Level crossing stupidity...

[Colin_McLeod]

On 26/03/2019 at 08:04, corneliuslundie said:

I assume it must have been a body mounted camera, so perhaps the way it is clipped on. But more to the point, I could see no barrier the other side of the track. Was there one?

Jonathan

 

I can see a barrier on the other side of the track.

Take a closer look.

[talisman56]

On 26/03/2019 at 10:52, Richard E said:

 

Apologies for staying off topic but the Imp window is steel framed, it was the Talbot Sunbeam (Avenger hatchback) that had a frameless hatch.

 

Imp has the battery in the offside rear corner of the engine bay:

 

 

And, yes, I know that isn't an Imp engine in there. It's a BMW K1200 motorbike engine, about 140bhp compared to the 39bhp of a production Imp.

 

 

The words sh1t and shovel spring immediately to mind...

[Dunsignalling]

24 minutes ago, talisman56 said:

 

The words sh1t and shovel spring immediately to mind...

Years ago, I saw an Imp with a Rover V8 where the rear seat had previously been situated. Street legal, too, though I think it was primarily a hillclimb car.

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

On ‎26‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 11:02, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

What ave you done to the front end to stop it taking off? Even with a standard Imp engine the front end would lift at about 80mph.

There used to be an aftermarket "splitter" made to bolt on under the front. A sack of sand in the boot did the rest.

 

John

[Ramblin Rich]

Back on topic, unfortunately. This happened yesterday. No comment yet on cause or fault.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-47732763

Edited March 29, 2019 by Ramblin Rich
typos

[Hobby]

Yes, I held fire over that because of the background to it (and the complete havoc it caused). There is a lot more to it than a simple level crossing accident and I'd suggest that we wait until the official report is published which will tell us all the background, until then it's just speculation and I feel it would be unfair on those affected.

[Oldddudders]

6 minutes ago, Hobby said:

Yes, I held fire over that because of the background to it (and the complete havoc it caused). There is a lot more to it than a simple level crossing accident and I'd suggest that we wait until the official report is published which will tell us all the background, until then it's just speculation and I feel it would be unfair on those affected.

Havoc indeed. I started a thread about the incident, not in terms of what happened on site, but the immediate repercussions on the paying passenger, about 24 hrs ago. But I have been told it was unfair, so that’s that. Look for Stoke Cannon (yes, misspelt!) in Unread Content. 

[Hobby]

Probably best to keep the discussion about that incident over there as it's certainly not a typical "accident" and there's a lot more "background" as people have already indicated. It'll be a while until facts come out I expect...

 

 

I can't comment on what was said though the "go to the bus station" does seem very odd and not something I'd have expected! Sometimes that is the advice given, though, we see it quite a lot in New Street when the Cross City line is closed and they get the local bus operators to accept rail tickets. But they are just for local services and not long distance,

[jim.snowdon]

When that, or any other sort of incident happens, the reason why is not the first thing a passenger needs to know, if he needs to know at all. What he does need is constructive information as to how to finish off his journey, and a train/railway operator who can use the rule book and the available resources to run as much of a service as they can, not declare it too difficult and give up. Part of that is keeping sufficient staff with the competencies to allow the workarounds that the rule book does provide for to be implemented, not cutting staff numbers and training to the bone just to balance the bottom line.

 

Jim

[corneliuslundie]

Having read the other thread I agree that it is best to leave the discussion there.

My only comment is that at the time the suggestion to go to the bus station was made it is perfectly possible that it was the best advice because of uncertainty as to how long it would take to organise replacement buses. As commented, if it is school run time the chances of finding available local buses and drivers is minimal, so the delay might have been much longer than that caused by following the advice given. 

On one occasion on the Cambrian line it was known at Newtown an hour before the bus was needed that there would need to be a bus from Machynlleth to Aberystwyth - i can't now remember the reason. But it took two hours to sources a bus despite there being a bus operator adjacent to the station in Machynlleth - but with no buses/crew available. The bus had o come that far to provide the service.

Jonathan

[Hobby]

Bus companies run the same was as every other industry these days, whether transport or otherwise, minimum staff needed for the day's work. There aren't buses and drivers just sitting around waiting just in case the railways have a hiccup (was there ever?)...

Edited March 29, 2019 by Hobby

[PhilJ W]

10 minutes ago, Hobby said:

Bus companies run the same was as every other industry these days, whether transport or otherwise, minimum staff needed for the day's work. There aren't buses and drivers just sitting around waiting just in case the railways have a hiccup (was there ever?)...

When my late dad was on the buses in the early 60's they had a spare crew most days sitting in the canteen drinking tea and reading newspapers.

