Level crossing stupidity...

[beast66606]

Just now, big jim said:

Anyway, any level crossing news? 

 

To veer it back to LC I will ask a question for the experts out there.

 

On a 100mph double tracked route, how long should an AHB be up, as in after a train passes one way, before starting the sequence (for a train passing the other way) to lower the barriers again ?

[Happy Hippo]

10 minutes ago, big jim said:

Sorry I wasn't having a go at you personally but the last comment was something I heard a lot while he was my trainee!

 

 I don’t work with him any more so I don’t know if he is no longer registered, I suspect not as, as you say it’s been fixed unless of course there are other issues which mean he is still registered, either way disabled or not he was passed to be a driver and is a bloody good one at that

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It depends on the level on whether you are classified as, or registered as, disabled.

 

As an example, I am only classified as being; the being is between 15-19% disabled due to osteoarthritis.

 

I have a small certificate that states this disability, but it allows me absolutely nothing:  No blue badge parking or any other concession.  The only thing it did get me many years ago, was a job interview!

 

 

[melmerby]

SWMBO has a blue badge and it wasn't easy to get

She had two strokes 30 months ago which has left her with permanent right side weakness.

I had to provide two medical reports, one from a physiotherapist, stating that the problem wouldn't improve in the next three years.

It was quite clear during the application process that if she was likely to improve she couldn't have a disabled badge.

[kevinlms]

5 hours ago, grahame said:

 

Good grief. Are really pleased that you got away with parking somewhere where you shouldn't and got someone sacked?

 

Regardless of the parking ticket, I don't understand why anyone was sacked. 

[ejstubbs]

3 hours ago, big jim said:

we stood by the disabled access door (fewer steps to the ring) waiting to go into the circus and the old boy in front who didn’t See my mate hobble in turned to us and proper started  having a go at us both at the top of his voice so everyone could hear that the entrance was for disabled persons only and that we should leave and join the able body queue, I didn’t know what to say but my mate who obviously had to deal with this on a daily basis (as he didn’t physically look disabled when stood still) soon put the bloke back in his place and he couldn’t apologise enough to him afterwards! 

 

And some people seemed to think it appropriate to 'have a go' at a 12 year old girl for using disabled toilets.  But she decided to do something about it to help everyone in a similar situation: Invisible disability campaign makes tracks.

 

Quote

Her sign will hopefully help people not to assume wrong-doing about those using disabled toilets and perhaps it will also be a reminder about the dangers of jumping to conclusions in a broader sense.

 

(From https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/grace-s-sign-provides-a-lesson-for-us-all-leader-comment-1-4907931).

[jcredfer]

31 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Regardless of the parking ticket, I don't understand why anyone was sacked. 

 

Apparently, sufficient complaints about the way he had "performed" in and around his duties and apparent lack of positive response to directives to amend his behaviour.  Last straws and Camel's backs, for that sort of decision to be taken.  It would certainly not have been a single letter.

 

Regards

Julian

[PhilJ W]

3 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Regardless of the parking ticket, I don't understand why anyone was sacked. 

 

3 hours ago, jcredfer said:

 

Apparently, sufficient complaints about the way he had "performed" in and around his duties and apparent lack of positive response to directives to amend his behaviour.  Last straws and Camel's backs, for that sort of decision to be taken.  It would certainly not have been a single letter.

 

Regards

Julian

By doing his job out of hours he would have been in breach of health and safety regulations (not supervised) and almost certainly uninsured. If he had been assaulted by someone, quite possible in the circumstances his employer might be held responsible even if he was 'unofficial'. However I think that gloating over getting someone the sack is completely out of order.

[melmerby]

5 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

 

 I think that gloating over getting someone the sack is completely out of order.

I agree, it's a disgusting attitude to take, especially when in the wrong in the first place.

[The Stationmaster]

On 05/12/2019 at 13:40, beast66606 said:

 

To veer it back to LC I will ask a question for the experts out there.

