Level crossing stupidity...

[Hobby]

My reading is that he went past the second sign at walking pace with no intention of stopping at it so he could get up to the gates where he would then stop (to save a few minutes of time?). It reads as though he had no intention of stopping at that sign even though it told him that for the type of train he was driving he had to top unless the gates were already open for rail traffic.

 

"The driver stopped at the first stop board and then proceeded at walking pace, past the second stop board, with the intention of stopping close to the crossing gates."

 

 

 

We'll have to agree to differ on this one, Mike, even the RAIB thought the sign was OK. 

Edited April 15, 2019 by Hobby

[kevinlms]

Just reread the report and it states, that the driver stopped at the first board (120 metres before the crossing), yet by the time he got to the 2nd board (30 metres before), he was travelling too fast to stop. So must have accelerated quite sharply, over the intervening 90 metres.* Plus of course he overshot by at least 35 metres, since he collected the gates.

 

Makes me wonder if he DID actually stop at the first sign.

 

Both signs apply ONLY to unfitted trains. How often does the Festiniog Railway run unfitted trains? Not very often, I suspect. Infrequent enough for drivers to be especially reminded in some way, BEFORE they head off, with such a train?

 

The signs do have something about them that IS confusing. That is that the signs have the words UNFITTED TRAINS STOP, in different places within the rest of the wording. That I believe is poor practice.

 

 

 

* OK, why are metric units used in a report such as this, when the country uses imperial measurements, including most railway speed limits?

[big jim]

I know it’s the daily mail and I don’t like linking to it but i’ll Just leave this here

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6922433/Mother-straight-student-hit-killed-silent-train-sues-Network-Rail-22-000.html

 

Words fail me! 

[ejstubbs]

Also in the Telegraph, if you prefer: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/04/14/silent-night-trains-killed-daughter-mother-claims-sues-network/

 

Inquest report here: https://www.brighouseecho.co.uk/news/teen-killed-in-tragic-accident-1-7117359

 

 

[Wickham Green]

How silent can a train be in the still of night ?

[JDW]

Absolutely crazy.  As much as I can understand the family wanting some kind of closure that isn't blaming their daughter, and as much as I sympathise with the loss of life, there can only be two people to blame here, and that is the two girls who were sitting in the middle of a railway line.  Assuming that no trains are coming is like sitting in the middle of a little used road or in the central reservation of a motorway late at night then being surprised when a car comes and runs over you. 

As much as I don't like to assume that things that are "common sense" to me are common sense to everyone else, I think it's reasonable that an intelligent person (and she had 11 good GCSEs according to the story) should not think it a good idea to be in the habit of sitting on a railway line at any time of day.  

[cctransuk]

3 minutes ago, JDW said:

Absolutely crazy.  As much as I can understand the family wanting some kind of closure that isn't blaming their daughter, and as much as I sympathise with the loss of life, there can only be two people to blame here, and that is the two girls who were sitting in the middle of a railway line.  Assuming that no trains are coming is like sitting in the middle of a little used road or in the central reservation of a motorway late at night then being surprised when a car comes and runs over you. 

As much as I don't like to assume that things that are "common sense" to me are common sense to everyone else, I think it's reasonable that an intelligent person (and she had 11 good GCSEs according to the story) should not think it a good idea to be in the habit of sitting on a railway line at any time of day.  

 

One is bound to wonder whether the victim's judgement / reactions had been somehow impaired.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[melmerby]

12 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

One is bound to wonder whether the victim's judgement / reactions had been somehow impaired.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Snips from the report:

 

"They went on to a friend's house and later sat in the park for a short while, also smoking some cannabis."

"But neither girl was high"

"Mr Glyn also confirmed that no drugs traces were detected in post mortem reports on Milena."

 

"The train rushed past out of nowhere going very fast" (actually it was 55mph)

"They had gone to the crossing because it was a good place to hang out"

 

The latter two statements do not suggest someone in full control of their faculties
 

EDIT only one comment posted below the article thought that the railway was at fault!

 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2019 by melmerby

[jim.snowdon]

3 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Just reread the report and it states, that the driver stopped at the first board (120 metres before the crossing), yet by the time he got to the 2nd board (30 metres before), he was travelling too fast to stop. So must have accelerated quite sharply, over the intervening 90 metres.* Plus of course he overshot by at least 35 metres, since he collected the gates.

 

Makes me wonder if he DID actually stop at the first sign.

 

Both signs apply ONLY to unfitted trains. How often does the Festiniog Railway run unfitted trains? Not very often, I suspect. Infrequent enough for drivers to be especially reminded in some way, BEFORE they head off, with such a train?

 

The signs do have something about them that IS confusing. That is that the signs have the words UNFITTED TRAINS STOP, in different places within the rest of the wording. That I believe is poor practice.

 

 

 

* OK, why are metric units used in a report such as this, when the country uses imperial measurements, including most railway speed limits?

This country uses metric units. That the speed limits on railways and roads are still in imperial units is by exception, either due to the impracticalities of changing over, or the public hankering after now obsolete measures.

 

Jim

[SHMD]

This country uses a whole hodge-podge of units both local, colloquial, national and international.

 

The various weights and measures acts have some stipulations (with many exceptions) when selling directly to the public.

 

 

Kev.

