Bachmann announce Mk2f's

[ThaneofFife]

the Hornby 2E's are now down to £12-14 at Hattons !

[Redford73]

And yes Bob Reid I WAS aware they are cheaper without DCC/sound and probably should have emphasised that in my posts but the thread was referring to the 'bells and whistles', lights etc features and the fact that the MK2fs are closer to Continental offerings with some implying that everyone has been asking for such standards hence my points.

 

I have to say that even £47 is pretty steep for a coach when you consider a decent rake is going to set you back £377 odd.

 

I could add that the MK2fs are not isolated examples of arguably high priced rolling stock but would be going off topic.

 

It's all down to the individual.  I have a reasonable disposable income and have spent a good deal of money over the 15 years I have been in the hobby but it's all relative to other factors (as per Trailrage's contribution above).  I for one have other interests and a family and buying highly detailed 100% accurate rollingstock isn't worth it for me. I suspect the majority of modellers are not on nigh incomes and may be priced out of the hobby if there is to be a trend of higher standards/higher priced models.  And have we considered encouraging the younger modellers who are the future of the hobby?  Will they have the pocket money to purchase stock at these prices?      

[Bob Reid]

Form an orderly queue....

[adb968008]

And have we considered encouraging the younger modellers who are the future of the hobby? Will they have the pocket money to purchase stock at these prices?

 

As a kid, i did 5 paper rounds, mornings, evening and sunday. I also did 2 thursday free papers (300+ each), every week i imagine i would deliver in the region of 1000 newspapers by foot or by bicycle, from around 12 years old... it would allow me to buy at least 2-3 Lima locos per week, and i amassed a considerable collection.

 

Kids today can still buy Lima locos on ebay circa £25, coaches at £10, and they earn much more today, and have a much wider selection of detailed models to choose from than i did on a paperround 30 years ago.

 

I didnt start by buying top of the range stuff and neither should they, but i did spend a lot of time looking at it. Its only as an adult I can afford it, and appreciate it much more.

Edited October 30, 2018 by adb968008

[Bob Reid]

And yes Bob Reid I WAS aware they are cheaper without DCC/sound and probably should have emphasised that in my posts but the thread was referring to the 'bells and whistles', lights etc features and the fact that the MK2fs are closer to Continental offerings with some implying that everyone has been asking for such standards hence my points.

 

I have to say that even £47 is pretty steep for a coach when you consider a decent rake is going to set you back £377 odd.

 

I could add that the MK2fs are not isolated examples of arguably high priced rolling stock but would be going off topic.

 

It's all down to the individual.  I have a reasonable disposable income and have spent a good deal of money over the 15 years I have been in the hobby but it's all relative to other factors (as per Trailrage's contribution above).  I for one have other interests and a family and buying highly detailed 100% accurate rollingstock isn't worth it for me. I suspect the majority of modellers are not on nigh incomes and may be priced out of the hobby if there is to be a trend of higher standards/higher priced models.  And have we considered encouraging the younger modellers who are the future of the hobby?  Will they have the pocket money to purchase stock at these prices?      

 

 

You wrote;

 

"I'm sorry but the mark up of £60-£80 for the MK2F is just too much (for me at least) when you consider it's mostly for the 'bells and whistles' which we are paying more for.  I wonder what Bachmann would have asked for the same coach without DCC, the lights, the lamps and buffer detailing?"

 

 

Okay I'm perhaps being thick here but where did you say the starting price is £46 rather than the £60-80 you wrote? and your last sentence wondering how much they would have charged without the bells & whistles certainly indicates that you certainly were not aware of the cheaper versions? 

[wombatofludham]

the Hornby 2E's are now down to £12-14 at Hattons !

 

Still wouldn't touch them if they were giving them away.

 

At least for an "air conditioned" coach you actually have some competitive choice:  The old Airfix/Dapol/Hornby 2d (of which incidentally I'm going to keep a rake of as I need them for a cross-country rake), the flawed Hornby 2e, or the choice of the 2f in either non-DCC or DCC.  For some rolling stock and locos there isn't that competitive choice and you either pay what is being asked or do something else.

