mm scale ones and they are pretty well spot on in S.  Unfortunately,  the Sharman range went off the market some years ago when the person who took the range over from Mike Sharman couldn't maintain production.

 

I look forward to seeing your results.  I won't be starting my own wheel making for a week or two - I'm in the middle of hacking CNC holes in some JLTRT 7mm scale resin coach sides for a friend and that's taking a fair bit of time and effort at the moment. :-)

 

Jim.

[ScottW]

I'm going ahead. Boxpok wheels are inherently stronger than the normal spoked variety, largely on account of the thickness of the "spokes". Having said that, I've long had it in mind to build an S-Scale model of an SECR P class 0-6-0T. I have a good drawing and can get hold of suitable tyres for the wheels. The centres I would like to print.

 

 

David,

 

Attached is a photograph of an S-Scale class P 0-6-0T. This model was built in 1958/59 by Bill Hall and is now part of my collection. Built for stud contact current collection and wheels courser than todays finescale standards. It's my intention to build a new chassis for the loco, and to give it a fresh coat of paint. I'll be needing some wheels so would be very interested to hear if you go ahead with the project.

 

Scott

[Phil Copleston]

Attached is a photograph of an S-Scale class P 0-6-0T. This model was built in 1958/59 by Bill Hall and is now part of my collection. Built for stud contact current collection and wheels courser than todays finescale standards. It's my intention to build a new chassis for the loco, and to give it a fresh coat of paint. I'll be needing some wheels so would be very interested to hear if you go ahead with the project.

 

Scott,

 

What a lovely, characterful and historic S scale model! But may I question whether you need to rebuild this model so much to bring it up to date? Body-wise, the paintwork looks pretty good considering its age and perhaps only needs careful touching up - as per this Photoshopped version of your image I prepared:

 

 

Chassis-wise, I suspect the stud-contact collection means far more intervention is needed. As it is not split-framed, new frame spacers and axles will be required. But it would be nice to keep as much original material as possible, such as retaining the wheels but turning down their tyres and mounting on new axles. Just a thought.

 

How does it run otherwise? (under isolated power, of course)  

Edited June 6, 2013 by Phil Copleston

[ScottW]

Phil,

 

Your touch up has improved the paintwork but unfortunately in reality I think it will take a little more work. What you see in the picture is the locomotives best side, the other side is not quite up to the same standard. If you look closely you can just about make out from the photograph that the side tank is a slightly different shade of green from the rest of the body, I think this was done when the loco was re-numbered. What you also can't see from the photograph is the minor damage to the rear buffer beam which will need sorting out and over the years some of the smaller detailed parts have come away. The paint will have to be removed and some remedial work carried out with the soldering iron.

 

Regarding the chassis, I would prefer to build a whole new chassis with split frames, suspension and finescale wheels. The current wheels look to be Romfords with the centre drilled out to accept plain axles. Yes, it might be possible to re-profile them but I would prefer to try and obtain a new set, with the correct number of spokes. Unfortunately I can't comment on it's running quality as I've not tried to get it moving.

 

Scott

[Phil Copleston]

Your touch up has improved the paintwork but unfortunately in reality I think it will take a little more work. What you see in the picture is the locomotives best side, the other side is not quite up to the same standard. If you look closely you can just about make out from the photograph that the side tank is a slightly different shade of green from the rest of the body, I think this was done when the loco was re-numbered. What you also can't see from the photograph is the minor damage to the rear buffer beam which will need sorting out and over the years some of the smaller detailed parts have come away. The paint will have to be removed and some remedial work carried out with the soldering iron.

 

Regarding the chassis, I would prefer to build a whole new chassis with split frames, suspension and finescale wheels. The current wheels look to be Romfords with the centre drilled out to accept plain axles. Yes, it might be possible to re-profile them but I would prefer to try and obtain a new set, with the correct number of spokes. Unfortunately I can't comment on it's running quality as I've not tried to get it moving.

 

Scott,

 

Ahhh I see. I hadn't appreciated all that. Thanks for explaining the true state of the model further. I can see what you mean now. Sounds like quite a lot of work to bring it up to modern standards. But I wish you all the best in bringing it to successful fruition. I shall follow progress with much interest!

 

The 0-6-0T is a beautiful (albeit slightly battered) model which captures the character of the P class well. From this distance, I'd say the original builder was a skilled craftsman. I'd be interested the know more of the model's provenance. And I'm curious to know who is/was Bill Hall. Maybe I missed something, but was he an early pioneer of S scale? How did the model come your way? 

[ScottW]

The 0-6-0T is a beautiful (albeit slightly battered) model which captures the character of the P class well. From this distance, I'd say the original builder was a skilled craftsman. I'd be interested the know more of the model's provenance. And I'm curious to know who is/was Bill Hall. Maybe I missed something, but was he an early pioneer of S scale? How did the model come your way? 

 

Phil,

 

Both myself and Jim Guthrie trawled through past editions of the Gazette to find some history on the models, and their builder Bill Hall. All the information was written up in last February's edition of the Gazette.

 

Scott

[Phil Copleston]

Both myself and Jim Guthrie trawled through past editions of the Gazette to find some history on the models, and their builder Bill Hall. All the information was written up in last February's edition of the Gazette.

 

 

 

 

Oooop, silly me! Mr Observant, I'm obviously not. Sorry for missing that. Will dig out my Gazette and read all about it. Thanks Scott.

[flubrush]

I'd be interested the know more of the model's provenance. And I'm curious to know who is/was Bill Hall. Maybe I missed something, but was he an early pioneer of S scale? How did the model come your way? 

 

Ahem.   February 2013 Gazette - page 12.

 

 

Jim.

[Phil Copleston]

Ahem.   February 2013 Gazette - page 12.

 

 

Jim.

 

Got it! Thanks for the precise reference Jim. A most interesting read. (I had read it before, but forgot.)

 

One can't help feel, having read in the aforementioned issue of the Gazette about the circuitous route by which this collection of S scale models fortuitously ended us with one of our SSMRS members ("ScottW"), that these historic models could easily have ended up elsewhere, unloved and unappreciated.

 

One hears of heart wrenching stories of disinterested relatives taking the lot down to the local junk shop! (or worse) But thankfully, this particular collection of seven locos and rolling stock will remain within the "S scale circle", as it were, and hopefully we will get to see them now and again at meetings or shows. So, thank you Scott!

Edited June 7, 2013 by Phil Copleston