 

[melmerby]

5 hours ago, kevinlms said:

* OK, why are metric units used in a report such as this, when the country uses imperial measurements, including most railway speed limits?

 

2 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

This country uses metric units. That the speed limits on railways and roads are still in imperial units is by exception, either due to the impracticalities of changing over, or the public hankering after now obsolete measures.

 

Jim

IIRC some re-measuring for km distances on the the railways has been done.

HS1 and LUL are already metric, as are tramways (those lozenge shape speed signs are km/h)

Edited April 15, 2019 by melmerby

[eastglosmog]

The Irish have recently managed to convert from miles and mph to km and kph on all their roads, without catastrophe, so it is perfectly possible.

[cctransuk]

32 minutes ago, eastglosmog said:

The Irish have recently managed to convert from miles and mph to km and kph on all their roads, without catastrophe, so it is perfectly possible.

 

I don't think that the fear of catastrophe is the problem, but the cost of changing all the signs, etc. !!

 

Did the RoI get a nice juicy EU grant to cover the cost of conversion, perchance?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[eastglosmog]

Have you seen the way some Irish drive? Catastrophe was definitely possible!

Just googled the changeover and it was quite a bit longer ago than I remembered - way back in 2005 (time flies) so would have been in Celtic Tiger economy days.  ROI probably managed to pay for it all itself.

[jim.snowdon]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

 

IIRC some re-measuring for km distances on the the railways has been done.

HS1 and LUL are already metric, as are tramways (those lozenge shape speed signs are km/h)

Network Rail still use miles and chains for to locate a lot of general track related items, partly because there are so many records to change, and partly because the railway is still populated with mile and quarter mile posts. Detailed work on track, as well as signalling design, is all done in metres (quite frequently in millimetres, not for accuracy but to avoid errors due to missed decimal points).

All of the tramways except, I think, Manchester are totally metric because the exemption for miles per hour does not include them.

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

What matters is (a) that the unit used should be widely understood and (b) if not an SI unit, its ratio relative to the relevant SI unit should be known to those who need to know.

 

The current Highway Code for stopping distance uses mixed units: speeds in mph (kph) and distance in metres (feet). I happily model at a scale of 4 mm/ft so am in no position to object!

 

[PhilJ W]

1 hour ago, eastglosmog said:

The Irish have recently managed to convert from miles and mph to km and kph on all their roads, without catastrophe, so it is perfectly possible.

So has Malta, Cyprus (both before joining the EU) Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

 

[Damo666]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

Did the RoI get a nice juicy EU grant to cover the cost of conversion, perchance?

No.

[Damo666]

51 minutes ago, eastglosmog said:

Have you seen the way some Irish drive? Catastrophe was definitely possible!

Just googled the changeover and it was quite a bit longer ago than I remembered - way back in 2005 (time flies) so would have been in Celtic Tiger economy days.  ROI probably managed to pay for it all itself.

The driving Irish are actually quite good, despite the caricature. There has been a huge crack-down on drink-driving in the last 12+ years.

 

However, unfortunately there has been a high proportion of accidents involving visitors from the right-driving EU continent / other continents who have, for whatever reason, forgotten which side to drive on when on lonely roads with little traffic, until...............!

[melmerby]

49 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

 

All of the tramways except, I think, Manchester are totally metric because the exemption for miles per hour does not include them.

 

Jim

Metrolink uses those diamond shape signs, so by inference they are km/h.

(as do Nottingham, Blackpool, Sheffield, West Midlands & Croydon but Edinburgh seems not to have any, so maybe uses normal road speed limits. (on the road sections)

 

[Hobby]

10 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

So has Malta, Cyprus (both before joining the EU) Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

 

 

We may as well do the switch from left to right at the same time... 

 

10 hours ago, Damo666 said:

 who have, for whatever reason, forgotten which side to drive on when on lonely roads with little traffic, until...............!

 

Been there, done that, but the other way round! You just have to keep reminding yourself...

Edited April 16, 2019 by Hobby

[melmerby]

2 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

May as well do the switch from left to right at the same time... 

 

Sweden did that some years ago (September 3rd 1963) as they were the only country on mainland Europe driving on the left.

It helped as they had only been selling LH drive cars for some years before, which in themselves were a cause of accidents when LH driving!

[corneliuslundie]

Surely one uses a right-hand drive car to drive on the left?

I distinctly remember visiting Jersey in my teens and caarefully cycling down the middle of rhe road away from the jetty until I could find a road sign and find out on which side they drove.

jonathan

[John_Hughes]

Canada changed all its measurements from Imperial to Metric over the course of a single weekend back in the 70s, without too many problems. though many visiting Americans who thought that the urban speed limit in Canada was 50mph got a nasty shock when they were stopped by the police for speeding.

[Wickham Green]

12 hours ago, Damo666 said:

The driving Irish are actually quite good, despite the caricature. There has been a huge crack-down on drink-driving in the last 12+ years.

 

However, unfortunately there has been a high proportion of accidents involving visitors from the right-driving EU continent / other continents who have, for whatever reason, forgotten which side to drive on when on lonely roads with little traffic, until...............!

It's quite surprising where you'll find multilingual  'DRIVE ON THE LEFT' signs in Ireland - even the opposite side of the country from any ferry port !