Level crossing stupidity...

[corneliuslundie]

Is there any requirement for drivers in the UK to speak any English?

Jonathan

[boxbrownie]

41 minutes ago, corneliuslundie said:

Is there any requirement for drivers in the UK to speak any English?

Jonathan

Well apart from the fact that the tester will talk to the applicant in English during the test I don’t believe so.

[Hobby]

I suspect he was meaning all drivers, not just ones with a UK licence. To which the answer is No, otherwise, on the flip side I wouldn't have been able to drive in Germany, Poland, Czech and Slovak Republics, Italy or The Netherlands over the years... Not to mention that if they are driving a farm vehicle on private land I don't believe that they need a licence? 

[Dunsignalling]

7 hours ago, Hobby said:

But surely safety is all about a continuous learning curve where safety procedures develops over time, that's the way Railway Safety has developed anyhow. Decades ago East European workers were unheard of in the UK so our safety procedures were based around that premise, things have changed and such changes should be reflected in our future thinking.

 

It's clear that I'm on my own on this, I thought that at least NR would be considering such developments but it would seem not and as you are both coming across as defensive rather than taking it as a possible learning point (which is the way I intended it) and perhaps feeding back into the system, I shall bow out gracefully!

The responsibility/liability should lie with the employer of any non-speaker of English in a position which is likely to require safety-critical communication. Any farmer engaging a tractor driver to work on his land should be well aware of any user-worked crossing his employees will encounter and ensure such circumstances don't arise.

 

John

Edited April 28, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[96701]

This is the guidance from the Regulator. non-conformance or divergence from these is at the peril of the operator.

 

https://www.orr.gov.uk/media/10713

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, caradoc said:

 

If the person attempting use the LC does not even understand the English word 'no', they cannot communicate with the Signaller at all - ie to state where they are, what they are crossing with, how long they need, and to confirm when they are clear ?

It's possible that they'll understand a bit of English but subconciously misinterpret a "no", particularly if they're not fluent.

[Michael Hodgson]

I worked with a Welsh speaker.  He always used to say of English that he was very proud of his ability to speak a foreign language. 

 

Whilst many of the Welsh prefer their own language, I've never yet come across a Welshman who can't speak English at least competently, though some may have such a heavy accent that their English can be difficult to understand and a few in North Wales choose to be unhelpful to English tourists.  As Welsh is compulsory in the schools in Wales, we may in time time see monoglot Welsh again, but it would be very limiting not to have English if you want a job outside Wales or want to travel overseas - most of the EU use English to overcome their language differences.  The only other country you might encounter the Welsh language is, of all places, Paraguay!

 

When I had to register my father's death in Monmouthshire, the Registrar told me that she was required to answer the phone in both Welsh (which she didn't speak, but of course could parrot "Bore da..") and English  And her employers were not allowed to discriminate against her on the grounds inability to speak Welsh.  If a caller continued in Welsh (as they were statutorily entitled to do) she was required to apologise and transfer the call to a colleague who did have the language.  This of course is likely to mean a delay, so in practice it's only the most fervent nationalists who don't take advantage of their fluency in the Queen's English.

 

 

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

Is there any requirement for drivers in the UK to speak any English?

Jonathan

 

No - however most hazard / prohibited road signage uses internationally agreed pictograms so logically a lack of English language skills shouldn't be a problem.

 

However there are signs like like those at automatic half barrier crossings defining what 'slow vehicles' are, etc. which are only in English and do present a risk with respect to drivers who cannot read English.

 

You also get "Unsuitable for HGVs" signs or "avoiding low bridge" wording which are simply words and as such do present an issue if the drive cannot understand English and get themselves stuck!

[Colin_McLeod]

1 hour ago, caradoc said:

 

If the person attempting use the LC does not even understand the English word 'no', they cannot communicate with the Signaller at all - ie to state where they are, what they are crossing with, how long they need, and to confirm when they are clear ? 

 

 

 

 

 

55 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

The responsibility/liability should lie with the employer of any non-speaker of English in a position which is likely to require safety-critical communication. Any farmer engaging a tractor driver to work on his land should be well aware of any user-worked crossing his employees will encounter and ensure such circumstances don't arise.

