RMweb Gold Alister_G Posted March 3, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 3, 2013 Hi, I have a Bachmann 31-178DC 'Jubilee' 45659 'Drake', which is very nice and smooth (running DCC) with really good low speed control, but it seems very light, and has very poor traction. On a level baseboard, it succumbs to wheelslip when pulling a rake of 6 Airfix / Mainline LMS coaches through a radius 3 and 4 reverse curve with transition curves, a part of the track where none of my other locos - even a Jinty - have any trouble at all. I haven't taken it to bits yet, but wondered how much room is available to add extra weight. Has anyone else had trouble with this model, or fitted weights to it? Thanks very much, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 If your Jinty is the Bachmann model, that has far more weight on the driven wheels than the Jubilee does, and no unpowered wheels: and it is weight on the driven wheels less the drag from any unpowered wheels, that determines available traction. Take the bogie and tender off the Jube and see how it does with the same train ( a little bent wire link to the drawbar as a temporary coupler). If it has no trouble then the primary cause is drag from bogie and tender. Could be less than free running axles, possibly compounded on the bogie with an over strong spring; could be the tender lifting the rear of the loco, or the tender jamming against the loco on curves because it is coupled on too closely. Weight is usually easy to add on Bachmann. No idea of this model's internal layout, you may have to move some components about, or even take out screw attached ballast weight and replace in something denser like lead for the best result. The BR Std 5MT from Bach can be got up to 400g without difficulty, must be very similar size to a Jube; then it pulls like it should. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Hello Alastair I have just been to have a look at 'Drake' - it hasn't done very much since I took the digital chip out. I use my 'Jubilees' on 'semi-fast' trains with five bogies (coaches) and they cope (just about) with the nominally 1 in 60 gradients. The lack of weight is a feature I am afraid of going Digital. Drake weighs 280 gm. My old Mainline Amethyst with a replacement Bachmann chassis weighs 310 gm. There is one reason for your poor traction - lack of weight. There was a similar thread a couple of weeks back about the Bachmann Collett goods. The new Digital Collett weighs 135 gm compared to the 200 gm of the non digital version. It is very easy to look inside 'Drake - two tiny screws, one under the bogie and one under the cab holding the tender coupling in place. There is a 'half' metal weight screwed into the boiler leavng a space above for the 'chip'. Comparing with the Collett I would say that for us DC modellers there is room to add another 40 gm of lead. As already mentioned above you can always try removing the front bogie spring - I have done that with some classes of engine but not as yet with the Jubilees. Good luck Ray http://longsheds.blogspot.co.uk/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Alister_G Posted March 4, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2013 Thanks both for your replies. I'd never considered removing the tender and bogie and then trying it - strange but true... Thanks Ray, I'll attack it with a screwdriver tonight and see where I can get some more lead. Comparing the weight of the loco by feel, with other comparably sized models - Hornby Stanier 8F, Bachmann Crab, it does feel much lighter, in particular, the tender feels horribly plasticky and light, although that's probably a good thing at the moment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Alastair I have been working on your 'problem' this morning but the time has beaten me, the sun is back out, amd I need to dig some of the garden. Two points, I have been playing with some of my engines and 'Alberta' has more tractive effort than 'Drake'. On my layout neither are digital and both are otherwise unmodified. They both weigh the same. However the design of the two front bogie springs are different. The spring on 'Drake' is noticeably stiffer than the one in Alberta. My task this evening will be to take the springs out. This is not unusual for Bachmann models and I was first alerted to differences in spring stiffness with D67 and D163 - one of which could hardly move itself up one of my inclines! Second point is that the half metal weight in Drake does not appear to extend the full distance to the smoke box door. I was able to fill the space with lead shot which was held in place by the existing metal weight and which I could then remove by tipping upside down. It seems to me that providing your are very careful (not attacking) with your screw driver, there is the posibility of adding more weight beyond the chip in a DCC model. Sounds promising Regards Ray http://longsheds.blogspot.co.uk/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Alister_G Posted March 4, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2013 Hi Ray, It's very kind of you to spend any time on my question. I have taken the body off and had a look, and as you say there is room for weight in various places. I haven't got any lead at the moment, but I can get some later in the week. I think there is room for a flat sheet at the rear of the firebox, and also some at the front of the smokebox, which should all help. Running without the tender and bogie makes a big difference, and I noticed the drawbar for the tender was slightly bent such that the tender seems to be taking the weight off the rear driving wheels just a tiny amount, so I've bent it slightly to compensate. The spring on the bogie was very stiff as well, as you suggested, so I've taken that off. Thank you again for your