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Modelling GWR slip coach operation  

53 members have voted

  1. 1. How would you model slip operation?

    • Motorize the coach
      33
    • Use a free-wheeling coach
      6
    • Use some kind of hybrid approach
      9
    • Don't waste your time - do what the railways ultimately did and not slip coaches at speed
      5


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22 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Up slips at Reading were dropped off with the train going through, if somewhat sedately, the main up platform road.

http://www.gwr.org.uk/slip-coach.html

 

Alas there is an error (perhaps MIss P's I think) in at least one of the captions on that page.   The Up Branch Home signal did have 4 running arms at the top of the structure  but they read  (from the left) to Up Relief Line, to No.7 Bay Line. to Up Main Line (NOT to Up Main Platform Line), and on the extreme right to to the Bay Lines (Platforms 1-3) and NOT to the Up Main Through Line.  The splitting signal for the connection to the Up. Main Platform Line was on the big gantry to the east of Main Line West Signal Box and was actually the Up Main to Up Main Platform Line Starting Signal.

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51 minutes ago, Donw said:

 

According to my Father in law the coach he was in glided into the platform unassisted. However he did not say whether the main train had gone through the platform road or the centre road. A lot depends on whether the interlocking would allow the signalman to change a turnout between the train passing though. I imagine the signalman might be able to throw the levers quick enough especially if an economical FPL (i.e only one lever) was used. However I think changing a turnout in front of a moving coach would not be acceptable. What if it jammed. Of course from my Father in Law's point of view the Express would have cleared either the platform or the centre road before the Slip was close enough to see. This was at Reading with a Slip off the up Torbay Express not sure if he mentioned the date but it would have been before 1942 when he joined the RAF to become a Lancaster ground crew member.

 

If you build one using DCC. You need to set the acceleration CV so there is no delay in reaching speed (or else the coach will appear to speed up)  and iff using say the Zimo immersive drive where it will coast and you press F2 to break it will be a close replica of dribving the real coach by using the break. Sounds fun.

 

Don

 

PS Staionmaster Mike may have a better idea if the interlocking would have allowed the turnout to be changed with an approaching coach.

 

 

PPS this had been flagged up to me by the system as something was updated  I didn't notice the date. I see Mike did give a clear answer about slipping distants.

It was not permitted,  even if it had been physically possible (which it wasn't - see next sentence),  to alter points between the passage of the main train and the slip portion.  The Rules and signalling Regulations required than no stop signal reading through facing points be replaced to danger until the whole of a passenger train, complete with tail lamp, had passed beyond those facing points - and of course the original tail lamp was on the slip portion ;)

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11 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Alas there is an error (perhaps MIss P's I think) in at least one of the captions on that page.   The Up Branch Home signal did have 4 running arms at the top of the structure  but they read  (from the left) to Up Relief Line, to No.7 Bay Line. to Up Main Line (NOT to Up Main Platform Line), and on the extreme right to to the Bay Lines (Platforms 1-3) and NOT to the Up Main Through Line.  The splitting signal for the connection to the Up. Main Platform Line was on the big gantry to the east of Main Line West Signal Box and was actually the Up Main to Up Main Platform Line Starting Signal.

 

The caption I have used for the Up Branch Home pic aligns with Adrian Vaughan's text, and I did not question the accuracy of his text, given Adrian's signalling pedigree. I will pass your comment on to Adrian for his comments.

 

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34 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

It was not permitted,  even if it had been physically possible (which it wasn't - see next sentence),  to alter points between the passage of the main train and the slip portion.  The Rules and signalling Regulations required than no stop signal reading through facing points be replaced to danger until the whole of a passenger train, complete with tail lamp, had passed beyond those facing points - and of course the original tail lamp was on the slip portion ;)

This rule was an important safety precaution with mechanical boxes.  The signalman might often be waiting for one movement to take place before another can start.  If the signal for an arrival is still off, the points it will traverse are locked, so if he is over-hasty and tries setting up a conflicting movement prematurely, the locking will do its job and stop him moving the points under the arriving train.

 

Where points are locked by track circuits however, there may be nothing to stop restoring the lever once the points are locked by the track circuit.

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10 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

The caption I have used for the Up Branch Home pic aligns with Adrian Vaughan's text, and I did not question the accuracy of his text, given Adrian's signalling pedigree. I will pass your comment on to Adrian for his comments.

 

In his GWR signalling book, which uses the same picture, the running arms are correctly described. ;)

 

9 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

This rule was an important safety precaution with mechanical boxes.  The signalman might often be waiting for one movement to take place before another can start.  If the signal for an arrival is still off, the points it will traverse are locked, so if he is over-hasty and tries setting up a conflicting movement prematurely, the locking will do its job and stop him moving the points under the arriving train.

 

Where points are locked by track circuits however, there may be nothing to stop restoring the lever once the points are locked by the track circuit.