 

John

 

I don't disagree with either of these posts, but they are both about apportioning legal responsibility (i.e. blame) rather than accident prevention.

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

Is there any requirement for drivers in the UK to speak any English?

Jonathan

Not as such, but there is a requirement to obey the rules and this can involve understanding signs in English. The Govt advice for driving abroad is to look up the differences in rules and how to deal with them. There is no exemption from obeying a sign because you don’t understand the words or pictogram on it. 
 

 

Most guides to driving abroad suggest carrying a phrasebook, app or dictionary to translate signs. 
We have one lady who lives next to a crossing who has helped people cross when asked but we have also had to ring the company on the other side to get them to confirm the crossing is clear when delivery drivers of all nationalities don’t call in clear or are incomprehensible. 
 

 

[cctransuk]

7 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

No - however most hazard / prohibited road signage uses internationally agreed pictograms so logically a lack of English language skills shouldn't be a problem.

 

However there are signs like like those at automatic half barrier crossings defining what 'slow vehicles' are, etc. which are only in English and do present a risk with respect to drivers who cannot read English.

 

You also get "Unsuitable for HGVs" signs or "avoiding low bridge" wording which are simply words and as such do present an issue if the drive cannot understand English and get themselves stuck!

 

Somehow, I can't imagine our French / German / Spanish / ........ neighbours getting worked-up about whether we UK drivers could understand their LC signs!

 

John Isherwood.

[jcredfer]

55 minutes ago, Hobby said:

I suspect he was meaning all drivers, not just ones with a UK licence. To which the answer is No, otherwise, on the flip side I wouldn't have been able to drive in Germany, Poland, Czech and Slovak Republics, Italy or The Netherlands over the years... Not to mention that if they are driving a farm vehicle on private land I don't believe that they need a licence? 

 

There is no requirement for a driver in UK, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Belgium or Holland, to speak the language.  To "DRIVE", the requirement is to have read and understood their Road Rules and signs.....  and comply with them.  Any infringement of those regulations will result in the application of their appropriate punishment - your problem.  Any driver in any of these countries [and presumably most others] does so with the responsibility to comply with their road regulations, or face the consequences.  Speaking / reading their language is a total irrelevance and simply clouds a simple issue - your responsibility to understand how to drive on their roads in compliance with their rules.

 

 

[phil-b259]

12 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Somehow, I can't imagine our French / German / Spanish / ........ neighbours getting worked-up about whether we UK drivers could understand their LC signs!

 

John Isherwood.

 

The French / Germans / Spanish don't see the need to have such things in their own languages anyway.!

 

Approaching a typical French half barrier crossing all you get is the 'Signal Automaique' plate below the internationally used warning triangle. No mention of what to do if you are herding animals or driving a slow moving vehicle even though the laws of physics are the same....

Edited April 29, 2021 by phil-b259

[Colin_McLeod]

1 minute ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The French / Germans / Spanish see the need to have such things in their own languages anyway.!

 

Approaching a typical French half barrier crossing all you get is the 'Signal Automaique' plate below the internationally used warning triangle. No mention of what to do if you are herding animals or driving a slow moving vehicle even though the laws of physics are the same....

 

Perhaps that is because such users are expected to use common sense.  

 

Tin hat on and ducking for cover 

 

[phil-b259]

11 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

 

I don't disagree with either of these posts, but they are both about apportioning legal responsibility (i.e. blame) rather than accident prevention.

 

A reflection on the times we live in.

 

Not only "where there is blame there is a (financial) claim" the statement "where there is blame there is someone prosecute / discipline / sack" also seems to be a recurring theme by regulators....

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The French / Germans / Spanish see the need to have such things in their own languages anyway.!

 

Approaching a typical French half barrier crossing all you get is the 'Signal Automaique' plate below the internationally used warning triangle. No mention of what to do if you are herding animals or driving a slow moving vehicle even though the laws of physics are the same....

 

Are there large piles of crushed slow-moving vehicles and deceased domestic animals at European LCs?

 

John Isherwood.

[phil-b259]

3 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Perhaps that is because such users are expected to use common sense.  

 

Tin hat on and ducking for cover 

 

 

Ahh but English law has (or more precisely Lawyers have have successfully) abolished such a thing on these shores.

