Level crossing stupidity...

[jcredfer]

27 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I think that you'll find that we left common sense behind when we left the EU.

 

John Isherwood.

 

We did indeed.....   but it seems that they haven't got the first clue about how to use it!

 

I have the advantage to say that...  with both Covid jabs actually being obtained for us, then organised to be delivered, locations and people organised to inject it.....  I also feel very sorry for all the EU nations who are victims to their EU management, who spend so much time complaining about the results of their own incompetent vaccine ordering abilities, that they can't even deliver {even the apparently inadequate numbers} they did manage to order.

 

Julian

 

[PaulRhB]

3 hours ago, Hobby said:

Paul, as I've said a few times the example I gave was simply to point out that society changes over time and that institutions such as the railways need to constantly review their procedures to ensure that they still meet the requirements such as keeping the railway safe for all. 

 

Unfortunately some of you took the example far too literally as you have just done rather the the wider issue it was highlighting. 

 

We on board have had to change our approaches to our passengers a lot over the years to cover a changing society as well as legislation, but the people who interact with the railways aren't just passengers. 

Yes as do NR and the ORR but the variety of responses it generated about sophisticated training or technical solutions aren’t realistic due to cost to develop and maintain in training and equipment. It has to be taken literally because it’s one of our biggest safety risks due to the frequency of crossing calls. We have three crossing books because our area covers large rural areas with farms, a quarry, stables, a light airfield and domestic users crossing regularly and I don’t think many realise how many calls we deal with on top of the railway calls. 
I’ve seen two sets of signs go in the bin in the last twenty years as the wording was changed following incidents and latest developments of society and how they interact with them.

Going back to your original post about possible confused words the point is still where do we stop?  Is there a phrase that contains no words that sound like other words in another language but that remains simple and clear to an illiterate farm worker with a big tractor running in the background? 
 

The ORR leads this and mandates the requirements we follow and 99+% of users deal with it. It’s that fraction of a percent that cause an issue even if the Signaller gets it perfect. If you believe it should be considered then I urge you to contact the ORR with your concern. 
 

Until then I will continue to use this from the rulebook which has worked extremely well so far. 

[phil-b259]

1 minute ago, jcredfer said:

 

We did indeed.....   but it seems that they haven't got the first clue about how to use it!

 

I have the advantage to say that...  with both Covid jabs actually being obtained for us, then organised to be delivered, locations and people organised to inject it.....  I also feel very sorry for all the EU nations who are victims to their EU management, who spend so much time complaining about the results of their own incompetent vaccine ordering abilities, that they can't even deliver {even the apparently inadequate numbers} they did manage to order.

 

Julian

 

 

Which has sod all to do with level crossings.

 

10 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Or when we joined it?

 

John

 

Can we please avoid getting sidetracked into debates about the EU / Brexit please.

 

Its a fact that the UK civil service loves to 'gold plate' legislation (be it domestic or EU inspired) so the lack of 'common sense' has precious little to do with us joining or leaving the EU.

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, caradoc said:

 

Yes, quite possibly; As the table in the link below shows, the UK (in 2010) had the best LC safety record of any EU country. So common sense doesn't seem to have done them much good. 

 

https://www.ilcad.org/IMG/pdf/era_leaflet_web_version.pdf

 

 

 

Statistics!

 

Have you looked at the vertical axis?

 

Life is risky!

 

John Isherwood.

[cctransuk]

43 minutes ago, jcredfer said:

 

We did indeed.....   but it seems that they haven't got the first clue about how to use it!

 

I have the advantage to say that...  with both Covid jabs actually being obtained for us, then organised to be delivered, locations and people organised to inject it.....  I also feel very sorry for all the EU nations who are victims to their EU management, who spend so much time complaining about the results of their own incompetent vaccine ordering abilities, that they can't even deliver {even the apparently inadequate numbers} they did manage to order.

 

Julian

 

 

I don't disagree with that - I am no apologist for the EU!

 

I just feel that Europe has much more pragmatic approach to risk - if you act like an idiot, you'll probably die like one!

 

I can understand those 'at the front line' being keen to avoid the traumatic aftermath of foolish behaviour, but you can't regulate away human stupidity.

 

John Isherwood.

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I worked with a Welsh speaker.  He always used to say of English that he was very proud of his ability to speak a foreign language. 

 

Whilst many of the Welsh prefer their own language, I've never yet come across a Welshman who can't speak English at least competently, though some may have such a heavy accent that their English can be difficult to understand and a few in North Wales choose to be unhelpful to English tourists.  As Welsh is compulsory in the schools in Wales, we may in time time see monoglot Welsh again, but it would be very limiting not to have English if you want a job outside Wales or want to travel overseas - most of the EU use English to overcome their language differences.  The only other country you might encounter the Welsh language is, of all places, Paraguay!

 

When I had to register my father's death in Monmouthshire, the Registrar told me that she was required to answer the phone in both Welsh (which she didn't speak, but of course could parrot "Bore da..") and English  And her employers were not allowed to discriminate against her on the grounds inability to speak Welsh.  If a caller continued in Welsh (as they were statutorily entitled to do) she was required to apologise and transfer the call to a colleague who did have the language.  This of course is likely to mean a delay, so in practice it's only the most fervent nationalists who don't take advantage of their fluency in the Queen's English.

