Level crossing stupidity...

[Coryton]

I am beginning to think that some who have contributed recently think it s okay because the driver has stopped the train and operated the barriers but because the train is stationary, it is okay for people to continue to cross?

 

I certainly don't think it's OK, but it should be seen as what it is - objectionable because it could delay a train not because of the very small risk (you are far more likely to end up under a car coming out of the Co-op car-park without looking)

 

What I really don't think is OK though is for the BTP to claim this is incredibly reckless when the danger is actually very small (and they have made similar comments about non train-crew operated full barrier crossings).

 

Either they are deliberately lying, or they don't understand the difference between full and (much more dangerous) half barrier crossings, and either way I have a much bigger problem with that than someone crossing while a barrier is dropping.

 

I wonder if the person responsible for the quote from the BTP always stops their car at a yellow traffic light unless they are so close to the stop line that it would be dangerous? Or is that different?

 

(And while ignorance of the law is no defence, I've just seen that the Highway Code on-line currently doesn't actually say what the red and yellow lights at level crossing signify. I'd argue that's a bit reckless...)

Edited January 25, 2019 by Coryton

[Hobby]

 

Ruddy noisy place is America... All that for a two coach train! They'd have a fit over here if they used the horn as often as that!

[alastairq]

Ruddy noisy place is America... All that for a two coach train! They'd have a fit over here if they used the horn as often as that!

 You hear it before you feel it?

 

[3 coaches! That's how collisions happen....miscounting?      ]

[Hobby]

[3 coaches! That's how collisions happen....miscounting?      ]

 

Yep, I got bored with all the hooters and no train so fast forwarded it!

[Coryton]

Ruddy noisy place is America... All that for a two coach train! They'd have a fit over here if they used the horn as often as that!

 

Plenty of places in America do have a problem with train horns at crossings.

 

I travelled on a tourist service in the US once, and it passed through an area where train horns were banned so they had to send flagmen ahead to protect crossings. (If I recall correctly, the loco had a roomy cab and a crew of five - I'm not sure what they all did).

[alastairq]

 

 

 (If I recall correctly, the loco had a roomy cab and a crew of five - I'm not sure what they all did).

 

Natter? 

[jim.snowdon]

Plenty of places in America do have a problem with train horns at crossings.

 

I travelled on a tourist service in the US once, and it passed through an area where train horns were banned so they had to send flagmen ahead to protect crossings. (If I recall correctly, the loco had a roomy cab and a crew of five - I'm not sure what they all did).

Maintain the union agreements about manning?

 

Jim

[jamie92208]

Maintain the union agreements about manning?

 

Jim

The old full crew rules that IIRC lasted till about 1980 had a crew of 5 per train, an engineer, fireman and head brakeman in the loco and the rear brakeman and conductor in the caboose.  This was a hangover from the days when brakemen ran along the tops of cars winding brakes on by hand.  As they had to provide a 3rd seat a lot of locos had a spare for spare crew members and or an Inspector, so the cabs were usually quite long with two seats one either side, behind each other.  Big Boys have very roomy cabs as does 844 the 4-8-4.  You climbed the ladder, went along the corridor between loco and tender then took the first door on the left to get into the cab. It was quite an experience.

 

Jamie

Edited January 25, 2019 by jamie92208

[Gibbo675]

Hi Folks,

 

Not so much stupidity but quite mad that the cars just sit there.

 

 

 

Gibbo.

[ejstubbs]

(And while ignorance of the law is no defence, I've just seen that the Highway Code on-line currently doesn't actually say what the red and yellow lights at level crossing signify. I'd argue that's a bit reckless...)

 

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/road-works-level-crossings-and-tramways-288-to-307

 

Rule 293

 

Controlled Crossings. Most crossings have traffic light signals with a steady amber light, twin flashing red stop lights (see ‘Light signals controlling traffic’ and ‘Traffic signs’) and an audible alarm for pedestrians. They may have full, half or no barriers.