suggestions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Higgi Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Please do not put any weight in the smokebox! The problem with the Jubilee (like a lot of Bachmann locos) is that it is smokebox heavy. In fact just to balance it requires 80g in the cab! Now I couldn't get that much on board. I got a piece of 2mm thick lead in the top of the firebox, a piece under the cab roof, a new cab floor from lead and a strip either side (under the cab windows). Originally mine was 283g---------- with those mods it was up to 320g. A Masterpiece crew added another 12g. It now pulls 11 coaches with ease and is another loco in comparison than the one that came out of the box. I did not have a problem with the bogie on this one but I have had on others. I have not any curves tighter than 36" so I close coupled loco and tender. With cab doors the weights (painted matt black) do not show Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Alister_G Posted March 4, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2013 Please do not put any weight in the smokebox! Noted, Thanks Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Alan / Alastair I like the sound of lead in the top of the firebox. I have compared the bogie springs from Alberta and Drake, I would say the spring from Drake is slightly longer and made from heavier gauge wire. You have to wonder why. Regards Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Higgi Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Yes SS it does fit and on the Hornby 8f too but not in the Black 5. I do a trial and error with gobs of blu-tac. I have also been following your posts. That has saved me so much experimentation. Thank you. Incidently as well as the 2mm lead. I use 1mm from Eileen's Emporium and .5mm self adhesive tape from the golf shop, Every gram helps but balance is so important. I overdid the smokebox heavy thing with a few locos until I "got it" You can actualy lose tractive effort by putting weight in the wrong place! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Mine won't pull the skin off a rice pudding. Took the chip out and put a bit of weight in but it made little difference. Smooth quiet runner though. I doublehead it with either another Jub or a Hornby Railroad Black 5. No problem with 12 on. Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob O Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 I had been told the front heavy problem on the Bachmann Hall and B1 is what destroyed my models due to uneven wear but I was unconvinced until Alan's post. I am waiting for 34c and Silver sideline's comments on balance to confirm this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 ......I am waiting for 34c and Silver sideline's comments on balance to confirm this. Bob it could be a little while before I report fully on Drake. I am tempted to put some lead into the toip of the firebox and since I have removed the Chip I will also put a similar amount in that space. I cannot comment on B1s, I have a number of the split chassis types and was so frustrated with 'tight' spots on newly purchased models that even spoke to Bachmann. They advised cleaning out all existing lubricant and starting again! As regards the elderly Halls due to their small boilers they seem very light weight - with the bogie springs removed they are just about useful on my layout. but for how long! Regards Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 Balance: it is as folks above already stated, get it as close to the middle of the coupled wheelbase as possible for optimum results. If there are trucks or bogies with springs at the lead end only, the center of balance may be slightly biased in that direction to compensate for the small amount of weight the springs takes off the coupled wheels. And it should be a small amount of weight on a spring, 10g pressure from the spring when compressed to the normal riding position is ample on a bogie for track holding, around 7g for a pony truck. Modern electronic scales make it easy to assess what force the spring exerts in the in service compressed position. Bachmann have in the past really overdone the spring pressure on carrying wheels, the first standard 5MT I purchased had what I estimated at over 100g spring load on the bogie and was feeble in the extreme as a result. It is not just the weight taken off the coupled wheels, but also the drag induced by that spring loading on plain inside bearings. I thought they had got past this tendency, my more recent purchases with significant carrying wheels (Fairburn 4MTT, Pepp A2, rechassied B1 and V2) were pretty much ideally arranged in respect of spring force straight from the box. Sounds as if that is not consistently the case across the range. With some imagination, a lot of weight can be got into the cab ends of 4-6-0 and 4-4-0 types, this is easier to do than going to the trouble of weight transfer from a tender. Rearranging the loco interior is often a major aid. As a good example, on the Std 5MT there is a void over the coupled wheelbase taken up with low density decoder socket and insulated pocket for the decoder. Just a poor design: the smokebox space above the bogie is ideal for low density components, the space over the coupled wheelbase wants to be packed solid with ballast. (Not just Bachmann with this mispositioned decoder socket habit, Hornby do it too. The M7 is a key example: move the socket to the bunker, pack the good sized void thus created in the smokebox end with ballast: Hercules.