 

As for attracting youngsters, I've just bought one of my younger relations a computer game for Christmas.  £42.  With games consoles costing £100s, and seemingly being replaced every year, and fashion-accessory smartphones costing £100s I doubt many youngsters will be as shocked at prices as some seem to think.  

 

And for those who seem to think we as a modelling community haven't been asking for constantly higher standards and making comparisons with Continental models, sorry, but you are wrong.  It has been a constant theme for years, right back to the 80s, first there were letters to magazines, and subsequently regular postings on forums about the matter and they are still being made, every time there is a leap of technology in Europe or the USA there are people wanting the same here.  For swapmeet prices.

 

I doubt Bachmann, who are under pressure to turn in a profit, will have launched this model range without having the confidence that despite low income growth in the UK, they will sell in enough numbers to satisfy their owners.  Andy Y reported that at the recent Bachmann trade update they said that they were "encouraged" by pre orders for the Grey Pullman train set at nearly £900.  I'd like to bet they won't be being bought by Vlad and Tatyana Oligarchski for little Vlad, or for that matter Joe and Joanna Lottowinner for their little junior, as indulgent Christmas presents yet someone seems to be pre-ordering them. Clearly Bachmann have found a market that seems prepared to pay a premium for items that have extras.

 

Ultimately you have a choice to buy these models, buy competing models, buy second hand or take up some other hobby as you see fit, to suit your particular financial situation, modelling preferences and so on.  However, going into denial that the modelling community isn't to blame for requesting these features which have pushed up the price doesn't change the fact that if we as a community hadn't been asking for these features then Bachmann would have produced a simpler model which they haven't, nor will it change the price.  And as for hoping they don't sell in some vain hope they will be price matched to Hornby's 2e coaches in a distress sale, that's just asking for trouble.  You may be happy to accept Hornby's "couldn't give a monkey's" attitude to post-steam rolling stock, with missing components, design flaws and the like but if by wishing these 2fs to become shelf queens, you won't see new D+E stock coming to market in a cheaper price bracket, you'll be seeing more steam era stock, for which there is still demand and a huge pool of unmodeled prototypes to choose from.

 

Do I wish these models were cheaper?  Of course. and I'm well aware I'm well aware of the financial pressures many face.  However, we are where we are, Bachmann have made a commercial decision to go for this marketing strategy and price point and no amount of complaining on here will change that. 

[159220]

Be careful what you wish for.

 

 

I could not agree more, what a bunch of knicker twisters posting on here about negatives - we have never had detail so good! I celebrate this! Last time I check over on the DRS Short Set in Norfolk the roof could not be described as smooth!

 

I am sat here patiently waiting for modern liveries, including DRS, Anglia and Cargo D/Rivera Trains BR B/G with CDL (what a welcomed innovation!!!). And guess what, this might blow the cushion off someones armchair.... I do not care how much they shall cost! 1. As I want them, 2. It is a hobby and 3. there real things that matter out there which need you to shout about, toy trains is not one of them! 

 

If the errors were as noticeable as Hornby's Mk2e, then sure, criticise. But otherwise, move on and enjoy your life hobby!  

[TRAILRAGE]

I wish I could enjoy my Life or Hobby but having found out today that there is a very real possibility of me loosing my job just before Christmas, With a family to support and a house to run that makes a bit difficult.

As I said before sometimes people should think before telling them to well I wont say what i was thinking but you get the point. 

 

I really do like the Bachmann Mk2f coaches but after today everything's on hold.

 

Stay happy all and lets keep it civil.

 

Cheers Trailrage

[TRAILRAGE]

Trailrage, It wasn't aimed at you so apologies if you read it that way.  Clearly they are expensive and apart from need, they may be beyond the reach of some folk depending on their circumstances however there's a common misconception amongst the "meetoo" moans about the high cost that cite only the bells and whistles version rather than the slightly more affordable non-DCC version.  

Bob Reid. My apologies also as it wasn't so much as directed at you but at the people who keep telling others to basically shut up and if you don't like it go forth and multiply.  I used to look forward with anticipation at the new releases but for a lot of people myself included it can get a little bit depressing knowing that as much as you want it you cant have it . Its just a sign of the times  I'm afraid.

