Level crossing stupidity...

[boxbrownie]

55 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

I believe the issue was discussed on the Class 745/755 thread as the new stock wasn't activating the crossings properly.

Thanks, not seen it, just a bit shocked.

[Tumut]

HelloAll,

1 / I once thought the British idea of using a yellow flashing light was a sensible method of advance warning to slow down, however, in practice it apparently has the opposite effect.

2 / in Australia, the time between initiation, the Boom/AHB lowering to horizontal, and the train reaching the level crossing is 25-30 seconds ( it was previously 60 secs ). As a result, driving around boom barriers is rare in Australia. We also have a sign "Stop on Red Signal" below the flashing red lights, and some installations also have an additional sign"Keep tracks Clear" so in the event the road user ( including cyclists and pedestrians ) enters the crossing whilst the red lights are flashing, they are committing an offence.

3 / where a vehicle is struck by a train ( or a vehicle strikes a train ) whilst the red lights are flashing, then their prosecution is pretty much guaranteed, and they will potentially be subject to civil damages as well.

4 / in the US ( and parts of Australia ) a freight train striking a vehicle will usually push said vehicle for about one mile or so, hopefully off the track, but very occasionally the train will literally run right over the top of it.

5 / YouTube has numerous films of vehicles being stuck on level crossing road humps in the US, which seems to me to be a road engineering problem that contributes to the subsequent accident. In other instances it is just plain stupidity.

6 / many years ago I saw a photo of a road sign by the Union Pacific  which said "Trains cross here at 60mph wether you are on the crossing or not"

Regards, Tumut

[Michael Hodgson]

46 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Thanks, not seen it, just a bit shocked.

 

Then you probably wouldn't have liked a photo I took some years ago but can't immediately locate.  

 

This is a more recent view of the same User Worked Crossing.  It's on a 4-track section of the ECML, and the road is a cul-de-sac leading to the houses seen on the other side of the line.   The photo I've mislaid shows a HST hurtling past at line speed, the Miniature Warning Light showing red, but the barriers raised.  Everything was working correctly, which is why step 3 of the instructions was so important.

 

 

 

[Reorte]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Then you probably wouldn't have liked a photo I took some years ago but can't immediately locate.  

 

This is a more recent view of the same User Worked Crossing.  It's on a 4-track section of the ECML, and the road is a cul-de-sac leading to the houses seen on the other side of the line.   The photo I've mislaid shows a HST hurtling past at line speed, the Miniature Warning Light showing red, but the barriers raised.  Everything was working correctly, which is why step 3 of the instructions was so important.

Would that be a fault or someone driving through and leaving the barriers up?

[Wickham Green too]

"Check that green light still shows" ..... obviously it didn't in this case !

[Michael Hodgson]

18 minutes ago, Reorte said:

Would that be a fault or someone driving through and leaving the barriers up?

No.  As I said it's working correctly, as designed.

 

Normal position of barriers is down. 

You stop, and provided the light is green you get out, pump the barriers up and get back into your vehicle.

You then check the light is STILL green and provided it is, you cross then lower the barriers from the far side.

If a train approaches while you are doing this, the light changes from green to red and you must wait until the train goes past - it's not going to stop.  I think the delay from red light to arrival of train is about 40 sec.

 

If you need to cross with something slow and lumbering, you have to phone and ask permission.  When he can find a gap between trains, the signaller will have to set signals to danger on all roads and only then can he give permission.  But for ordinary traffic the signals remain automatic. and they do not protect the crossing.

[Michael Hodgson]

5 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

"Check that green light still shows" ..... obviously it didn't in this case !

The Norfolk incident was at an automatic crossing, a much more common type . 

That instruction and the green light for road users only applies to User Worked Crossings such as the one in my photos.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Tumut said:

HelloAll,

1 / I once thought the British idea of using a yellow flashing light was a sensible method of advance warning to slow down, however, in practice it apparently has the opposite effect.

2 / in Australia, the time between initiation, the Boom/AHB lowering to horizontal, and the train reaching the level crossing is 25-30 seconds ( it was previously 60 secs ). As a result, driving around boom barriers is rare in Australia. We also have a sign "Stop on Red Signal" below the flashing red lights, and some installations also have an additional sign"Keep tracks Clear" so in the event the road user ( including cyclists and pedestrians ) enters the crossing whilst the red lights are flashing, they are committing an offence.

 

 

A yellow flashing signal on the railway is advance warning of a junction signal cleared for a diverging route.

On "wig-wags" the light is officially called amber rather than yellow and it is steady, not flashing as in some other countries.  It gives 3 to 5 seconds warning (the same as at ordinary road traffic lights) before the twin reds start.

 

The inquiry following the Hixon accident recommended increasing the strike-in delay between first warning and arrival of the train was from around 24 seconds to 32.  I think the current standard is around 27, increasing if the crossing is very wide.   It is illegal to cross once the reds flash, and about 10 seconds later the half barriers start to drop.  Anybody weaving past the barriers at this stage is just asking for trouble.

