Level crossing stupidity...

[ejstubbs]

1 hour ago, Colin_McLeod said:

The word "accident" does not mean that it was no one's fault.

 

Actually, it can mean that: definition 5a of "accident" in the OED is an event that is without apparent or deliberate cause.  It's worth noting that that the OED specifically links that definition with the later definition 8a In generalized use: an unfortunate and typically unforeseen event, a disaster, a mishap; (also) unfortunate eventuality. (In early use not always distinguishable from sense 5a.)  Given that the dictionary definition of the word allows the potential for confusion or misunderstanding vis a vis causation, it doesn't seem entirely unreasonable for those whose job it is to deal with this stuff to employ a word better suited to the specific meaning that they intend.

 

Hence also why such events are usually described as "a collision between a car and a train" rather than "a car hit by a train", which latter can be taken to imply the cause of or culpability for the event.  (Although "a collision between a pedestrian and a car" still sounds a bit odd to me.)

[caradoc]

1 hour ago, ianwales said:

 

Sorry Neil, however commendable your post the lack of sympathy from myself and a lot of my colleagues stems from having to deal with these incidents time and time again whether they be Level Crossings or suicides the fact remains persons shouldn't be on the railway line, One driver I recall had a jumper where the head came through the windscreen and was off work for nearly a year because of the incident, the day he came back to work he had another suicide on the same stretch of line, in such circumstances sympathy does dwindle considerably I'm afraid.

 

Ian 

 

I too had to deal with far too many fatalaties during my railway career, thankfully from the safety of an office; I was never a Driver or worked out on the line, so cannot fully understand the trauma caused, and of course those who endured it have my utmost sympathy, whether they be the railway staff, Police Officers or others involved. However it is pefectly reasonable to also have sympathy with the 'victims' of these incidents; Below is a link to an incident which occurred just after my shift had started. The person killed was a 13-year old girl - thirteen years old. How can anyone try to understand what possessed someone so young, with their life ahead of them, to do such a dreadful thing ? And I am sure her family and friends asked themselves then, and probably will forever, what more they could or should have done for her.

 

https://www.scotsman.com/news-2-15012/transport/girl-killed-after-being-hit-by-train-at-whitecraigs-1-3424961

 

 

 

[ianwales]

14 minutes ago, royaloak said:

Why should we?

I have a lot of sympathy for somebody who is at rock bottom, I have zero sympathy if they decide to involve me and possibly several hundred people in taking their way out!

 

As for the rest of your post I agree 100% but it does beg the question where were the family and friends on the run up to 'the end'?

 

I think that those of us on the inside of the industry have a certain lack of sympathy due to having to deal with these incidents time and time again, there was another yesterday although in this instance I understand the person has survived, we are affected by these things. I was talking with the signalman who was on duty at the time our Pway colleagues were killed at Margam some weeks ago, he was the duty man and I took over his duty and we were saying how it affects our job so many weeks later, so you'll excuse my less than sympathetic response to someone who puts themselves in harms way.

 

Ian 

[boxbrownie]

47 minutes ago, royaloak said:

What almost certain accident?

The one near Taunton?

 

If so you are very wrong!

If you would like to discuss the matter with Dave (the train driver involved) I would be more than happy to pass your phone number onto him so he can call you to discuss EXACTLY what was involved!

I understood from the local newspaper report it was a car on or crossing the LC, so are you saying it was a deliberate attempt by the driver to end his/her life?

 

And please don’t be clever and try to suggest I talk to the train driver, I have been in a cab of a 125 during an incident, I know the trauma involved, my Uncle was top link at the + and he dealt with many incidents and was the ASLEF rep so personally helped many through such trauma before any “official” treatment was available.

 

My deepest sympathy is with “Dave” and hope this doesn’t impact his career or thoughts for too long.

[royaloak]

The papers are partly right.

[Sprintex]

49 minutes ago, royaloak said:

I have a lot of sympathy for somebody who is at rock bottom, I have zero sympathy if they decide to involve me and possibly several hundred people in taking their way out!

 

As for the rest of your post I agree 100% but it does beg the question where were the family and friends on the run up to 'the end'?

 

Your error of judgment is in the phrase "if they decide to involve me and possibly several hundred people in taking their way out!"

 

Do you seriously think this is a conscious decision? Do you have any idea of the sheer despair necessary to even contemplate engineering your own exit from life?

 

I have. I've been there, twice. And yes, I've sat on a station seat for well over two hours telling myself I'll jump in front of the next non-stopper. That is ALL you can think about. The easy way out. Not what family or friends will do after. Not the mess that will result. And certainly not other people you don't even know like the train driver or those that have to clear up what's left. ALL that you can think about is whatever is causing you such consuming distress, and how it will all end when you "do the deed". 