 

 

Not Paraguay (that's probably German), but Patagonia, where a Welsh settlement exists.

 

[Andy Hayter]

Well reading through some of the arguments about foreign language posting on road signs, I rather wonder why someone has not commented that the signs are not in Braille.  After all you never know when a blind driver is going to need to cross the railway.

[cctransuk]

Just now, Andy Hayter said:

Well reading through some of the arguments about foreign language posting on road signs, I rather wonder why someone has not commented that the signs are not in Braille.  After all you never know when a blind driver is going to need to cross the railway.

 

...... or, more realistically, a deaf driver needs to contact the signaller.

 

Life is inconvenient without common sense!

 

John Isherwood.

[jcredfer]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Which has sod all to do with level crossings.

 

 

Can we please avoid getting sidetracked into debates about the EU / Brexit please.

 

Its a fact that the UK civil service loves to 'gold plate' legislation (be it domestic or EU inspired) so the lack of 'common sense' has precious little to do with us joining or leaving the EU.

 

Agreed...  but you applied your comment to the reply I made, rather than to the comment which caused my response.

 

 

[roythebus1]

Of course from what I've been told in European and other countries, the blame culture is firmly on the shoulders of the person who causes the incident. So the vehicle driver crossing the railway when he shouldn't is to name for it regardless of actual blame.

 

As on EU roads, you hit a cyclist or pedestrian with your car it is your fault regardless. Everyone there has to take the blame for their own actions or inactions and a duty of care to others.

 

[Reorte]

3 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

Well reading through some of the arguments about foreign language posting on road signs, I rather wonder why someone has not commented that the signs are not in Braille.  After all you never know when a blind driver is going to need to cross the railway.

Well at least they're already in sign language, by definition!

[kevinlms]

4 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

Well reading through some of the arguments about foreign language posting on road signs, I rather wonder why someone has not commented that the signs are not in Braille.  After all you never know when a blind driver is going to need to cross the railway.

What about a blind translator for a driver that knows no English?

[stewartingram]

11 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

That seems, in practical terms, rather to be putting the cart before the horse. Blame can only be apportioned if responsibilities have not been fulfilled.

 

The only certain way to ensure safety is to assign responsibility (both legal and moral) to the entity in the best position to apply it. In this instance, that means the farmer. Who else is in a better position to do so?

 

He/she selects those who will use the crossing and, as with all employers, it falls to him/her to ensure that those working in the business are competent to carry out their duties without endangering others. 

 

In the case of user-worked crossings, that must include picking employees who possess the language skills necessary to communicate adequately with the signaller.

 

John

Now retired, but when I was working, we were regurlaly informed that a 'manager' of people was responsible for the H&S of his staff. For instance, working a machine; If there was a blade on that machine, it had to be protected - the manager's responsibility, along with ensuring the worker was trained to use it properly. However if the worker decided to leave the guard off, and got injured, then he couldn't blame the management. A direct parallel to the farmer (manager)/LC (machine)/signs (guard)/ driver authorised to use the LC (worker).

 

Stewart

[eastglosmog]

10 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

Well reading through some of the arguments about foreign language posting on road signs, I rather wonder why someone has not commented that the signs are not in Braille.  After all you never know when a blind driver is going to need to cross the railway.

Legitimate users required to phone the signaler are not just drivers; they could include blind farmers or shepherds needing to cross with their sheep/cows/horses, so instructions definitely should be in braille.

[PhilJ W]

44 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

Now retired, but when I was working, we were regurlaly informed that a 'manager' of people was responsible for the H&S of his staff. For instance, working a machine; If there was a blade on that machine, it had to be protected - the manager's responsibility, along with ensuring the worker was trained to use it properly. However if the worker decided to leave the guard off, and got injured, then he couldn't blame the management. A direct parallel to the farmer (manager)/LC (machine)/signs (guard)/ driver authorised to use the LC (worker).

 

Stewart

Under the current H&S legislation more of the onus for safety  has been placed on the employer. However on a level crossing it is the responsibility of the operator who in this case has complied with their statutory obligations with regard to H&S.  

[corneliuslundie]

To bring the discussion back on course, I have looked again at those Craven Arms signs. They are clear and concise. They tell the road user clearly to stop and to telephone the signalman. But I am sure I have seen much longer and rambling notices previously. Are the Craven Arms signs to the current standard and other signs have not caught up, or are they an oddity? Several people have stated that the mandatory signs do not clearly instruct the road user to telephone the signal box.

On a slightly different tack, but still relevant, it worries me when people who are signalmen talk about having dozens of crossing to look after. I assume that those who dream up the modern high-tech centralised signalling systems have no clue about the workload they are creating.

Jonathan 

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

I assume that those who dream up the modern high-tech centralised signalling systems have no clue about the workload they are creating.

