Freight loco's of the BR steam era

[Chrisd346]

I am in the process of building a fleet of loco's. At present I have:

 

3x A3's

1x A4

1x Castle

1x M. Navy

1x Britannia

 

I want to add a few smaller passenger/branchline loco's but as I am sure you can see I have totally neglected freight engines and, tbh, I don't know much about them.

 

I will add a 9F at some point but what were the main freight engines working the rails in the late 50's and early 60's. I am not modelling any specific area so all suggestions welcome!

[Il Grifone]

An ex LMS 8F 2-8-0 (seen almost everywhere), ex GWR 28xx 2-8-0 and/or Ex LNER O4*. For lighter traffic almost any 0-6-0 tank or tender would do. Medium sized mixed traffic locos would also be suitable (Anything with an 'MT' or 'F' power code). Even the Britannia was supposed to be a mixed traffic locomotive. Later in the sixties, even the express passenger locomotives found themselves on freight duties.

 

* I'm not sure how long the O4s lasted.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The O4 hung on to 1966. The other major 2-8-0 class not mentioned above is the WD 'austerity' type. Unlike the company designs which remained most common on home turf, (and in the case of the 28xx had difficulty getting off it due to clearance problems) this one was a war time build subsequently allocated very widely over BR.

 

The freight loco type that was most common was the 0-6-0. In both tender and tank locos, easily the most common wheel arrangement to run on the UK railway, yet grossly under-represented in model form, both in terms of the choice available RTR, and what most folks have running on their layouts. Aim at having at least a dozen of these (roughly 50:50 0-6-0 : 0-6-0T) for each of your spiffy pacifics to represent the real railway's ratio (BR peaked at 458 pacifics, had about 6,000 0-6-0 and 0-6-0T at that time).

[Bob O]

Crab,K3,Hall and Black5 maybe your priority should be the 9f

[Chrisd346]

Thanks for the advice gents!

 

9F most certainly on the cards sometime but I do like the notion of all those 0-6-0's rolling around. I didn't know the ratio to 4-6-2's was that large though, thankfully I have a soft spot for Panniers and I believe Bachmann do a nice model of it!?

 

Yes I have read about the big express engines doing freight work to earn their keep. Obviously the Britannia's would be no shock and I can live with the idea of the A3's and Bulleid Pacifics doing it also but surely the A4's were never relegated to this, were they?

[Karhedron]

Yes I have read about the big express engines doing freight work to earn their keep. Obviously the Britannia's would be no shock and I can live with the idea of the A3's and Bulleid Pacifics doing it also but surely the A4's were never relegated to this, were they?

Oh no?

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/49822-a4-locos-on-freight-a-couple-of-photos/

 

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2283176

 

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/ykb-dh-60007.jpg

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/31514768@N05/3530165513/

 

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/00000-eaw-dh-deltic-selby-5b.jpg

[Baby Deltic]

The 'Jinty' 0-6-0 is a good all rounder. They could be used on passenger, freight, station pilot and shunting duties and were pretty widespread in their area of operation.

[Happy Hippo]

A balanced loco stud is the ideal, but most modellers do tend to favour the imbalance of the more popular express engines rather than the humble tank and dedicated freight engines.

 

I'd suggest that since your railway modelling is fairly generic, then a Stanier 8F would fill the gap quite nicely, followed by a couple of medium power 0-6-0 tender locos such as the 3/4F

 

As someone who has a slight BR(W) bias, I've refrained from mentioning the superb choice of locos from which you could take inspiration.

 

As an aside, I'm looking for pics of 60xx 'King' locos on freight working. Did they, or was their fall from grace following the introduction of the hydraulic fleet so rapid, that they were never reduced to such lowly work?

 

Regards

 

Richard

[JeffP]

Thanks for the advice gents!

 

9F most certainly on the cards sometime but I do like the notion of all those 0-6-0's rolling around. I didn't know the ratio to 4-6-2's was that large though, thankfully I have a soft spot for Panniers and I believe Bachmann do a nice model of it!?

 

Yes I have read about the big express engines doing freight work to earn their keep. Obviously the Britannia's would be no shock and I can live with the idea of the A3's and Bulleid Pacifics doing it also but surely the A4's were never relegated to this, were they?

 

Depends what you mean by "relegated"? Certainly, on a train like the "Scotch Goods", which ran from North London to Edinburgh, an A4 would be a regular turn.

 

But for BR steam, the WD "Austerity" was the one that got everywhere. There was even a "namer", it was one of ours at Frodingham before withdrawal.

[Karhedron]

As an aside, I'm looking for pics of 60xx 'King' locos on freight working. Did they, or was their fall from grace following the introduction of the hydraulic fleet so rapid, that they were never reduced to such lowly work?

There was a regular milk working that was diagrammed for King haulage, even before the hydraulic revolution. I can't remember which one it was but I will try to look it up.