 

Where are the family and friends? Kept in the dark same as everyone else, that's where, because when you're that depressed you keep it hidden from everyone however close they are. Self preservation.

 

Yes I feel for drivers and railway workers that get traumatised by "jumpers", they only went to work same as normal and don't deserve this. I've posted elsewhere that I was unfortunate enough to kill a pedestrian that unbeknown to me stood in front of my HGV out of sight in poor visibility, so I can see this from both sides.  It is hard dealing with the fact you've ended a life, be it accidental or otherwise on their part. But equally it takes someone with literally no hope in life to jump, and I can't not feel for someone in that situation.

 

If you've never been to a place that dark and hopeless, then good luck to you. 

 

Paul

Edited December 29, 2019 by Sprintex

[royaloak]

Just now, Sprintex said:

 

Your error of judgment is in the phrase "if they decide to involve me and possibly several hundred people in taking their way out!"

 

Do you seriously think this is a conscious decision? Do you have any idea of the sheer despair necessary to even contemplate engineering your own exit from life?

 

I have. I've been there, twice. And yes, I've sat on a station seat for well over two hours telling myself I'll jump in front of the next non-stopper. That is ALL you can think about. The easy way out. Not what family or friends will do after. Not the mess that will result. And certainly not other people you don't even know like the train driver or those that have to clear up what's left. ALL that you can think about is whatever is causing you such consuming distress, and how it will all end when you "do the deed". 

 

Where are the family and friends? Kept in the dark same as everyone else, that's where, because when you're that depressed you keep it hidden from everyone however close they are. Self preservation.

 

Yes I feel for drivers and railway workers that get traumatised by "jumpers", they only went to work same as normal and don't deserve this. I've posted elsewhere that I was unfortunate enough to kill a pedestrian that unbeknown to me stood in front of my HGV out of sight in poor visibility, so I can see this from both sides.  But equally it takes someone with literally no hope in life to jump, and I can't not feel for someone in that situation.

 

If you've never been to a place that dark and hopeless, then good luck to you. 

 

Paul

Thank you for telling me how I should think!

 

Isnt it strange how they can bottle it all up so absolutely nobody notices but are more than happy to share the end result with several hundred people!

 

Oh and for information I have been there but I did the park the car in a secluded spot and put a pipe from the exhaust to the cabin method, good old fashioned leaded petrol as well, but just as the gases were taking effect I took one last look at a picture of my kids and decided the bitch wasnt going to win, from that point I changed my whole outlook on life, and trying not to upset the snowflakes, the perma-offended or people who think they know everything about everything because they read it in a book doesnt get a look in! The headache lasted for five days!

[Mark Saunders]

1 hour ago, royaloak said:

Would that be Surbiton by any chance, it did take a while didnt it!

 

This was Relly Mill about ten years ago !

 

 

[Sprintex]

4 minutes ago, royaloak said:

Isnt it strange how they can bottle it all up so absolutely nobody notices but are more than happy to share the end result with several hundred people!

 

Oh dear, how churlish.

 

It was over twenty years ago, so yes I can talk about it now, and if it influences just one person to seek help before getting to that point then it's worth it. 

 

Having been there yourself then surely you appreciate that how you go out isn't a rational decision made through weighing up the pros and cons, just what comes to mind as the quickest and easiest?

 

Paul

[The Stationmaster]

49 minutes ago, royaloak said:

Why should we?

I have a lot of sympathy for somebody who is at rock bottom, I have zero sympathy if they decide to involve me and possibly several hundred people in taking their way out!

 

As for the rest of your post I agree 100% but it does beg the question where were the family and friends on the run up to 'the end'?

I think just about everybody who has experienced this as a Driver or has been out afterwards with the black plastic sacks will find it extremely difficult to be sympathetic after the first one they're involved in.  When that one becomes several and people's lives and livelihoods are threatened by the consequences of such incidents (and yes - that has happened and will probably continue to happen for as long as people decide to use a railway train to end their life) it becomes extremely difficult to evoke any sort of sympathy.  

 

I wholly understand that people who do try to end their life in that way are behaving in a manner which would be seen by many as irrational.  I can equally understand that they can see no other way out but to end their life but I remain of the view that it is selfish to do so in a manner which can harm or involve others although obviously their mental state would not normally even although them to think about or consider that - they become extremely single minded.  Clearly one can - in the wider sense of the word - pity them for having to end their life, whatever the cause and occasionally the background story can evoke real and deep sympathy with their situation and I am fully aware of one appalling example of that when the suicide was that of a 15 year old boy and neither of his parents bothered to attend his funeral.