 

Regards Trailrage

[Bob Reid]

Availability isn't going too change any time soon so perhaps when your circumstances change there'll be opportunity for some in your household.  Best of luck job hunting - I know only too well what it's like, my father once having it done to him on Christmas Eve.... 

[Redford73]

You wrote;

 

 

Okay I'm perhaps being thick here but where did you say the starting price is £46 rather than the £60-80 you wrote? and your last sentence wondering how much they would have charged without the bells & whistles certainly indicates that you certainly were not aware of the cheaper versions? 

 

YOU said the price was £46.71 Hattons website in your post - I was quoting you!  I was only aware there were cheaper versions not the exact price and my ref to £60-£80 was in line with the previous posts which were discussing the more detailed versions.  And I was wondering what a version of the MK2F akin to the Hornby MK2E would have been charged at.  As I say £47 (rounding up £46.71) is a bit steep for a coach. 

 

I'm not trying to dissuade you from forking out they cash if you want it's just my view and this is a FORUM the definition of which is to allows people to discuss ideas and views on a subject.

[adb968008]

I wish I could enjoy my Life or Hobby but having found out today that there is a very real possibility of me loosing my job just before Christmas, With a family to support and a house to run that makes a bit difficult.

As I said before sometimes people should think before telling them to well I wont say what i was thinking but you get the point.

 

I really do like the Bachmann Mk2f coaches but after today everything's on hold.

 

Stay happy all and lets keep it civil.

 

Cheers Trailrage

My sympathy, I know how it feels, twice in my life thats happened to me, one time was very extreme circumstances that followed, and in both cases, everything i had was for sale, it can be hell and feel like theres no hope.

 

Things do turn around, it never rains forever, so enjoy what you have when you have it, and later once its passed you will find it tastes sweeter when the corner does turn for the better and you will appreciate it all the more.

 

Family is always first, the hobby can wait, things will fall into place, even if it doesnt look like it.

Best of luck, but the only thing you need is persistence.

Edited October 30, 2018 by adb968008

[sanspareil]

I think that what we are seeing and is difficult for people is that the hobby is going pretty quickly from an almost every-man hobby to a richer mans one.

 

Before most if us could afford all the latest releases, now increasingly that is not the case - sadly choices have to be made either through pure cant afford or just lesser perceived value. There will always be people that can afford and/or will pay almost pay any price and that no level of detail is enough. For others its a balance on detail demands if costs become too high. Only the manufacturers will know through sales what channel they need aim at, or maybe as Hornby have been trying to a degree a two tier strategy. If Bachmann et al maintain their double digit yearly RRP percentage increases that almost seem to be the norm now I am not sure where the hobby will go for the masses, I guess the manufacturers will just have to hope there are enough richer folk around to keep it and them going. I guess its fortunate that the hobby generally is made up of a more mature demographic who maybe have a higher chance of fitting that bill?

 

For me I could afford the latest releases I guess but it would now mean cutting back very much in other areas so I am selective and my spending overall has reduced, I have to draw a line somewhere and its a disappointing decision to have to make. I have a growing personal perceived value issue especially when locos that I bought 5-6 years ago for maybe £70 are now retailing close to £140 for the very same model. As a comparative I am about to buy a new TV, my last was 32 inch 10 years ago and cost £700 (still going just moving to another room), this one is going to cost £500 for 49 inch which improved design and features. 

 

On the MK2's well what I want isnt currently released anyhow. If/when they are released the cost is much higher still then like some others sadly I will have to stick with what i have got (given I would want about 10 of them). Just thank goodness I amassed so much stock in general in the past...

 

If I were Hornby I would maybe consider how much it would cost to re-do the underframe on their MK2 to provide something that would actually sell and be a viable cheaper alternative to Bachmanns offering. 

Edited October 31, 2018 by sanspareil

[raetiamann]

Expensive? My local shop told me their initial delivery was sold out within 2/3 days.