• You MUST always obey the flashing red stop lights.
• You MUST stop behind the white line across the road.
• Keep going if you have already crossed the white line when the amber light comes on.
• Do not reverse onto or over a controlled crossing.
• You MUST wait if a train goes by and the red lights continue to flash. This means another train will be passing soon.
• Only cross when the lights go off and barriers open.
• Never zig-zag around half-barriers, they lower automatically because a train is approaching.
• At crossings where there are no barriers, a train is approaching when the lights show.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/light-signals-controlling-traffic

 

 

(FWIW the amber light means the same as it does on a normal traffic light.  Rule 293 merely expands on this a bit by saying you shouldn't stop if you see the amber once you've already crossed the white line.  Not stopping such circumstances at a normal traffic light would be legal anyway, but at a level crossing the emphasis moves from "it's OK not to stop" to "if you do stop the outcome might be painful".)

[Coryton]

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/road-works-level-crossings-and-tramways-288-to-307

 

Rule 293

 

Controlled Crossings. Most crossings have traffic light signals with a steady amber light, twin flashing red stop lights (see ‘Light signals controlling traffic’ and ‘Traffic signs’) and an audible alarm for pedestrians. They may have full, half or no barriers.

• You MUST always obey the flashing red stop lights.
• You MUST stop behind the white line across the road.
• Keep going if you have already crossed the white line when the amber light comes on.
• Do not reverse onto or over a controlled crossing.
• You MUST wait if a train goes by and the red lights continue to flash. This means another train will be passing soon.
• Only cross when the lights go off and barriers open.
• Never zig-zag around half-barriers, they lower automatically because a train is approaching.
• At crossings where there are no barriers, a train is approaching when the lights show.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/light-signals-controlling-traffic

 

 

(FWIW the amber light means the same as it does on a normal traffic light.  Rule 293 merely expands on this a bit by saying you shouldn't stop if you see the amber once you've already crossed the white line.  Not stopping such circumstances at a normal traffic light would be legal anyway, but at a level crossing the emphasis moves from "it's OK not to stop" to "if you do stop the outcome might be painful".)

 

Good!

 

I was looking at a different page in the online highway code - on assorted traffic lights where it told you what 'normal' traffic lights mean but for this one just showed the picture without comments.

[wombatofludham]

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/terrifying-moment-woman-walks-across-15728385?fbclid=IwAR1HjpcDkWDIHghwyyRVOy2nm7VsPxM427E2Itapj9Oe_CBRs5n-cPp7qPU

 

Yhere are some strange people, and NR has to manage them.

 

Barmouth.  The train stops on approach to the crossing from Morfa and the driver leans over to activate the crossing roughly where the old signalbox was, and from Pwllheli the driver goes to a cabinet on the end of the platform to initiate the sequence.  I suspect that this method of operation encourages abuse from locals because they know the train has stopped - not that that is an excuse but Barmouth crossing does seem to be a bit of a blackspot for crossing abuse, there are regular reports of people (mainly locals) getting hauled up before the beak for not obeying the crossing.  

 

Obviously the ideal solution would be people don't abuse the crossing but given they do, with a degree of regularity, I'm not sure what else can be done.  The driver activated crossing is probably right for the situation, it is a full barriered crossing appropriate for the busy location, but the fact the train stops for something like 90 seconds whilst the sequence is activated, or the train is stopped in the station when the sequence is triggered, seems to encourage some to think they can ignore the lights.

 

There again every summer visitors to the town wander aimlessly down the middle of the high street in some vain assumption that as they are on holiday the bus or truck coming towards them won't hurt them so suicidal humans and Barmouth seem to go together.  I avoid the place like the plague.

[Coryton]

I agree that it's hard to see what can or should be done about the crossing, but...

 

 

There again every summer visitors to the town wander aimlessly down the middle of the high street in some vain assumption that as they are on holiday the bus or truck coming towards them won't hurt them so suicidal humans and Barmouth seem to go together.  I avoid the place like the plague.

 

Can't agree with you there.