 

But chucking bits of what was not long previously a sentient human being into a black plastic sack can in almost every case cause one to have a very different attitude to such events than merely 'talking about it'.  Similarly having to deal with a friend or colleague whose life could well be ruined by witnessing such an event let alone being the one who drove the train which caused the death is not an experience most people would wish to repeat especially when often all they can say is there but for the grace of God go I.  Even being on the fringes without direct involvement - as in the case of the Signalman mentioned above by Ian Wales - can sometimes have serious metal effects.  when your sympathy and actions are being wholly and quite properly absorbed by trying to help those of your mates and staff who have been affected you won't have much sympathy to spare for those whose actions led to such a situation. 

[ianwales]

Well put Mike, I was just on the fringes of the Margam incident, but, although a life long railway enthusiast and a signalman of 40 years I don't enjoy going to work any longer dreading the next incident.

 

Ian

[royaloak]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 I can equally understand that they can see no other way out but to end their life but I remain of the view that it is selfish to do so in a manner which can harm or involve others although obviously their mental state would not normally even although them to think about or consider that - they become extremely single minded.  

And yet I dont simply because, as you state, they are not thinking straight and are using the train as a means to an end, they probably dont even realise there are people they will affect, simply that 'the train' will do the job quickly and effectively. I suppose you could call the act selfish, but the individual is not being selfish!

 

I also think the signalmen go through just as much as the driver does because they pretty much know what the driver is going through but they NEED to deal with the incident itself getting all the relevant information so they can get the Emergency Services and everyone else to the sight as quickly as possible, unfortunately they are then expected to go straight back into work mode which I think is wrong, very wrong.

 

Also bear in mind the people having to pick up the bits (rarely is the body anywhere near complete) and having observed a blokes brain sat on top of the front bogie and gone back to check the rest of the body it isnt very nice, the Police were then tasked with picking the bits off the underside of the train, I couldnt watch that bit and took myself off to the other side of the cab and looked out the door while the train was cleared.

 

Ludovic Kennedy summed it up perfectly when he was describing chasing down the Bismark during the second world war, and it was only when the ship stopped and people were seen jumping from the sinking ship that he even thought about the people on board, until that point they were simply attacking a warship.

Edited December 29, 2019 by royaloak

[Dunsignalling]

8 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

I understood from the local newspaper report it was a car on or crossing the LC, so are you saying it was a deliberate attempt by the driver to end his/her life?

 

 

 

The police press release stated they were satisfied that "there were no suspicious circumstances".

 

Make of that what you will, but it implies to me that they have been made aware of the exact circumstances without further investigation.

 

John

Edited December 29, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[royaloak]

10 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

The police press release stated they were satisfied that "there were no suspicious circumstances".

 

Make of that what you will, but it implies to me that they have been made aware of the exact circumstances without further investigation.

 

John

IETs have excellent forward facing cameras even when its pitch black.

Then of course there is the train drivers statement.

[Mark Saunders]

A bridge bash just to deviate a bit!

 

https://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/the-digger-blog/view/total-carnage-as-deere-hits-a-railway-bridge

 

Mark Saunders

 

[Wickham Green]

There's a separate thread for bashing bridges ........... I know, it was pointed out when I put one on here !

[TheQ]

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/greater-anglia-near-miss-at-level-crossing-video-1-6449119

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, TheQ said:

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/greater-anglia-near-miss-at-level-crossing-video-1-6449119

Ooops 

[meil]

On 29/12/2019 at 11:03, Colin_McLeod said:

 

With respect I disagree with your retired policeman friend. They may be caused by someone and still be an accident.  The word "accident" does not mean that it was no one's fault. It means that it was not on purpose.

 

That's the difference between manslaughter and murder.

Not quite. For Manslaughter there still has to be an intention to cause harm or to be so reckless as to not care if harm was done. Murder is the intention to kill or cause serious harm.

[PhilJ W]

4 hours ago, TheQ said:

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/greater-anglia-near-miss-at-level-crossing-video-1-6449119

Looks as if there was a fault with the crossing. The lights could be seen to go green for about a second and then went back to flashing red.

[beast66606]

13 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

Looks as if there was a fault with the crossing. The lights could be seen to go green for about a second and then went back to flashing red.

 

Fault with detection of the train - we've covered this before.

[Colin_McLeod]

1 hour ago, meil said:

Not quite. For Manslaughter there still has to be an intention to cause harm or to be so reckless as to not care if harm was done. Murder is the intention to kill or cause serious harm.

 

Analogies are not always perfect, but you know what I mean.

[96701]

34 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

Looks as if there was a fault with the crossing. The lights could be seen to go green for about a second and then went back to flashing red.

There is no green on level crossing warning, only amber and flashing red. I'm assuming that the barriers having lifted, the sequence restarted with the amber illuminating.

[melmerby]

Has this been up before?

A "Just Couldn't Wait" from Deshler OH:

 

 

[lmsforever]

Hope he was in court for that  seen some crazy things on this thread but this.