[Hobby]

I suspect they do now, same as we have "spares" on the railways... But having one or two crew around isn't much use when you have to move several hundred people! Also with a modern coach costing several hundred thousand I doubt they'll have many of them sitting around doing nothing "just in case" either! I know it's not the best answer but in these sorts of incidents people just have to be patient, my experience is that, same as the rest of modern society, they are not. Though keeping them informed is, as always, the priority, even if it's just telling them that nothing has changed but we are doing our best...

Edited March 29, 2019 by Hobby

[lmsforever]

All people today can do is argue that they should be in the right and if hurt usually by there own stupidity the cry is I will sue you!

[laurenceb]

Nowadays bus operators have enough trouble finding and keeping enough staff for their regular work never mind having spares 

[JDW]

As far as bus operators go, having worked for a large one with both bus and coach divisions for many years, I can say that bus operators might have a spare driver and depending on maintenance requirements, time of day, etc might have buses available, but that doesn't mean they can be sent out to do a rail replacement.  The driver might only be spare for an hour at the start of his shift, maybe as a result of a school closure meaning his school run isn't needed, or he might be on "domestic" hours, when for unscheduled rail replacement he'd need to use a tachograph.  Even if the operator has buses that are fitted with tachographs, and the driver knows EU hours regulations, and even if he has time to do it before his first scheduled duty, he might not be able to do it without exceeding the slightly more restrictive EU drivers hours or rest limits.  It would also mean he would have to adhere to EU rules for rest periods for the remained of that week, which could mean he could no longer do his own shift, and also EU rules for record keeping for 28 days (keeping his tacho, etc). 

 

Basically, for a domestic-hours driver, it's a complete no-no as it's just too much of a faff and for the sake of one trip could mean rescheduling him for the rest of the week/fortnight, plus the snowball effect on other drivers.  Of course, the depot might not have tacho-fitted buses in the first place.  

 

Turning to coach companies, certainly from our perspective we'd rarely have anyone specifically "spare" in the coaching department, which to all intents and purposes is a separate division for us.  We might well have a driver coming in earlier than his booked job "just in case", if for example we're having to pay him a full day anyway, for a job that might only take 5 hours, so that he's around if needed.  During school terms, we usually have enough people that, with a bit of give and take, we can shunt jobs around, tighten things up, get drivers to cover other runs, to pull a driver to go and do an urgent rail job, whilst at the same time phoning around part timers to come in and cover that driver's remaining local jobs.  But again that depends on how close to capacity we are already (rail aren't the only ones needing last minute jobs or changes!) and the status of the fleet.  If the call is late at night (I've had phone calls at 3am for coaches for 5 or 6am) then it's also a question of being able to get hold of drivers and confirm their availability which can take time, and then they have to get to the depot, check the vehicle, get to the station, etc.  

 

Our supervisor called the office at 5am one morning from his car on the way in to work, I'd just walked in, and he told me to go and get a coach ready, a driver would be arriving in about fifteen minutes and needed to go straight away, as he was due at a railway station over 3 hours away for a journey that was due to leave at 0830...  He made it with minutes to spare!

 

We also have to consider whether sending a driver/s to help will then leave us short the following day - it's no good calling all hands to the pumps on a Sunday afternoon when most drivers are off if that then means we are 3 drivers short for Monday morning schools because they finished too late.  We might be able to call in one of our subcontractors to cover the run, or if they have a coach idle in the city waiting to take a private hire group back home later, ask them to cover our afternoon school run so that our driver can go and do a longer-distance rail run.  There's all sorts of ways, and although I can only speak for the company I know, I can assure you that when the call comes in, any time of day or night, we will be looking at it and seeing what we can put out and who we can wake up at 3am to come and do it.  I've been in the position of having to tell a rail operator that we don't have anything, knowing that we were the best placed and most likely to be able to cover it, and how many people were waiting, and it's not a fun call to have to make.  Thankfully that was rare for us, and we can usually send something, to at least set the ball rolling while other operators get there.  

 

Apologies for the long post, I thought some might find it interesting to know what's going off in the back office (lots of phone calls between rail and operators!) as well as why buses/coaches might not be available in such situations.  

 

(Minor edit for clarity)

Edited March 29, 2019 by JDW

[TravisM]

3 hours ago, Hobby said:

I suspect they do now, same as we have "spares" on the railways...

 

You’ve obviously not worked for Stagecoach Bus!  Everything there is at a minimum and that includes running times.  Your late before you’ve even left so no, private bus companies don’t have spares like they did on National Bus and council run bus companies.