[Roy Langridge]

I am a little confused and amused as to why this sudden discussion on price as if the Mk2F were the first to set the bar that high. The rrp of a Bachman Pullman (with lights, no DCC) is £69.95, the observation saloon (no lights that I recall and not DCC) is £64.95. Hornby's Devon Belle was £74.99 IIRC.

 

Yes, none of these are quite as mainstream as the Mk2f, but that is reflected in the price of a comparable rrp of £54.95 for a non-DCC Mk2f. That, to me, isn't out of the usual range.

 

We have been paying these prices (well whatever the discount price was) for some time.

 

Roy

Edited October 31, 2018 by Roy Langridge

[Andy Mac]

What a lot of people seem to be over looking is the residual value in these models....

 

Yes, a non DCC Mk2f is about £46/47 each, with a £20 odd mark up for DCC fitted coaches...

 

Yes, the coaches are more expensive, because they are far more detailed, which is what, we, in general terms, the market wanted/demanded from the manufacturer’s. If they are too expensive for some people, thats unfortunate, but Bachmann are not a charity, and have clearly identified that there is a demand for the higher detail models at a higher price point. there are older cheaper models freely available on the second hand market. If Bachmann have got their strategy wrong then they will change over time to maintain their profitability.

 

So, back to my original point, the residual value.... there are not many toys/hobbies, where after a few years of play use, providing you have looked after the coaches, you can sell them on the second hand market and get back a substantial percentage of the original cost.

As Mark (Wombatofludham) points out, he’s bought a computer game for a relation for £42 for a relative.... i’m Pretty sure in a few years time, the value of that computer game on the second hand market will be very low.

[James90012]

I am a little confused and amused as to why this sudden discussion on price as if the Mk2F were the first to set the bar that high. The rrp of a Bachman Pullman (with lights, no DCC) is £69.95, the observation saloon (no lights that I recall and not DCC) is £64.95. Hornby's Devon Belle was £74.99 IIRC.

 

Yes, none of these are quite as mainstream as the Mk2f, but that is reflected in the price of a comparable rrp of £54.95 for a non-DCC Mk2f. That, to me, isn't out of the usual range.

 

We have been paying these prices (well whatever the discount price was) for some time.

 

Roy

 

As for the DBSO, the RRP is £79.95. The latest DVT from Hornby has an RRP of £74.99. It's certainly not isolated to Bachmann.

[ThaneofFife]

what I find really sore is the fact that when announced we saw pre-order prices for the DCC versions of arouns £36 I think it was.    I cant recall if that was a retailer price they picked out of thin air or whether Bachmann had an RRP on which the doscunted price has been guessimated but in the 5 years its taken to get them to market seeing that price nearly double still smarts.

 

I know theres naff all can be done about it so dont disagree about moving on from discussions on price.   they do look great coaches in the photos . 

 

I need to buy one myself, test it, examine it etc then go from there.

[Roy Langridge]

As for the DBSO, the RRP is £79.95. The latest DVT from Hornby has an RRP of £74.99. It's certainly not isolated to Bachmann.

I didn't include the DBSO as I felt that I wouldn’t be comparing like for like as it is DCC only, but that comparison with the DVT is interesting.

Roy

Edited October 31, 2018 by Roy Langridge

[MJI]

As for attracting youngsters, I've just bought one of my younger relations a computer game for Christmas.  £42.  With games consoles costing £100s, and seemingly being replaced every year, and fashion-accessory smartphones costing £100s I doubt many youngsters will be as shocked at prices as some seem to think.  

 

 

 

Consoles are usually used woth a 5 to 7 year life span but phones are ridiculous.

 

Games sometimes that £40 will last a couple of days, sometimes a few months.

 

I have over 1000 hours on some games so getting my monies worth.

[adb968008]

So, back to my original point, the residual value.... there are not many toys/hobbies, where after a few years of play use, providing you have looked after the coaches, you can sell them on the second hand market and get back a substantial percentage of the original cost.

As Mark (Wombatofludham) points out, he’s bought a computer game for a relation for £42 for a relative.... i’m Pretty sure in a few years time, the value of that computer game on the second hand market will be very low.