 

On a 100mph double tracked route, how long should an AHB be up, as in after a train passes one way, before starting the sequence (for a train passing the other way) to lower the barriers again ?

My copy of the relevant Requirements is rather dated so these details might not be current.

 

'The barriers shall rise as soon as possible after a train has cleared the crossing, but if another train approaches the crossing, the barriers shall stay down unless at least 10 seconds could elapse after the barriers have begun to  rise before the operating cycle recommences for the other train.   ...'

 

So, using the  times as they were back then - you will get the 10 seconds before the cycle recommences and then from the time the cycle recommences you get the amber light for c.3 seconds followed by the red lights with the barrier starting to come down c.4 - 8 seconds after the red lights commence.  So 10 + 3 + 4 gives a minimum of c.17 seconds and 10 + 3 + 8 gives a maximum time of c.21 seconds between the time at which the barriers start to rise and the time at which they commence to fall.  I can't find the time allowed for the barriers to rise but they are required to take c.6 -8 seconds to fully come down.

 

BUT N.B. These details are from a 1980s edition of the Level Crossing Requirements and the numbers might have changed a bit subsequently

[4069]

The current guidance/requirements document is at https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/2158/level_crossings_guidance.pdf , and the "second train coming" conditions at an AHB have not changed; see paragraph 2.80. 

 

Stuart J

[beast66606]

Thanks Mike and Stuart.

 

Slightly concerning that I have a video of a crossing with only 5 seconds between the raise and lower, even more scary is the crossing is often used by farm traffic - tractors, combines etc. and is actually a skewed crossing so wider than normaly.

 

I've had my suspicions about it's timing for a long time but last week I finally caught it on video - the only editing was to remove the trains approach and concentrate on the barrier sequence.

 

Edit 08/12/2019 - video deleted as Mike has confirmed all is well.

 

There is a slight complication in that it works - or appears to work - in conjunction with another level crossing which is only a couple of hundred yards behind the camera, but even so the risk of a vehicle getting trapped is high, although presumably it hasn't happened - yet.

 

What do others think ?

Edited December 8, 2019 by beast66606
remove video link

[RJS1977]

I made it 15 seconds from the barriers reaching the upright position to starting to fall again (although the sirens started before that).

 

No risk of any vehicles being "trapped" of course, as it is a half barrier crossing.

[Davexoc]

Just come across this one...... May have appeared before, but how can you rely on a prediction?

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-50688515

[Dunsignalling]

20 hours ago, beast66606 said:

Thanks Mike and Stuart.

 

Slightly concerning that I have a video of a crossing with only 5 seconds between the raise and lower, even more scary is the crossing is often used by farm traffic - tractors, combines etc. and is actually a skewed crossing so wider than normaly.

 

I've had my suspicions about it's timing for a long time but last week I finally caught it on video - the only editing was to remove the trains approach and concentrate on the barrier sequence.

 

 

 

 

There is a slight complication in that it works - or appears to work - in conjunction with another level crossing which is only a couple of hundred yards behind the camera, but even so the risk of a vehicle getting trapped is high, although presumably it hasn't happened - yet.

 

What do others think ?

Drivers of large and/or slow vehicles are instructed to phone for permission to cross, irrespective of the position of the barriers.

 

John

[royaloak]

20 hours ago, beast66606 said:

Thanks Mike and Stuart.

 

Slightly concerning that I have a video of a crossing with only 5 seconds between the raise and lower, even more scary is the crossing is often used by farm traffic - tractors, combines etc. and is actually a skewed crossing so wider than normally.

 

 

There is a slight complication in that it works - or appears to work - in conjunction with another level crossing which is only a couple of hundred yards behind the camera, but even so the risk of a vehicle getting trapped is high, although presumably it hasn't happened - yet.

 

What do others think ?

I make it 13 seconds from the START of the raising to the START of the lowering sequence so the timings are fine.

 

How can a vehicle get trapped? Its a half barrier crossing so they just drive off on their side of the road!