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Alastair, Just a brief update to let you know that I have successfully ballasted my Jubilees up to 310gm - I have put the details in a new Post on my Blog. Regards Rat Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Had a similar problem with my Bachmann GWR mogul. It weighed in at the same as my Mainline version with plated wheels, but struggled with 5 coaches on the level. The Mainline would pull 10 no problem. Was told by a man at Bachmann that it was to do with what the wheels were blackened with. After much running it did improve, but never as good as the Mainline one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Had a similar problem with my Bachmann GWR mogul. It weighed in at the same as my Mainline version with plated wheels, but struggled with 5 coaches on the level. The Mainline would pull 10 no problem. Was told by a man at Bachmann that it was to do with what the wheels were blackened with. After much running it did improve, but never as good as the Mainline one. Jules - seem to think that the Mainline 43xx and the Manor both had rubber tyres on the rear driving wheels- quite different animals to the Bachmann equivalents. Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Alister_G Posted March 9, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 9, 2013 Alastair, Just a brief update to let you know that I have successfully ballasted my Jubilees up to 310gm - I have put the details in a new Post on my Blog. Regards Rat Hi Ray, Thank you for your update. It's most remiss of me but I had a go at my "Drake" late last week, but forgot to post here. I have done very similar to you, adding lead to the firebox area, both in the top and at the back, and I've also added a piece to the inside roof of the cab. I haven't measured the weight of the loco, but performance wise it's a different engine. Thank you very much for your help and advice, and for taking the time to look at this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 ... Was told by a man at Bachmann that it was to do with what the wheels were blackened with. After much running it did improve, ... Glad to read that as confirmation, because that is the conclusion I had reached. The process seems to leave a very variable finish, in the most severe cases the loco comes out of the box with about a third the traction it will eventually achieve, and needs several hours running for the tyres to clean up / polish up to achieve that traction. Others are practically at their full tractive potential from the off. Very variable in effect. Once all polished up by running as required, weight for weight on the coupled wheels, Bachmann is about 10% down on traction compared to a 'Romford' nickel silver tyre. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Jules - seem to think that the Mainline 43xx and the Manor both had rubber tyres on the rear driving wheels- quite different animals to the Bachmann equivalents. Ray Not on mine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Not on mine. Hello Jules, Very interesting, between 1982 and 1985 I bought bought new four Mainline Manors and both black and green BR 43 xx. All had Mainline pancake motors and all had rubber tyres on the rear driving wheels. After Mainline / Pallitoy folded around 1986 I replaced one of the Mainline mechanisms with a Bachman mechanism with flywheel drive motor and no tyres. The replacement mechanism did not come with brake rodding and since the Mainline and Bachmann bottom plates were interchamgeable I fitted the older Mainline labelled plate and brake rodding to the newer Bachmann mechanism. It would be interesting to know what motor your 43xx had. Regards Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Hello Jules, Very interesting, between 1982 and 1985 I bought bought new four Mainline Manors and both black and green BR 43 xx. All had Mainline pancake motors and all had rubber tyres on the rear driving wheels. After Mainline / Pallitoy folded around 1986 I replaced one of the Mainline mechanisms with a Bachman mechanism with flywheel drive motor and no tyres. The replacement mechanism did not come with brake rodding and since the Mainline and Bachmann bottom plates were interchamgeable I fitted the older Mainline labelled plate and brake rodding to the newer Bachmann mechanism. It would be interesting to know what motor your 43xx had. Regards Ray Mine had a split chassis and can motor. Whather this was original or a later(Bachmann ?) replacement I cannot say as I purchased second hand. But the chassis was the same as the Bachmann from memory. I also had a short lived cab window version with plated wheels and I don't remember this having haulage issues either. All are now long gone as I ditched all my split chassis loco's when I went DCC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Mine had a split chassis and can motor. ... Hello Jules, Sounds suspiciously like Bachmann not Mainline. I think the side window cab version was definitely Bachmann. Regards Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Hello Jules, Sounds suspiciously like Bachmann not Mainline. I think the side window cab version was definitely Bachmann. Regards Ray It came in a Mainline box which was labelled for this loco number. I purchased it S/H in about 1999 at a swapmeet. The side window was definitely Bachmann. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Higgi Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Weight is usually easy to add on Bachmann. No idea of this model's internal layout, you may have to move some components about, or even take out screw attached ballast weight and replace in something denser like lead for the best result. The BR Std 5MT from Bach can be got up to 400g without difficulty, must be very similar size to a Jube; then it pulls like it should. Just about to "tweak" my 2 Stanier Pacifics so I just reread this thread. I was suprised at the 400g! I got one of my 73xxxs up to 365 and it was not happy; so I reduced it . You have weighed up tons {no pun intended) more locos than I have so you know how far to go with them. Just how much can you get in a Brit/9f/B1 before it is too much? Regards Al Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.