Jol Wilkinson Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I think that the 3D process does not yet lend itself to competitively priced series production. With an item such as wheels I would recommend producing a 3D pattern, carry out any final surface finishing and use it as a pattern for investment casting. This process (lost wax casting) is relatively cheap, consistent and accurate, given good master patterns. Finding a caster for brass or nickel silver in Birmingham's Jewellery Quarter is apparently not too difficult. Some "kit" designers using the photo etch process produce a small production run to cover their costs, etc. and make the item available to other interested model makers. Why not do the same here? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 While all this is extremely interesting, like Jol I can't help wondering about the costs of it all. There seems to be no scope for economies of scale on series production which lost wax brass casting might provide; surely each 3D printed unit will cost the same regardless of how many one wants? Even if doing this as an individual, this might be worth considering if you required a reasonable quantity. As others have said, lost wax casting for locomotive wheels has been done before and is a proven technique for which a 3D printed master would be significant short cut, providing that it was sufficiently accurate. Adam Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I think that the 3D process does not yet lend itself to competitively priced series production. With an item such as wheels I would recommend producing a 3D pattern, carry out any final surface finishing and use it as a pattern for investment casting. This process (lost wax casting) is relatively cheap, consistent and accurate, given good master patterns. Finding a caster for brass or nickel silver in Birmingham's Jewellery Quarter is apparently not too difficult. Some "kit" designers using the photo etch process produce a small production run to cover their costs, etc. and make the item available to other interested model makers. Why not do the same here? While all this is extremely interesting, like Jol I can't help wondering about the costs of it all. There seems to be no scope for economies of scale on series production which lost wax brass casting might provide; surely each 3D printed unit will cost the same regardless of how many one wants? Even if doing this as an individual, this might be worth considering if you required a reasonable quantity. As others have said, lost wax casting for locomotive wheels has been done before and is a proven technique for which a 3D printed master would be significant short cut, providing that it was sufficiently accurate. Adam In principle, I agree with both of you. However, I refer again to the Shapeways restriction that 3D prints in wax are not available to third parties. I upload the model file, only I can order a wax print from it. This is not the object of this exercise. If Shapeways change their policy (and I cannot for the life of me think why they even have it), I would certainly consider this a way to go. Cost. Is this an issue when there's nothing else available? Having said that, I am in the fortunate position where cost is not an issue whatever. But even with the process you gentlemen (and others) suggest, would it be prohibitive? We have a jeweller here in this corner of Denmark. Might be worth seeing if he does investment casting and asking for a quote. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Copleston Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 In principle, I agree with both of you. However, I refer again to the Shapeways restriction that 3D prints in wax are not available to third parties. I upload the model file, only I can order a wax print from it. This is not the object of this exercise. If Shapeways change their policy (and I cannot for the life of me think why they even have it), I would certainly consider this a way to go. Cost. Is this an issue when there's nothing else available? Having said that, I am in the fortunate position where cost is not an issue whatever. But even with the process you gentlemen (and others) suggest, would it be prohibitive? We have a jeweller here in this corner of Denmark. Might be worth seeing if he does investment casting and asking for a quote. David, I'm baffled as to why you are so keen that the labours of your CAD design work should be made available to others via 3D printing (assuming the design of the particular loco wheel in question suits their prototype), yet you are not prepared to have castings made from 3D lost-wax masters and distribute them to others. So I am not sure what the "object of your excersise" is, in terms of a usable product for all in S scale. Perhaps you'd like to clarify. Also, I agree with Adam - there is no scope for economies of scale using the Shapeways 3D printing process. If it is purely for your own use, then why not just scratchbuild a set of wheels and be done with it? You could have made them by now! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 David, I'm baffled as to why you are so keen that the labours of your CAD design work should be made available to others via 3D printing (assuming the design of the particular loco wheel in question suits their prototype), yet you are not prepared to have castings made from 3D lost-wax masters and distribute them to others. So I am not sure what the "object of your excersise" is, in terms of a usable product for all in S scale. Perhaps you'd like to clarify. Also, I agree with Adam - there is no scope for economies of scale using the Shapeways 3D printing process. If it is purely for your own use, then why not just scratchbuild a set of wheels and be done with it? You could have made them by now! Made them! With what? As I've said, I don't have a lathe, nor even a workshop to speak of. As I've said more than once on this thread, I'm using the tools available