[Colin_McLeod]

20 hours ago, beast66606 said:

Thanks Mike and Stuart.

 

Slightly concerning that I have a video of a crossing with only 5 seconds between the raise and lower, even more scary is the crossing is often used by farm traffic - tractors, combines etc. and is actually a skewed crossing so wider than normaly.

 

I've had my suspicions about it's timing for a long time but last week I finally caught it on video - the only editing was to remove the trains approach and concentrate on the barrier sequence.

 

 

 

 

There is a slight complication in that it works - or appears to work - in conjunction with another level crossing which is only a couple of hundred yards behind the camera, but even so the risk of a vehicle getting trapped is high, although presumably it hasn't happened - yet.

 

What do others think ?

 

I think that sadly, it's this type of misinformation, (in this case the timing and the nonsense about getting trapped) that gives the design and operation of level crossings a bad name.

[Richard E]

21 hours ago, beast66606 said:

Thanks Mike and Stuart.

 

Slightly concerning that I have a video of a crossing with only 5 seconds between the raise and lower, even more scary is the crossing is often used by farm traffic - tractors, combines etc. and is actually a skewed crossing so wider than normaly.

 

I've had my suspicions about it's timing for a long time but last week I finally caught it on video - the only editing was to remove the trains approach and concentrate on the barrier sequence.

 

 

 

 

There is a slight complication in that it works - or appears to work - in conjunction with another level crossing which is only a couple of hundred yards behind the camera, but even so the risk of a vehicle getting trapped is high, although presumably it hasn't happened - yet.

 

What do others think ?

 

Is that Hales Street near Tivetshall St Margaret in Norfolk? It certainly looks like it.

 

If so it is a dead end and I'm struggling to find another level crossing on the same road. Apologies however if I've got the wrong location.

[petethemole]

According to Google Maps the next crossing is on Station Road, which is "behind" the camera location but on the railway, not on Hales Street, which is what I had also assumed until you posted.  https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Hales+St,+Norwich/@52.4444559,1.1733796,1060m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x47d9c201a0a43a2d:0x184b45bc7b84b00f!8m2!3d52.4433086!4d1.1735594

Edited December 7, 2019 by petethemole
typo

[beast66606]

No worries - I asked a question, and got some answers which fit the thread title. Thanks for all those who helped (and read the documents so speak from knowledge not guesswork)

 

Paras 2,80 and Appendix A - https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/2158/level_crossings_guidance.pdf

 

Quote

Barriers should rise as soon as practicable after the train has passed unless another approaching train is so close that a minimum of 10 seconds road open time(see Appendix A) cannot be achieved. In this situation the barriers should remain lowered and the intermittent red lights should continue to flash. The audible warning should change in character after the first of the trains arrives at the crossing.

 

 

Quote

‘Road open time’ is the time after the road traffic light signals have ceased to show and any barriers are clear of the road, before the road traffic light show again for another train.

 

The barriers are only fully up at 9/10 seconds (being generous) and the sequence starts again at 16 seconds - it matters not when the barriers drop as they aren't a requirement as such, the lights are what controls traffic and they start at 16 seconds. Happy to be proved that this is misinformation.

 

PS

The video is only available to people here, unless someone chances on it by complete luck, it's not indexed and not listed - if I really wanted to stir the pot I could make a nice video and make it public - so hardly misinformation.

 

 

[beast66606]

1 hour ago, Richard E said:

 

Is that Hales Street near Tivetshall St Margaret in Norfolk? It certainly looks like it.

 

If so it is a dead end and I'm struggling to find another level crossing on the same road. Apologies however if I've got the wrong location.

 

Indeed - the clue is in the video title

[phil-b259]

22 hours ago, beast66606 said:

Thanks Mike and Stuart.

 

Slightly concerning that I have a video of a crossing with only 5 seconds between the raise and lower, even more scary is the crossing is often used by farm traffic - tractors, combines etc. and is actually a skewed crossing so wider than normaly.