[YK 50A]

Just to add my pennies worth, there's so much to go at, a history lesson on a layout!  Pre-grouping, post-grouping, BR standard classes - anything in plain or lined BR black, with the Rampant Lion and Wheel (or Ferret and Dart Board) emblem, and as alluded to above, with an "F" or "MT" classification.

 

Stanier Black 5's and 8F's, Austerity 2-8-0's and Standard 2's and 4's (in tank and tender engine varieties) are probably about as ubiquitous as you can get, although Fowler 4F's and Hughes Crab's are my personal favourites for some reason.  It's not my era, but if region is not an issue, along with the 9F and Pannier which you've decided on, I would get the Bachmann and Hornby catalogues out and see what you like the look of.

 

Alun

[The Stationmaster]

A balanced loco stud is the ideal, but most modellers do tend to favour the imbalance of the more popular express engines rather than the humble tank and dedicated freight engines.

 

I'd suggest that since your railway modelling is fairly generic, then a Stanier 8F would fill the gap quite nicely, followed by a couple of medium power 0-6-0 tender locos such as the 3/4F

 

As someone who has a slight BR(W) bias, I've refrained from mentioning the superb choice of locos from which you could take inspiration.

 

As an aside, I'm looking for pics of 60xx 'King' locos on freight working. Did they, or was their fall from grace following the introduction of the hydraulic fleet so rapid, that they were never reduced to such lowly work?

 

Regards

 

Richard

I can't recall ever seeing, or seeing a picture of, a 'King' on freight work - it was probably some sort of hanging offence or involved being thrown into a vat of boiling oil at Swindon if a Running Foreman ever dared make such an allocation.  More likely it was down to the fact that there weren't many of them and there was plenty of passenger work for them (someone will now produce a pic of KGV on a coal train at Newport no doubt!).

 

'Kings' did of course get involved with parcels and perishables working and probably milk trains on occasion but as all of that was officially (and actually) passenger rated traffic that still doesn't count as freight.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Yes I have read about the big express engines doing freight work to earn their keep. Obviously the Britannia's would be no shock and I can live with the idea of the A3's and Bulleid Pacifics doing it also but surely the A4's were never relegated to this, were they?

 Actually the ER pacific classes were specifically rostered onto the heavier fast fully braked turns for their ability to whang along at and above 60mph with very large loads; and not so much worry about water as with a V2 thanks to the much greater tender capacity. The East Coast ran the fastest steam worked freight turns in the UK, thanks to having sufficient of the puissant wide firebox power to do it. The overnight fish was probably the apogee; uniquely among traditionally worked freight, on some services it was permitted to have the brake van positioned one third in from the train end to make the riding tolerable for the guard. Something of a limitation on photography was the fact these ran largely in darkness. The Scotch goods was another celebrated turn, the game apparently was to see how far North you could get before being turned off the main for the Talisman service galloping along behind. There was even a daily fast mineral turn from High Dyke to Aldwarke, class 4 fully fitted freight carrying ironstone. Allocated a V2 or pacific, and there is photographic evidence that the pacifics could be seen on this operation.

[Chrisd346]

A real wealth of knowledge here, thank you all kindly.

 

Its nice to have a few to aim for. Particular interests now are the Stanier 8F, Black 5(how did I forget that), 9F and a good collection of 0-6-0's. Reminds me I once had a Hornby J94 and thought highly of it.

 

A few other names I am not familiar with but will research all suggestions. I guess I also learned something too, those photo's of the A4's on freight are remarkable. I wonder how Merlin would feel about hauling some wagons for me!

[JeffP]

Happy to be doing so, instead of standing atTthe Plant awaiting the cutter's torch?

 

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1440&bih=775&q=silver+link&oq=silver+link&gs_l=img.3..0l5j0i5l4j0i10i24.2082.4933.0.5620.11.11.0.0.0.0.55.494.11.11.0.ekwqrh..0.0...1.1.6.img.tD5LkvzkNno#imgrc=et_02KSSF6o8PM%3A%3B3VKZP116orC6pM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fupload.wikimedia.org%252Fwikipedia%252Fcommons%252F2%252F2c%252F60014_Silver_Link_Doncaster_Works.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fcommons.wikimedia.org%252Fwiki%252FFile%253A60014_Silver_Link_Doncaster_Works.jpg%3B750%3B508

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... I wonder how Merlin would feel about hauling some wagons for me!

 You need to see the album 'Eastern Steam in colour' by Hugh Ballantyne (Janes) on facing pages you get Wild Swan coasting fast with an up class 4 fully fitted van train as it  approaches Potters Bar, and Merlin jogging along at Chaloner's Whin on an unbraked through freight (most likely a running in turn following main works overhaul).

[TheSignalEngineer]

.................... but surely the A4's were never relegated to this, were they?

Trains Illustrated or Modern Railways carried a photo in the early / mid 1960s of an A4 on a rake of unfitted 16 tonners around the Grantham area.