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, JDW said:

As far as bus operators go, having worked for a large one with both bus and coach divisions for many years, I can say that bus operators might have a spare driver and depending on maintenance requirements, time of day, etc might have buses available, but that doesn't mean they can be sent out to do a rail replacement.  The driver might only be spare for an hour at the start of his shift, maybe as a result of a school closure meaning his school run isn't needed, or he might be on "domestic" hours, when for unscheduled rail replacement he'd need to use a tachograph.  Even if the operator has buses that are fitted with tachographs, and the driver knows EU hours regulations, and even if he has time to do it before his first scheduled duty, he might not be able to do it without exceeding the slightly more restrictive EU drivers hours or rest limits.  It would also mean he would have to adhere to EU rules for rest periods for the remained of that week, which could mean he could no longer do his own shift, and also EU rules for record keeping for 28 days (keeping his tacho, etc).

 

This is a VERY important thing for folk to note!

 

An ordinary scheduled bus service does not require a Tachograph precisely because it runs to a pre approved schedule with sufficient statutory rest breaks built into the timetable and drivers working hours are fixed.

 

By contrast ANYTHING else - even if it is run by the likes Stagecoach South West Busses Ltd (be it a school run, a outing to the seaside, a shoppers special at Christmas or a Rail replacement service) requires a bus equipped with a Tacograph and a driver who can be proven to have had sufficient rest.

 

In other words just as Train operators cannot magically procure extra train crew or stock , the same is true of bus companies.

Edited March 29, 2019 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

14 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Havoc indeed. I started a thread about the incident, not in terms of what happened on site, but the immediate repercussions on the paying passenger, about 24 hrs ago. But I have been told it was unfair, so that’s that. Look for Stoke Cannon (yes, misspelt!) in Unread Content. 

 

Its not so much what you said - rather a case of the disparaging nature of words you used and your quickness to cast aspersions.

 

When the dust settles it may well be there were shortcomings which rightly need to be aired - and I don't believe anyone would wish to prevent that from occurring.

[JDW]

8 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

This is a VERY important thing for folk to note!

 

An ordinary scheduled bus service does not require a Tachograph precisely because it runs to a pre approved schedule with sufficient statutory rest breaks built into the timetable and drivers working hours are fixed.

 

By contrast ANYTHING else - even if it is run by the likes Stagecoach South West Busses Ltd (be it a school run, a outing to the seaside, a shoppers special at Christmas or a Rail replacement service requires a bus equipped with a Tacograph and a driver who can be proven to have had sufficient rest.

 

In other words just as Train operators cannot magically procure extra train crew or stock , the same is true of bus companies.

 

Yes, that's true, and very well explained Phil. 

 

To be slightly pedantic (it's the internet, someone has to be) school buses can also be registered scheduled services of course, and thus not need a tacho.  Likewise short distance pre-planned rail replacement can be done on domestic hours if the driver is working to a timetable the same as a service bus - we did this for a long term replacement service, and used "service" drivers on domestic hours, we made up schedules and running boards for each duty just like for a city bus route.  Of course, this is very much the exception rather than the rule, but I thought I'd say it before someone else waded in with "what if/how about when..."!

[Compound2632]

We've come a long way from those high Victorian days when passengers were asked to detrain, escorted on foot past the wreckage, and then boarded a replacement train on the other side...

[corneliuslundie]

Please don't feel insulted, Olddudders. Things are in any case probably different in urban and rural areas, and I was commenting on the latter. But it has provoked some useful comment and information, some of which I was completely unaware of.  As so often here on RMWeb, an apparently innocent comment by a relative outsider can draw out all sorts of informed comments from those intimately involved in the subject.

Jonathan

[melmerby]

Couple of chancers here:

 

[Oldddudders]

3 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Please don't feel insulted, Olddudders. Things are in any case probably different in urban and rural areas, and I was commenting on the latter. But it has provoked some useful comment and information, some of which I was completely unaware of.  As so often here on RMWeb, an apparently innocent comment by a relative outsider can draw out all sorts of informed comments from those intimately involved in the subject.

Jonathan

Thankyou. I have met Philb259 and am aware that he is one of RMweb’s more forthright posters. 

 

My position remains that when the service is severely sh*gged like this, irrespective of the cause, the industry, in this case represented by the TOC, needs to go down on one knee to its customers/passengers. I inferred that there wasn’t much grovelling going on, nor info to the effect that buses/coaches/rickshaws were being sought but would not be available for quite some time. 

 

I am sure staff at St D’s were going round the bend, as all platforms became blocked and a zillion unhappy punters found themselves turfed off. [Had it happened two days earlier I would have been there too, on the Up Golden Hind, which on Tuesday actually ran perfectly.]  But they aren’t the ones who run the website.

 

Enough.

[Hobby]

I have to disagree re "grovelling", they shouldn't have to do that. What they should do, however, is keep people informed. As Robert pointed out on that other thread there's a lot needs to be done, coaches can't just be pulled out of a hat like rabbits, so the passengers need to be kept informed what is happening and, if possible, an estimate of timescales.

 

Also passengers need to have some patience as well, and not expect everything yesterday.