 

Wonderful walking and views from the hills behind, with trains on Barmouth bridge and the Fairbourne Railway across the water to add interest.

 

Tallyllyn, Ffestiniog and both Welsh Highland Railways a short(ish) distance away (and accessible by train).

 

If only the weather was a bit more predictable...I'm probably a bit biased because my last trips there coincided with the sort of weather one can hope for but rarely gets.

[stewartingram]

Barmouth.  The train stops on approach to the crossing from Morfa and the driver leans over to activate the crossing roughly where the old signalbox was, and from Pwllheli the driver goes to a cabinet on the end of the platform to initiate the sequence.  I suspect that this method of operation encourages abuse from locals because they know the train has stopped - not that that is an excuse but Barmouth crossing does seem to be a bit of a blackspot for crossing abuse, there are regular reports of people (mainly locals) getting hauled up before the beak for not obeying the crossing.  

 

Obviously the ideal solution would be people don't abuse the crossing but given they do, with a degree of regularity, I'm not sure what else can be done.  The driver activated crossing is probably right for the situation, it is a full barriered crossing appropriate for the busy location, but the fact the train stops for something like 90 seconds whilst the sequence is activated, or the train is stopped in the station when the sequence is triggered, seems to encourage some to think they can ignore the lights.

 

There again every summer visitors to the town wander aimlessly down the middle of the high street in some vain assumption that as they are on holiday the bus or truck coming towards them won't hurt them so suicidal humans and Barmouth seem to go together.  I avoid the place like the plague.

Oh dear - they really should be wearing HiVi - don't they know things will bounce off them if they do?

 

Stewart

[Coryton]

I came across this today: https://www.rac.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?24236-Mistake-at-level-crossing-feel-terrible which I found interesting.

 

Although I wouldn't call it "stupidity", I think it's relevant to discussion on this thread.

 

I'm impressed with the poster's attitude, though it sounds like a full barrier crossing so the they weren't in as much danger as they thought.

 

There may be people here who haven't made similar bad split-second decisions. I'm not one of them.

[big jim]

Regards barmouth in the towyn direction you don’t activate the crossing until you have the movement authority on the ERTMS screen (ie section ahead is open) otherwise it will time out and the barriers will raise should you be sat there a while

 

Not relevant to the video above but thought I’d mention it anyway!

Edited January 25, 2019 by big jim

[pH]

Plenty of places in America do have a problem with train horns at crossings.

 

There have been occasions in North America when towns have told railways to stop using horns at road/rail crossings. The railways have replied that they would be happy to do so, as long as the towns will indemnify them from the results of any crossing accidents occurring after they stop using horns. I don't know if any towns have done so.

[newbryford]

Plenty of places in America do have a problem with train horns at crossings.

 

 

 

There are "quiet zones" where horns are not normally used - one very visible (and audible) example is the railcam at Ashland VA.

 

In Miami/Fort Lauderdale/Palm Beach, the recently introduced Brightline passenger service has increased train frequency, therefore increased horn use.

The locals have complained.

The proposed solution to create a quiet zone is to completely fence the line and put full barriers across (with obstacle detection) so that horns aren't required.

The locals then complain that they can't cross the line when a train is near................

 

A huge problem is that there are many grade crossings in proximity - such as these multiple horn examples.

This video actually highlights the difference in timings between freight and passenger and goes part way to explain why they were four fatalities in the run up and first week of the Brightline service

 

And as much of the area is flat, it's near impossible to remove or replace the crossings with over/underpasses.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[PhilJ W]

Hi Folks,

 

Not so much stupidity but quite mad that the cars just sit there.

 

 

 

Gibbo.

What else could they do but sit there? Obviously the car with the dashcam done a three point turn and no doubt the others did likewise as soon as the road behind was clear.

[pH]

What else could they do but sit there? Obviously the car with the dashcam done a three point turn and no doubt the others did likewise as soon as the road behind was clear.

As I said in the topic discussing this derailment, I would have been reversing rapidly up the shoulder as soon as I saw the first car come off.