[Phil Bullock]

Actually the ER pacific classes were specifically rostered onto the heavier fast fully braked turns for their ability to whang along at and above 60mph with very large loads; and not so much worry about water as with a V2 thanks to the much greater tender capacity. The East Coast ran the fastest steam worked freight turns in the UK, thanks to having sufficient of the puissant wide firebox power to do it. The overnight fish was probably the apogee; uniquely among traditionally worked freight, on some services it was permitted to have the brake van positioned one third in from the train end to make the riding tolerable for the guard. Something of a limitation on photography was the fact these ran largely in darkness. The Scotch goods was another celebrated turn, the game apparently was to see how far North you could get before being turned off the main for the Talisman service galloping along behind. There was even a daily fast mineral turn from High Dyke to Aldwarke, class 4 fully fitted freight carrying ironstone. Allocated a V2 or pacific, and there is photographic evidence that the pacifics could be seen on this operation.

Ah yes theres a rather nice tale in "The Eastern since 1948" which gives a clue as to how these operations sometimes worked. A KX driver who was well known for running them was put inside at Peterborough with a hot box on a wagon in one of these trains - 266 down, The Scotch Goods behind an A1 perhaps. Having performed the shunt manouvere to remove the offending vehicle he was stood at the yard exit signal as the down Talisman came past - now I cant remember exactly how far it was before he caught up with this crack express, from a standing start....

 

I am off my turf/out of era in relating this tale so forgive if the facts are not clear but you get the picture!

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[rannorgana]

Trains Illustrated or Modern Railways carried a photo in the early / mid 1960s of an A4 on a rake of unfitted 16 tonners around the Grantham area.

 

A quick check of Profile of the A4's and the Power of the A4's has:

 

Profile:

 

60001 Sir Ronald Mathews on the Down Niddrie Goods July '62, Stoke tunnel

60002 Sir Murrough Wilson Northbound freight Monkton Hall july '62

60011 Empire Of India Grantham, may '59 (might be the one you were thinking of?) has a long rake of loaded 16 tonners on the back.

60011 Empire Of India Granthouse August '60 a coal train again!

60019 Bittern now ex-BR Healey Mills Sept' '66 on the York Healey Mills goods in place of the normal V2

60025 Falcon Greenwood Loose-coupled Goods June '59

60029 Woodcock Potters Bar Niddrie Goods Sept' '59

 

Power:

 

60010 Dominion Of Canada Fitted Goods Wood Green July '52

60010 Dominion Of Canada Down Scotch Goods Hadley Wood Tunnel date unknown (post '56)

60013 Dominion Of New Zealand Scotch Goods Stoke Bank Date unknown (post '56)

 

 

needless to say there would of been many other time when A4's worked Goods trains in BR days I have simply listed the photos of such that are included within the previously mentioned books.

[Bob O]

A4s were 8p6f so intended as all rounders

[YK 50A]

A4s were 8p6f so intended as all rounders

 

Apologies for appearing pedantic, but this was not as "intended".  BR Power Classification was a Midland Railway system, adopted by the LMS and finally by BR in 1948.  It was based on continuous tractive effort at 50mph for passenger trains and 25mph for freight.  As such, it was arbitrary.

 

This does not take away from the fact the what might be imagined as passenger locomotives found work on freight trains and equally, freight locomotives could find work on passenger trains (some being equipped with steam heating apparatus for the purpose - not just for heated tanks, wagons and vans).

 

Alun

[The Stationmaster]

Ah yes theres a rather nice tale in "The Eastern since 1948" which gives a clue as to how these operations sometimes worked. A KX driver who was well known for running them was put inside at Peterborough with a hot box on a wagon in one of these trains - 266 down, The Scotch Goods behind an A1 perhaps. Having performed the shunt manouvere to remove the offending vehicle he was stood at the yard exit signal as the down Talisman came past - now I cant remember exactly how far it was before he caught up with this crack express, from a standing start....

 

I am off my turf/out of era in relating this tale so forgive if the facts are not clear but you get the picture!

 

Cheers

 

Phil

Reputedly one Bill Hoole - who was rather well known for 'running a bit hard'.

[Chrisd346]

Crikey, it was much more common than I had imagined! Did Mallard ever do freight etc? I would be very surprised if she ever had.

 

I'm also a fan of the Q1. Did these often, or ever, leave southern metals?

[DaveF]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/49822-a4-locos-on-freight-a-couple-of-photos/

 

A couple of A4s on freight from an earlier thread.  Photos by my Dad.

 

David

[Oldddudders]

Crikey, it was much more common than I had imagined! Did Mallard ever do freight etc? I would be very surprised if she ever had.

 

I'm also a fan of the Q1. Did these often, or ever, leave southern metals?

http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/02/64/64/2646423_3516e636.jpg Here is one on the 4-rail at Acton Wells so it is a fair bet that they were used on Cross-London transfer freights to Willesden, Temple Mills, Cricklewood, Acton. With their 5F rating, they would be pretty useful on such trips.