Apart from good practice and observing the requirements of the Regulations that where facing points are involved the trains is required to have passed beynd the points before teh signal is returned to danger. Old provisions die hard it would seem although it is good signalling practice as it dsscourages people from attempting quick restiing of things ready for the next move.

 

778355385_stopsigsreplaced.jpg.da87558b541557eaac4c1c6b3cf43a35.jpg

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4 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Could it be done with a DCC Kernow Railmotor or an autocoach?

 

https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/50706/K2301-GWR-Steam-Railmotor-Diagram-R-number-93-in-GWR-Crimson

 

Assuming

(a) Kernow ever do have the Railmotor in stock

(b) the DCC Railmotor can be very loosely attached (or not attached at all) to the rear of the main train

I suppose the simple answer is yes you could do that, however you'd be stretching the imagination to see a Steam Railmotor as being a slip coach.

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Or an auto trailer.  I suppose one could install a powered bogie into a proper  slip coach and control it's decelleration into a station to a stop with DCC, and possibly have it not coupled to the train but geared to be faster than the train so that it looked coupled but was actually pushing the train along.  The main train is left running at it's normal speed but the chip in the slip coach can reduce the current to it's motor so that the slip falls behind under control. 

 

Given the linear spatial compression of most layouts, it would probably be more realistic to just have the main train appear on the layout, run through, and then dissappear back into the fiddle yard at line speed, and then 'drive' the slip into the station about 30 seconds later.  As high speed  slips took place about a mile out, you would need a scale mile, not far off 70 actual feet, to model the full working including the slip operation correctly and even a compromise solution would suggest at least a quarter of a mile.  That's over 17 feet between the exit from the fy to the station, and while there are layouts around that can cope with this sort of space, there are not many of them.

 

A railmotor or auto trailer is unsuitable for conversion to a slip coach, and while anything is possible if enough money or time is thrown at it, it would really be easier to stick to kits, scratchbuilding, or modifying RTR to make slip coaches.  The Hornby Hawksworth Brake Composite is probably the most obvious RTR candidate, but is only suitable for the BR period.  Prior to that you are looking for gangwayed Brake Composites, and the only other RTR is the Mainline/Replica/Bachmann 'Sunshine' BCK, and I am not sure that there were slip coach versions of these. 

 

Railmotors/auto trailers are not even remotely similar.  They have severely bow ended bodies and underframes, whereas slips were flat ended, and the end windows are much bigger than those on slip coaches; the centre one on slip coaches has a droplight.  An exception might be the 'Clifton Downs' flat ended compartment trailers, which were converted from Dean designed non-ganwayed cascaded ex-main line stock that might have had slip versions; you'd have to research it.  Roxey do kits for this coach in auto trailer form; a slip version would have had smaller front windows but might be acceptable apart from that.

 

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  • 5 weeks later...
On 09/05/2021 at 15:29, The Johnster said:

it would really be easier to stick to kits, scratchbuilding, or modifying RTR to make slip coaches.  The Hornby Hawksworth Brake Composite is probably the most obvious RTR candidate, but is only suitable for the BR period.  Prior to that you are looking for gangwayed Brake Composites, and the only other RTR is the Mainline/Replica/Bachmann 'Sunshine' BCK, and I am not sure that there were slip coach versions of these. 

 

Does anyone know what kits are suitable and still available?

Ideally with links please. :)

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On 08/06/2021 at 12:48, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Does anyone know what kits are suitable and still available?

Ideally with links please. :)

Add three more from Worlsey Works to this list which produce a body etches for the single ended F20 and also F1 and F10 clerestory slips in addition to the F5 on the GWR list.

 

Mike Wiltshire

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1 hour ago, Coach bogie said:

Add three more from Worlsey Works to this list which produce a body etches for the single ended F20 and also F1 and F10 clerestory slips in addition to the F5 on the GWR list.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Thanks Mike.

 

However, is Worsley Works a bit of a tease?

 

Quote

 

STEAM RAILCAR - STEAM RAIL MOTORS

Railcar 93Dia R As running at Didcot£50 00

Trailer 92Dia U As running at Didcot£50 00

 

Slip CompositeF146'6"***New £55 00

Slip CompositeF550'***£50 00

Brake Composite SlipF1058'***£50 00

 

 

http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/4mm/4mm_GWR.htm#

 

A very bare listing of items, and no pictures (or none that are obvious).

 

On one hand, I'm not complaining, because I do appreciate not everyone has the time/inclination/skills to maintain top quality websites with loads of pictures.

 

On the other hand, I am complaining, because how does anyone know what they will get for their money?

 

Hmm, slightly frustrating. A search on eBay for "Worsley Works" does, however, show a few items with pictures.