  

Some crossings have a painted yellow box on the road surface (do not enter if the exit is obstructed) as with some traffic light controlled road junctions.  Some crossings have cameras (as used in speed traps) to support prosecution of those who jump the lights.  Train drivers are required to report crossing abuse and near misses are followed up. Forward facing CCTV on trains records what happens.

[MarkC]

The soft approach has been tried for long enough, I'm afraid. I'm now of the opinion that cameras, both ANPR & conventional CCTV, should be compulsory at crossings these days; a few heavy fine convictions would hopefully make people think twice before running the lights/barriers. Also yellow boxes at all crossings too.

 

Harsh? Perhaps, but how many more incidents and accidents are needed before something is done?

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, MarkC said:

Harsh? Perhaps, but how many more incidents and accidents are needed before something is done?

 

The railways are the victim of double standards when it comes to attitudes towards transport safety.

 

(1) All human life is sacred,  there is no price you can put on a human life, ....

Public transport must be completely free of accidents.  Absolutely.  Whatever the price

Safety rules must be strictly observed at all times

 

(2) it;s my human right to drive what I want, where I want and when I want.  Yes, safety is nice to have, but I can get a few thousand miles more out of these used tyres.  I'll pay for it when I have to, but I've got to keep costs down. 

I'm in a rush and I've got to get there.  Speed limits are for other people.

 

(3)  If the railway fares are too high, I'll drive.  I'm a good driver.  If I'm involved in an accident it's the other bloke's fault. 

 

Level crossings are where one set of safety standards and associated attitudes meets the other.

[boxbrownie]

5 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

The railways are the victim of double standards when it comes to attitudes towards transport safety.

 

(1) All human life is sacred,  there is no price you can put on a human life, ....

Public transport must be completely free of accidents.  Absolutely.  Whatever the price

Safety rules must be strictly observed at all times

 

(2) it;s my human right to drive what I want, where I want and when I want.  Yes, safety is nice to have, but I can get a few thousand miles more out of these used tyres.  I'll pay for it when I have to, but I've got to keep costs down. 

I'm in a rush and I've got to get there.  Speed limits are for other people.

 

(3)  If the railway fares are too high, I'll drive.  I'm a good driver.  If I'm involved in an accident it's the other bloke's fault. 

 

Level crossings are where one set of safety standards and associated attitudes meets the other.

It seems ironic that nowadays that attitudes to following the rules are so lax that we have flimsy half barrier unmanned crossings, where as in the past when attitudes were different and more rules were (usually) followed we had heavy duty double gated manned crossings…….seems to me the perfect storm.

[Ken.W]

6 hours ago, Tumut said:

HelloAll,

1 / I once thought the British idea of using a yellow flashing light was a sensible method of advance warning to slow down, however, in practice it apparently has the opposite effect.

 

No, the Amber on UK traffic lights, including level crossings, isn't an advance warning to slow down, it actually means STOP, unless unsafe to do so.

It's to allow drivers already too close, or with some idiot tailgating them, to continue through safely on the amber, and avoid drivers jamming the brakes on when the red appears.

By the time the red comes on, you've had sufficient time to stop and there's no excuse for going through on the red, even as its just come on.

 

Agreed though that the majority of drivers do the exact opposite 

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

It seems ironic that nowadays that attitudes to following the rules are so lax that we have flimsy half barrier unmanned crossings, where as in the past when attitudes were different and more rules were (usually) followed we had heavy duty double gated manned crossings…….seems to me the perfect storm.

The heavy wooden gates were designed when road users were powered by animals with enough horse sense not try vaulting over them.
Manning was OK when labour was cheap, but delays became an issue was the volume of road traffic rose.  The delays caused by interlocking the gates with signals meant that instead of waiting less than a minute for the train at an automatic crossing, road users had to wait a good few minutes at manual crossings - the crossing signal and its distant have to be clear before the driver sees it.  4-aspect signalling makes that worse - to avoid delaying trains, the crossing signal must be cleared before the driver hits the AWS ramp three signals back.

 

The public want the safety of conventional manual crossings - until you tell them how much less delay they suffer at an AHB.  I believe the trend would continue to be back towards full-barrier interlocked crossings as road use continues to increase - but autonomous cars are coming, and they can be programmed to obey the rules and maybe even interact intelligently with trains removing the need for barriers, except that they will still be needed to protect pedestrians and children.

[kevinlms]

18 hours ago, TheQ said:

just a minor incident.

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/traffic/car-crashes-into-level-crossing-near-attleborough-8456424

Must have been rather more significant.

 

"Due to a road vehicle colliding with level crossing barriers between Thetford and #Attleborough trains have to run at reduced speed on all lines. "

 

All lines with reduced speeds, that will be a mess!

[Ken.W]

53 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Must have been rather more significant.

 

"Due to a road vehicle colliding with level crossing barriers between Thetford and #Attleborough trains have to run at reduced speed on all lines. "

 

All lines with reduced speeds, that will be a mess!

 

Nothing exceptional about that.