I refer back to my post above,

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69220-Bachmann-announce-mk2fs/?p=3349274

Twice (truth be known 4 times), ive had rapid fire sales of my collection due to change in circumstances.

 

As ive explained to my other half, its not stocks, shares or cash, the profit is the pleasure of playing with it, but in emergency emotion goes in the bin and the collection goes online, nothing is so rare you cannot buy it back later.

 

Whilst this brings the other half on board with my hobby, dont push your luck...I suggested it could also a useful argument to the misses when she goes on about new shoes, handbag, furniture etc... none of them are worth anything later, so i suggest she buy trains too.. (i dont reccomend you trying this as the looks that kill that followed last forever !!!).

Edited October 31, 2018 by adb968008

[adb968008]

As for the DBSO, the RRP is £79.95. The latest DVT from Hornby has an RRP of £74.99. It's certainly not isolated to Bachmann.

No ones mentioned the unmentionable...

The £125 coach from Rapido.

 

Its not made of gold leaf, its just another typical 3 piece injection moulded coach (frame, body, interior) with the usual add ons, (underframe detailing, bogies, wheels albeit with more than average extra fitted clip /gluefits pieces) with associated printing and assembly in China.

 

More could be made at anytime.

Hasnt stopped it being a near sell out and no price complaints or any complaints.

 

The argument that it costs more as there are less made was accepted by those wiling to pay for it, is converse to these coaches, which cost less because more are made, yet is not being accepted by those unwilling to pay for it, despite being half the price and not a massive difference in detail.

 

Its all down to perceived value and marketing thereof.

Edited October 31, 2018 by adb968008

[raetiamann]

what I find really sore is the fact that when announced we saw pre-order prices for the DCC versions of arouns £36 I think it was.    I cant recall if that was a retailer price they picked out of thin air or whether Bachmann had an RRP on which the doscunted price has been guessimated but in the 5 years its taken to get them to market seeing that price nearly double still smarts.

 

I know theres naff all can be done about it so dont disagree about moving on from discussions on price.   they do look great coaches in the photos . 

 

I need to buy one myself, test it, examine it etc then go from there.

In that 5 years there has been inflation, increased costs in Asia and the hammering of sterling since the vote in 2016, so not at all surprising.

[Solo]

I've just bought my first MK2F, it is a beautiful model.  It is expensive relative to what went before but one of the joys of this hobby for me has always been the 'slow-burn' of building a collection, the anticipation of saving up to buy that next model.  In the past I've tended to buy a coach every couple of months and maybe a loco once a year.  So maybe with these new coaches that'll drop to perhaps one every three or four months - sure, it may take me a year and half to have a complete rake but what's the hurry? - I'm willing to accept that for a sublimely detailed model that really captures the character of the real thing and I applaud Bachmann for raising the standard here.  And at the end of the day £60 can easily be spent on a night out these days, all comes down to how you choose to spend your hard-earned cash.

['CHARD]

I've just bought my first MK2F, it is a beautiful model.  It is expensive relative to what went before but one of the joys of this hobby for me has always been the 'slow-burn' of building a collection, the anticipation of saving up to buy that next model.  In the past I've tended to buy a coach every couple of months and maybe a loco once a year.  So maybe with these new coaches that'll drop to perhaps one every three or four months - sure, it may take me a year and half to have a complete rake but what's the hurry? - I'm willing to accept that for a sublimely detailed model that really captures the character of the real thing and I applaud Bachmann for raising the standard here.  And at the end of the day £60 can easily be spent on a night out these days, all comes down to how you choose to spend your hard-earned cash.

 

The band I'm in played a gig in South London on Sunday evening.  The total cost of doing the show, including rehearsal, sunk merch costs, petrol, vehicle and equipment wear and tear, promotion, sundry outgoings (food and drink) - excluding the time of the four of us freely given, probably exceeded £160.  By simple maths, that's each of us spending 40+ quid apiece on a hobby, and giving up between 6 - 8 hours each to travel and perform. 

 

Factor that lot in at even £10/ hr and we're collectively 'investing' nearly £500 on one evening's entertainment.  Puts a £250 MU or 0-gauge loco into perspective.