 

 

Which is why AHB crossings have large signs telling drivers of slow vehicles (which includes tractors, etc) to stop and phone the signaller before using the crossing!

 

The signs even go so far as to define what they mean by slow, that is 5mph or less.

 

One would need to check of course, but I would have thought 10 seconds, which is the mandated time between the sequence finishing and restarting - NOT the time between the barriers rising and falling (thats going to be closer to 20 seconds) would be adequate.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, beast66606 said:

No worries - I asked a question, and got some answers which fit the thread title. Thanks for all those who helped (and read the documents so speak from knowledge not guesswork)

 

Paras 2,80 and Appendix A - https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/2158/level_crossings_guidance.pdf

 

 

 

 

The barriers are only fully up at 9/10 seconds (being generous) and the sequence starts again at 16 seconds - it matters not when the barriers drop as they aren't a requirement as such, the lights are what controls traffic and they start at 16 seconds. Happy to be proved that this is misinformation.

 

PS

The video is only available to people here, unless someone chances on it by complete luck, it's not indexed and not listed - if I really wanted to stir the pot I could make a nice video and make it public - so hardly misinformation.

 

 

Technically the 'road open' commences when the red lights cease to show - which should be when the barriers are at 45 degree angle and rising.   The best way to show by film if it is compliant is to get an angle which includes the road traffic signals.  You should then get a minimum of 10 seconds between the time when road traffic is able to cross and the time at which the amber light first  illuminates (i.e. the cycle recommences) because on your video the time at which the cycle recommences can only be approximately arrived at from the time the barriers start to fall (can you run the video backwards?).

 

Judging by the time between the barriers rising past 45 degrees and then subsequently starting to come down on your video the crossing is compliant with the approximated minimum allowed time.  If you time it between teh time the barriers start to rise and the time they start to fall it is well compliant on the basis of my maths summating the permitted tolerances in times.

[beast66606]

23 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

The best way to show by film if it is compliant is to get an angle which includes the road traffic signals.  You should then get a minimum of 10 seconds between the time when road traffic is able to cross and the time at which the amber light first  illuminates (i.e. the cycle recommences) because on your video the time at which the cycle recommences can only be approximately arrived at from the time the barriers start to fall (can you run the video backwards?).

 

Yes and I've waited a loooong time to even be able to catch this event on video just the once - I've seen it a few times which is why I was concerned, it's noticably close (and the opposite sequence (southbound arrives first and then the Northbound) trains hold the barriers and change the tone to "another train coming" which added to my concern.

[royaloak]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Technically the 'road open' commences when the red lights cease to show - which should be when the barriers are at 45 degree angle and rising.   The best way to show by film if it is compliant is to get an angle which includes the road traffic signals.  You should then get a minimum of 10 seconds between the time when road traffic is able to cross and the time at which the amber light first  illuminates (i.e. the cycle recommences) because on your video the time at which the cycle recommences can only be approximately arrived at from the time the barriers start to fall (can you run the video backwards?).

 

Judging by the time between the barriers rising past 45 degrees and then subsequently starting to come down on your video the crossing is compliant with the approximated minimum allowed time.  If you time it between teh time the barriers start to rise and the time they start to fall it is well compliant on the basis of my maths summating the permitted tolerances in times.

Its 12-13 seconds from the lights on the arm going out and the sequence starting again, well within spec despite beast trying to say otherwise.

 

There are several crossing we approach at 90-100mph where we can see the whole sequence happen ahead of us with the barriers fully down about 7 seconds before we arrive at the crossing, quite unnerving to start with but you get used to it, this is so the barriers are down for the minimum amount of time.

Edited December 7, 2019 by royaloak

[royaloak]

 

19 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

 

Yes and I've waited a loooong time to even be able to catch this event on video just the once - I've seen it a few times which is why I was concerned, it's noticably close (and the opposite sequence (southbound arrives first and then the Northbound) trains hold the barriers and change the tone to "another train coming" which added to my concern.

What are you concerned about, several people have told you it is compliant, and why, but keep going on about it!