to me - a computer with a 3D design package and the services on the internet that I know are available. And if as a result, the finished product is useful to someone else then they too can make use of it - something that wouldn't happen if I'd simply scratchbuilt them. Perhaps you would explain to me why I should be expected act as distributor when the machinery is already in place via Shapeways - assuming the final product comes up to scratch, and as I've also said more than once, we are very much in the early stages of this technology. To dismiss it because it does not at the moment bring the results we all would like to see is, to put it kindly, a little unwise. As for the "object of the exercise", it is (again!) simply to make these wheels available to others - not to make a cottage industry out of it, not to start a multinational corporation out of it, not to make money out of it, not anything more than to provide availability of something that I have produced for my own use. I believe that's what members of your society do when they etch or cast something for themselves, yes? Same means, different manufacturing methods. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Or here's a thought. I could e-mail a viable STL file to anyone who wants it and they can then upload it onto Shapeways, get a wax print, etc., etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Bronze. I hadn't looked at the bronze option before - in this case, 90% copper/10% tin. http://www.shapeways.com/materials/bronze?li=nav Harder wearing than brass, so I'm told: http://evanstechnology.com/bronze-deep-drawn-stampings/ I have another file ready for printing. If anyone has any comments about why I shouldn't try it in bronze, please speak now or forever hold your peace. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flubrush Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 http://evanstechnology.com/bronze-deep-drawn-stampings/ I have another file ready for printing. If anyone has any comments about why I shouldn't try it in bronze, please speak now or forever hold your peace. We're not stopping you. Jim. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkis Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 ...and so, how did it go with the bronze, David? It's been almost a year since you posted here, what have you learned and what are you up to? Clark Cone A Yankee in sheep's clothing... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 ...and so, how did it go with the bronze, David? It's been almost a year since you posted here, what have you learned and what are you up to? Clark Cone A Yankee in sheep's clothing... On hold, I'm afraid, Clark. Life has the habit of getting in the way sometimes. In my case, a mother in a care home after a stroke, a father causing hell by trying to get her out (even though she is paralysed down one side), and a brother diagnosed with Small Cell Cancer (tumours now thankfully in remission). I also had a computer failure at the turn of the year which meant I couldn't continue on the project, anyway. New machine on its way, which is good because this laptop I'm using to stay in touch with the world just isn't up to the job, graphics-wise. On the plus side but still a drain on time is a burgeoning writing career - I'm now working with a highly talented illustrator and we're really starting to make money - a job where I am constantly in demand here in Denmark to teach English like what it's s'posed to be talked proper, plus a few other developments and I'm sure you can see that life has not been on my side. But be assured, the naysayers and detractors have thrown me off my path not one step. Come the end of May, I should have both time and resources to allow me to continue. As you may imagine, I've had time to mull over the issues and think I can see a way forward. Whether people like it or not, this new technology will help further the scale and, indeed, the hobby in general. Watch this space. In the meantime, here's some gentle music. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Long overdue update. No, this project is not dead. Things happen. In my case, my brother Mike, whose tumours were in such hopeful remission, suffered a relapse and died in May. There was nothing anyone could do. Small cell cancer is a particularly nasty form of the disease. When it came back, it didn't just attack him, it ravaged him. He was given six weeks to live, he managed three days. This threw my mum - in a care home following a major stroke, if you recall - into a flat spin of depression from which she has never recovered. She's slipping away, it's as simple as that. I will be back as soon as may be. I've posted a couple of other items on this sub-forum, which I hope have proved of interest, but that will be it from me until all this is over. Keep the S scale faith. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldwin30762 Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 Hi Guys I have just stared to follow this post and I was wondering where I could get imperial sized wheels for Sn2 from say 1/8" to up 1/2" I should say that I don't own a lathe or a computer good enough to install Cad on at present. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brack Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 Convert the dimensions to mm, then work out the equivalent size in 4mm/ft and look at the markits or Alan Gibson catalogues. Remember that due to tyre wear loco wheels can be an inch or two smaller than their nominal diameter, so you can often get away with a close match. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Regularity Posted December 9, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 9, 2017 (edited) Also look at the North West Short Line catalogue: http://www.nwsl.com/nwsl-online-catalog.html Edited December 9, 2017 by Regularity Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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