One of the barriers is damaged, so the road isn't closed on one side of the line

So that means all trains have to stopped and cautioned over the crossing, always the case in such incidents

[phil-b259]

12 hours ago, Tumut said:

 

2 / in Australia, the time between initiation, the Boom/AHB lowering to horizontal, and the train reaching the level crossing is 25-30 seconds ( it was previously 60 secs ). As a result, driving around boom barriers is rare in Australia.

 

In the UK it is a legal requirement that 80% of trains MUST arrive at an automatic level crossing within 35 seconds of the sequence starting.

 

If this cannot be met due to differing train speeds (e.g. express passenger and slow freight) or if there is a station close to the crossing (meaning stopping trains will be doing a significantly lower speed than express services at said crossing) then additional signalling controls must be installed to ensure compliance with the 80% requirement.

 

 

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, Ken.W said:

 

Nothing exceptional about that.

One of the barriers is damaged, so the road isn't closed on one side of the line

So that means all trains have to stopped and cautioned over the crossing, always the case in such incidents

You missed the point of my post. The article said ALL lines, not just those relevant!

[MarkC]

11 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

The railways are the victim of double standards when it comes to attitudes towards transport safety.

 

(1) All human life is sacred,  there is no price you can put on a human life, ....

Public transport must be completely free of accidents.  Absolutely.  Whatever the price

Safety rules must be strictly observed at all times

 

(2) it;s my human right to drive what I want, where I want and when I want.  Yes, safety is nice to have, but I can get a few thousand miles more out of these used tyres.  I'll pay for it when I have to, but I've got to keep costs down. 

I'm in a rush and I've got to get there.  Speed limits are for other people.

 

(3)  If the railway fares are too high, I'll drive.  I'm a good driver.  If I'm involved in an accident it's the other bloke's fault. 

 

Level crossings are where one set of safety standards and associated attitudes meets the other.

Agreed, but which attitude should prevail? And how about the train driver, who is powerless to stop what's about to happen? He/she is, for the most part, forgotten about unless they are a physical casualty...

[Hobby]

3 hours ago, kevinlms said:

You missed the point of my post. The article said ALL lines, not just those relevant!

 

It just means all lines that go through the level crossing, not the whole country! Railway Speak.

[Dunsignalling]

14 hours ago, MarkC said:

The soft approach has been tried for long enough, I'm afraid. I'm now of the opinion that cameras, both ANPR & conventional CCTV, should be compulsory at crossings these days; a few heavy fine convictions would hopefully make people think twice before running the lights/barriers. Also yellow boxes at all crossings too.

 

Harsh? Perhaps, but how many more incidents and accidents are needed before something is done?

And an automatic driving ban with zero magistrate discretion for "hardship". As we see with the thousands who are still permitted to drive having accumulated penalty points well beyond the banning point, such discretion is applied far too leniently. 

 

Apocryphally, there are relatively few "soft" magistrates who allow the majority of these let-offs, so maybe they need to be rationed....

 

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[kevinlms]

29 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

It just means all lines that go through the level crossing, not the whole country! Railway Speak.

It was a joke,

 

Never mind.

[Hobby]

I did wonder, but the lack of an emoji made me wonder if you were actually serious!  

[PhilJ W]

7 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Must have been rather more significant.

 

"Due to a road vehicle colliding with level crossing barriers between Thetford and #Attleborough trains have to run at reduced speed on all lines. "

 

All lines with reduced speeds, that will be a mess!

Just sloppy reporting

[beast66606]

7 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Must have been rather more significant.

 

"Due to a road vehicle colliding with level crossing barriers between Thetford and #Attleborough trains have to run at reduced speed on all lines. "

 

All lines with reduced speeds, that will be a mess!

 

It's the EDP, those of us who live in the area are well used to their reports

 

[boxbrownie]

9 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The heavy wooden gates were designed when road users were powered by animals with enough horse sense not try vaulting over them.
Manning was OK when labour was cheap, but delays became an issue was the volume of road traffic rose.  The delays caused by interlocking the gates with signals meant that instead of waiting less than a minute for the train at an automatic crossing, road users had to wait a good few minutes at manual crossings - the crossing signal and its distant have to be clear before the driver sees it.  4-aspect signalling makes that worse - to avoid delaying trains, the crossing signal must be cleared before the driver hits the AWS ramp three signals back.

 

The public want the safety of conventional manual crossings - until you tell them how much less delay they suffer at an AHB.  I believe the trend would continue to be back towards full-barrier interlocked crossings as road use continues to increase - but autonomous cars are coming, and they can be programmed to obey the rules and maybe even interact intelligently with trains removing the need for barriers, except that they will still be needed to protect pedestrians and children.

Indeed, I know the reasons but doesn’t take the irony away 

 

In our small town back in Essex when we first moved there back in the late 70’s it had the full wooden gated manned crossing and plenty of commuters even then ( it was at the end of the platforms) but after about 10 years the powers that be decided an automatic unmanned crossing was all that was needed, and every single time I ever got stopped in my car waiting there was ALWAYS  four or five passengers on foot who dodged through the gates and whipped across the line either before the train arrived or before it left, never happened before as Bob (the keeper) was a bit big and stared down those who looked impatient waiting at the foot gates