Some larger boxes have dedicated crossing desks purely for that where appropriate. We are double manned on the day shifts because of the higher workload they create. 
As with much of this there are historically safe and reliable systems in use and they are reviewed after every incident to see if even more can be learnt. I can also assure you that if we perceive an issue with something we work damn hard to raise it to the appropriate people and sort it. 
When OD crossings were being installed on our patch they didn’t have a great public perception on here. During the project I ended up at a meeting with the guy who led the development project and he offered extra training as we identified it was lacking in the scheme. Four of us, two Signallers and two Mobile Ops Mgrs, who were also qualified level crossing attendants had a full days training on the system, problems and solutions. He had us onside within the first hour and we got to try out lying on the test crossing to see exactly what the radar and lidar saw too. We were then responsible for training locally and between Dave and myself we created a single sheet fault guide to make it easy to identify faults fast under stress. 
The support post installation was equally as good and we would welcome replacing the other five AHB’s on our patch with them. We are happy because they also allow a remote reset that means power blips during storms etc can usually be reset without sending staff out in stormy conditions unnecessarily and let them concentrate on more serious incidents. 
 

We had an ORR inspector in to evaluate the installation a year later and our feedback was they have reduced crossing misuse significantly. 
 

2 hours ago, eastglosmog said:

needing to cross with their sheep/cows/horses, so instructions definitely should be in braille.

How does a blind farmer keep track of his cows or sheep? I have a friend who is a dairy herd manager and it’s a tough physical job and you certainly wouldn’t want to be amongst cows on your own if you were blind as you’d get trampled. 
Blind people know that a phone is provided in the same position relative to the gate at public crossings and all they need to do is tell you they are blind and we provide full protection as we do for large vehicles and livestock. They know they need to ring every time so there is no point providing the full signage in Braille. If they come across a private crossing for some reason it should be locked by the user and treated as a no entry to private land when they find the padlock. It’s a simple and safe system. 

Edited April 29, 2021 by PaulRhB

[melmerby]

Are these foreign delivery drivers that cannot read signs or converse in English at level crossings also unaware what normal road signs in English say?

 

I know the major signage is mostly universal but what about some of the other instructions you get on signs?

You are supposed to be familiar with these to be able to obtain a licence and drive in this country.

 

What about if a police officer stops you and asks you something? "Me no understandy"

[cctransuk]

3 minutes ago, melmerby said:

What about if a police officer stops you and asks you something? "Me no understandy"

 

Don't you watch 'Police Interceptors', or any of the other myriad of police 'fly-on-the wall' TV series?

 

In many parts of the UK, the standard response to a police stop is "Me no understandy" or, even more commonly, a blank look in the hope that the offence will be overlooked - it never is !!

 

John Isherwood.

[Michael Hodgson]

14 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Not Paraguay (that's probably German), but Patagonia, where a Welsh settlement exists.

 

Sorry, that's quite right.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, PaulRhB said:

Blind people know that a phone is provided in the same position relative to the gate at public crossings and all they need to do is tell you they are blind and we provide full protection as we do for large vehicles and livestock. They know they need to ring every time so there is no point providing the full signage in Braille. If they come across a private crossing for some reason it should be locked by the user and treated as a no entry to private land when they find the padlock. It’s a simple and safe system. 

Not many of them can drive, so road signs in general are not really applicable to them.  Any blind man who can find and use the crossing phone is doing remarkably well - he no doubt knows the locality intimately, and it wasn't his guide dog that explained the rules to him.

 

Maybe a new issue will arise when we have fully autonomous cars, when we will no longer have any good reason to take issue about blind people, juveniles, or drunks being on their own in a vehicle - unless of course these driverless cars will also be able to communicate directly with signalboxes?

[PhilJ W]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

Are these foreign delivery drivers that cannot read signs or converse in English at level crossings also unaware what normal road signs in English say?

 

I know the major signage is mostly universal but what about some of the other instructions you get on signs?

You are supposed to be familiar with these to be able to obtain a licence and drive in this country.

 

What about if a police officer stops you and asks you something? "Me no understandy"

I have quite often driven on the continent where outside of the major ports and cities all the signage is in the local language, and I don't speak any language other than English. However I do understand what the signs mean and if I am uncertain I take extra caution.

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

unless of course these driverless cars will also be able to communicate directly with signalboxes?

They’ll have to interact with traffic lights and flashing railway lights so I guess level crossings with barriers will also show up on their radar/ lidar same as they show up on the OD’s radar and lidar. Autonomous cars have to recognise bollards, people and fences so level crossings shouldn’t be an issue. I guess any vehicle that comes within the guidelines for calling in will have to have that set when it is loaded much the same as they set the height reminder with lorries. I expect that while they also carry a driver the responsibility will remain with the human. The requirements for that will be covered by the Govt and new laws. 

[PhilJ W]

This driver must be blind and deaf.

 

[MartynJPearson]

News article from the local rag about a crossing in Nottingham showing a picture of kids sat on a crossing. Clearly not the brightest end of the gene pool.

 

Apologies if you don't have an ad blocker, from what I remember if they had as many adverts in the print copy as they do on their website, the paperboys would only be able to carry half a dozen papers.

 

https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/shocking-picture-shows-group-sat-5356375#source=breaking-news