[Right Away]

Not sure if this has been mentioned before but there was a TV documentary a good few years ago pertaining to collisions on some notorious open "grade" crossings in the USA.

 

Studies undertaken revealed how long it took a delayed road user to make irrational and dangerous decisions; so many seconds before becoming irritated, a few more seconds to start becoming annoyed to finally casting all sense of reason aside and taking a possibly fatal risk, ignoring all warnings and driving over the railroad track.

 

My late father related some of his experiences when AHBs were first introduced in rural locations in Sussex when motorists had come precariously close to being wrapped around his buffers on several occasions.

 

Time has marched on. The pace of modern living appears to consume more and more hours of the day which in turn has a cumulative effect on people's daily schedules. It is no excuse for endangering others.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Right Away

[wombatofludham]

Can't agree with you there.

 

Wonderful walking and views from the hills behind, with trains on Barmouth bridge and the Fairbourne Railway across the water to add interest.

 

Tallyllyn, Ffestiniog and both Welsh Highland Railways a short(ish) distance away (and accessible by train).

 

If only the weather was a bit more predictable...I'm probably a bit biased because my last trips there coincided with the sort of weather one can hope for but rarely gets.

 

I live locally and whilst it's nice that people come to enjoy the area and we can relieve you of nice folding currency to do so, the fact I have to try and play Russian Roulette every month during the season with jaywalking visitors, seemingly oblivious to the approach of my Saab 9-5,  when I pop to the chemist in Barmouth to pick up my prescription means that for seven or so months of the year I really try to minimise my visits to the town, nice as it is.  Trying to time my visit somewhere between the masses deciding to go for chips or a shandy, and the chemist closing is something of an art I'm getting better at.

 

Still, I get five months of the year when I can avoid the crowds and appreciate the Greater Mawddach area on my own!

[Coryton]

I live locally and whilst it's nice that people come to enjoy the area and we can relieve you of nice folding currency to do so, the fact I have to try and play Russian Roulette every month during the season with jaywalking visitors, seemingly oblivious to the approach of my Saab 9-5,  when I pop to the chemist in Barmouth to pick up my prescription means that for seven or so months of the year I really try to minimise my visits to the town, nice as it is.  Trying to time my visit somewhere between the masses deciding to go for chips or a shandy, and the chemist closing is something of an art I'm getting better at.

 

Still, I get five months of the year when I can avoid the crowds and appreciate the Greater Mawddach area on my own!

 

Bit of a long way round to get to Barmouth from Fairbourne by road, compared to the distance by train...

[St. Simon]

Not sure if this has been mentioned before but there was a TV documentary a good few years ago pertaining to collisions on some notorious open "grade" crossings in the USA.

 

Studies undertaken revealed how long it took a delayed road user to make irrational and dangerous decisions; so many seconds before becoming irritated, a few more seconds to start becoming annoyed to finally casting all sense of reason aside and taking a possibly fatal risk, ignoring all warnings and driving over the railroad track.

 

My late father related some of his experiences when AHBs were first introduced in rural locations in Sussex when motorists had come precariously close to being wrapped around his buffers on several occasions.

 

Time has marched on. The pace of modern living appears to consume more and more hours of the day which in turn has a cumulative effect on people's daily schedules. It is no excuse for endangering others.

Hi,

 

This sort of reasoning is something that myself and other designers do have to take into account when designing crossings, and it can make what on the face it is a simple crossing into a complicated design job!

 

Simon

[jamie92208]

There have been occasions in North America when towns have told railways to stop using horns at road/rail crossings. The railways have replied that they would be happy to do so, as long as the towns will indemnify them from the results of any crossing accidents occurring after they stop using horns. I don't know if any towns have done so.

 

There are quite a few "quiet zones" I know of at least one I  the Riverside area of East LA through one particular township.  The crews don't like them, according to the driver that I talked to.  I believe that they have upgraded the crossings but don't know the details.   There are certainly a lot of towns pushing for quiet zones but I don't think that many get created.  I also am not aware of the safety record in such zones.

 

Jamie