 

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Kits, unfortunately, are becoming a little problematic; actually they always were but are becoming more so.  Most of the kit producers are one man band cottage industry operations and it is a part of the trade that is in serious decline as the owners retire or are withdrawn from service altogether and transferred to the Great Engine Shed In The Sky.  Sometimes the ranges are taken on by others, but all too often these are also approaching retirement and the thing becomes too onerous to continue with.  Comet (who don't AFAIK do a slip coach kit but have a good range of GWR coaches) are pretty solid and good value, but other manufacturers will need researching and it is not always easy to find up to date information about them. 

 

A possibly acceptable 'layout' slip coach could perhpas be cobbled up from a brake composite.  There were single and double ended slips; for a single ended slip you need to remove the gangway connection at that end and cut the windows in.  The central one has a droplight which I think was the means by which the slip guard attached a headlamp to his portion.  'SLIP' branding and an auto type gong below the windows, and a number of vacuum reservoir cylinders on the underframe (these are not the same as the operating cylinders, they are crossways mounted between the trusses) which enabled the guard to be able to release the vacuum brake after he'd already applied it for a controlled stop).

 

A double ended slip, which can be slipped to another destination on it's return journey without needing to be turned, needs the treatment at both ends of the coach.  TTBOMK there were no double ended Hawksworth slips and and I don't think there were any Colletts; you have to go back to Churchward toplight days, but I am happy to be proved wrong on this point.  Ends were painted black, another difference from auto coaches.

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Comet slip?

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/carriage/w46k/

 

I would go for that rather than the equivalent one in the Phoenix range. My view point of the BSL/Phoenix range is they are a bit dated and a lot of work.

 

 

Too modern? Try the Roxey clerestory.

 

https://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/1044/4c56-gwr-f12-38ft-6in-slip-composite/

 

 

 

Jason

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I have built from several Worsley Etches and they are fine, especially considering the diagrams that only Worsley produce such as the C16 clerestory to go on the Hornby body.  Decent thickness of sides as well. some kits are paper thin and distort easily. Here is what you get for the Worsley D42/H2 Dreadnought Tea car. No one else makes this. Worsley etched this up for me amongst others and it is now in his range. Clerestories have bespoke roof designs that slot and tab together with roof strips etched in- much improvement on the Mallard one size fits all roof sections. 

 

Mike Wiltshire

592062298_D48etchlr.jpg.cfa71eeb2d2aa4f899f03a0777682c0a.jpgh8a.jpg.20f1611eed769bd3be2f87bb568f6cfb.jpg

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3 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

@Steamport Southport - Excellent, thanks!

 

Can you recommend any makes of disc 14mm carriage wheels and bearings that match?

 

Any should do depending on taste and how easy they are to get.

 

Alan Gibson, Romford/Markits, some people even use the Hornby or Bachmann ones. ISTR that Larry Goddard (Coachman) had switched to the Hornby ones for some reason lost in the mists of time.

 

The ones Andrew sells are pretty good, the 51L brand. But I think he's been out of stock for a while apart from some variants.

 

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/?ixwpst[product_cat][0]=28&ixwpst[pa_3_manufacturer][0]=192&title=1&excerpt=1&content=1&categories=1&attributes=1&tags=1&sku=1&ixwpsf[taxonomy][product_cat][show]=set&ixwpsf[taxonomy][product_cat][multiple]=0&ixwpsf[taxonomy][product_cat][filter]=1&ixwpsf[taxonomy][pa_1_scale][show]=set&ixwpsf[taxonomy][pa_1_scale][multiple]=0&ixwpsf[taxonomy][pa_1_scale][filter]=1&ixwpsf[taxonomy][pa_2_railway_company][show]=set&ixwpsf[taxonomy][pa_2_railway_company][multiple]=0&ixwpsf[taxonomy][pa_2_railway_company][filter]=0&ixwpsf[taxonomy][pa_3_manufacturer][show]=set&ixwpsf[taxonomy][pa_3_manufacturer][multiple]=0&ixwpsf[taxonomy][pa_3_manufacturer][filter]=1

 

As an example of them, this is the EM version of the standard two hole disc coach wheel.

 

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/wheels/18205/

 

The bearings are pretty much all the same regardless of brand. Either Shouldered (Top Hat), Flangeless or Waisted.

 

For Comet kits you normally need the Top Hat type. 

 

 

Jason

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On 11/06/2021 at 11:54, Coach bogie said:

I have built from several Worsley Etches and they are fine, especially considering the diagrams that only Worsley produce such as the C16 clerestory to go on the Hornby body.  Decent thickness of sides as well. some kits are paper thin and distort easily. Here is what you get for the Worsley D42/H2 Dreadnought Tea car. No one else makes this. Worsley etched this up for me amongst others and it is now in his range. Clerestories have bespoke roof designs that slot and tab together with roof strips etched in- much improvement on the Mallard one size fits all roof sections. 

 

Mike Wiltshire

Good to see the etches, I should be receiving the similar D42 brake third any time now and rather looking forward to it

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