 

And thats before you get to our gold plaiting civil service which must ensure every eventuality is covered (as long as its in English of course none of this foreign muck you understand)

 

 

Edited April 28, 2021 by phil-b259

[cctransuk]

2 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Perhaps that is because such users are expected to use common sense.  

 

Tin hat on and ducking for cover 

 

 

I think that you'll find that we left common sense behind when we left the EU.

 

John Isherwood.

[phil-b259]

1 minute ago, cctransuk said:

 

I think that you'll find that we left common sense behind when we left the EU.

 

John Isherwood.

 

Besides if we allow 'common sense' think of all the unemployed Lawyers, ambulance chasers and consultants who would cease to be employed. Can't have that now can we - particularly as at least half the inhabitants of the Palace of Westminster trained in the legal profession....

[PaulRhB]

3 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

 

I don't disagree with either of these posts, but they are both about apportioning legal responsibility (i.e. blame) rather than accident prevention.

No the signs are there to do that as it is the simplest way to achieve it at a reasonable cost for the majority of users. Why should any UK firm bear the burden of dealing with information for every single nationality in translating and training staff for something that may never happen? The logical common sense approach is to require someone driving in a foreign country to make sure they are prepared to deal with driving there, understanding the rules, signs and communicating. Should it be the responsibility of the French to put free stickers on your headlights when you roll off a ferry so you don’t blind their drivers?

Prevention is equally about us preparing for an unusual trip and just because we drive on the left seems obvious it is no different to preparing to read signs. You learning some of one language is far more realistic than expecting Signallers to know what no is in 50+ languages. Signallers are employed for their regulating and safety skills not primarily language skills. I’ve visited several European countries and made the effort to communicate in their language with a few numbers and basic phrases so I can ask yes / no questions. I’ve also dealt with foreign drivers who have made the same effort here, the language may have been basic but it worked. 
The prevention part has also involved recognising a lack of communication and dealing with it within our rules. I didn’t try to take details to fine them, it would be pointless, I just ensured the train checked the crossing was clear and gates safely closed. 
That is prevention and it doesn’t need complicated training or expensive to develop and maintain equipment that adds to our busy workload. The current system is safe if applied well on both sides. We’ve made suggestions on crossing safety and put extra safeguards in the box instructions on particular high risk crossings. 
Signage is mandated by the ORR, NR is responsible for making sure it is there and visible and it’s checked after every single incident however minor. 

[caradoc]

15 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

Are there large piles of crushed slow-moving vehicles and deceased domestic animals at European LCs?

 

Yes, quite possibly; As the table in the link below shows, the UK (in 2010) had the best LC safety record of any EU country. So common sense doesn't seem to have done them much good. 

 

https://www.ilcad.org/IMG/pdf/era_leaflet_web_version.pdf

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

43 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

 

I don't disagree with either of these posts, but they are both about apportioning legal responsibility (i.e. blame) rather than accident prevention.

That seems, in practical terms, rather to be putting the cart before the horse. Blame can only be apportioned if responsibilities have not been fulfilled.

 

The only certain way to ensure safety is to assign responsibility (both legal and moral) to the entity in the best position to apply it. In this instance, that means the farmer. Who else is in a better position to do so?

 

He/she selects those who will use the crossing and, as with all employers, it falls to him/her to ensure that those working in the business are competent to carry out their duties without endangering others. 

 

In the case of user-worked crossings, that must include picking employees who possess the language skills necessary to communicate adequately with the signaller.

 

John

Edited April 28, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[96701]

More required reading for the armchair lawyers and those who think that common sense is the be all and end all.

 

RAIB recommendations.

[Dunsignalling]

22 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Besides if we allow 'common sense' think of all the unemployed Lawyers, ambulance chasers and consultants who would cease to be employed. Can't have that now can we - particularly as at least half the inhabitants of the Palace of Westminster trained in the legal profession....

Lawyers, or failed lawyers? 

 

Either way, the drafting of much legislation seems to leave enough loopholes to drive a fleet of buses through.

 

Then again, maybe they are ensuring themselves of a fat living after politics.....

 

John 

[Dunsignalling]

33 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I think that you'll find that we left common sense behind when we left the EU.

 

John Isherwood.

Or when we joined it?

 

John