Level crossing stupidity...

[96701]

I can see all four.

I wonder why a pedestal had to be replaced then....... the car must have hit one of them, but now you mention it, there is a barrier still up nearest the camera. Weird.

[DCB]

The real stupidity is the level crossing in Cheltenham where the gates remain closed while a train sits in the station about 400 yards away immobile waiting time. Totally bloody pointless and intensely annoying.  No wonder people get fed up and take risks to avoid completely unnecessary lengthy delays.

[uax6]

The real stupidity is the level crossing in Cheltenham where the gates remain closed while a train sits in the station about 400 yards away immobile waiting time. Totally bloody pointless and intensely annoying.  No wonder people get fed up and take risks to avoid completely unnecessary lengthy delays.

 

And sadly the length of time the barriers are down is a direct result of car drivers taking chances. As AHBC's get replaced by MCB-OD's the crossing will be closed for a much, much longer time.

 

Also as the standards have changed in the last 20 years, signals have been pulled further and further away from crossings, and this leads to the crossings being across a lot longer. Four out of my five signals here in the box are protecting level crossings, and three are now sub-standard distance from the crossings that they protect.

 

Also I have noticed that timetabling is less aware of things like crossings. In the recent timetable farce the trains were re-timed to cross and wait to go onto our single line. The result is that depending on how late the down man is, we can have the gates over for almost ten minutes, with little chance of a quick swing in the middle. Its not too bad here at the minute as there is a low bridge for cars, but that is closing soon, which will make life somewhat difficult, as even quick swings will be out of the question as you won't be able to get the gates back across the road again in the queue of traffic, and of course, as soon as you are seen going down, the traffic is going to start speeding up to beat you. I'm not looking forward to it....

 

Andy G

[monkeysarefun]

Not many level crossings get a youtube training video on how to use them, but then again not many have road trains using them...

 

[Colin_McLeod]

I wonder why a pedestal had to be replaced then....... the car must have hit one of them, but now you mention it, there is a barrier still up nearest the camera. Weird.

"Weird" Not really as it is possible that the barriers were up when the accident occured.

[Wickham Green]

The real stupidity is the level crossing in Cheltenham where the gates remain closed while a train sits in the station about 400 yards away immobile waiting time. Totally bloody pointless and intensely annoying.  No wonder people get fed up and take risks to avoid completely unnecessary lengthy delays.

Yes - there are some annoying ones about ...... I was over in County Antrim a couple of years ago and aiming to catch a train from Jordanstown back to Carrickfergus where I was staying : arrived in what I thought was good time and got stopped by the barrier going down for a southbound train which duly arrived, stopped and went on its way to Belfast - then 'my' northbound train arrived, stopped and went on its way while I was still stuck on the wrong side of the line with no other way of crossing ..... talk about frustration !

[Coryton]

Yes - there are some annoying ones about ...... I was over in County Antrim a couple of years ago and aiming to catch a train from Jordanstown back to Carrickfergus where I was staying : arrived in what I thought was good time and got stopped by the barrier going down for a southbound train which duly arrived, stopped and went on its way to Belfast - then 'my' northbound train arrived, stopped and went on its way while I was still stuck on the wrong side of the line with no other way of crossing ..... talk about frustration !

 

Had a similar situation on the West Somerset Railway - a warning that if you crossed the line to look at the displays on the other side you had to make sure you crossed back before your train arrived would have been exceedingly useful.

 

Standing on the non-platform side of the train you want to catch, with no legitimate way of getting on it, is not a lot of fun.

 

The next one was only an hour later.

[The Stationmaster]

We were shown an interesting example of level crossing misuse this morning on a team brief.

 

Imagine the scene - an occupation crossing complete with locked gates and red / green warning lights.

 

An authorised user drives up sees the lights are green so unlocks and opens the nearest one gate, they cross the railway unlock and open the second gate,

 

They return to their car and drive it across*....... and disappear into the distance leaving both gates wide open.

 

Some time later the miniature warning lights change to red as there is a train approaching.

 

However we then see another vehicle approach the crossing. Despite the red light, the occupants of the car do not hesitate and start to drive over the crossing......

 

.....Fortunately at the last minute they see the approaching train and stop - but because the front of the car is still slightly foul of the line the car gets a glancing blow.

 

The distressed occupants of the car get out exclaiming loudly "what happened", "I don't know".

 

They go and look at the miniature warning light - which is now showing green again as the train has passed.

 

Had the key holder bothered to shut and lock the gates behind him then the collision wouldn't have occured

Had the driver of the second car stopped to check the miniature warning lights as they approached then they wouldn't have driven onto the crossing

And....

Had NR not fitted 3 cameras around the crossing then we would have no way of knowing what went on and would have been unable to prove the miniature warning lights were working correctly.

 

* It doesn't look like the authorised user paid much attention to the miniature warning lights before driving across - there have been incidents where the lights may be green when users start operating gates, etc but go red before the user has a chance to drive across and the users doesn't do a final check before driving onto the crossing.....

 

If I can get hold of the video I will put it on here.

 

All too typical of what can, and does, go on at occupation/accommodation crossings.  This is one of the reasons why I think they need to separated from public level crossings in both statistics and they way they are considered and treated in safety terms as they are very different beasts with very different sorts of risks (such as this one).  I wouldn't be at all surprised that the driver of the first vehicle to cross would have said in his defence that 'I'm just popping over for whatever and will be back soon so have left the gates open ready because it will only be a few minutes'. - which is probably the oldest excuse in the book for not shutting the gates and the 'few minutes' could sometimes be measured in hours.

[big jim]

Yes - there are some annoying ones about ...... I was over in County Antrim a couple of years ago and aiming to catch a train from Jordanstown back to Carrickfergus where I was staying : arrived in what I thought was good time and got stopped by the barrier going down for a southbound train which duly arrived, stopped and went on its way to Belfast - then 'my' northbound train arrived, stopped and went on its way while I was still stuck on the wrong side of the line with no other way of crossing ..... talk about frustration !

 

lock lane near long eaton is a crossing that is down for an age, luckily it only goes to a golf course but is always busy

 

coming from toton direction if i get a green at trent jn then signal protecting the crossing is off and the barrier is down, also he wont hold me at trent jn as the back end of my train blocks north erewash crossing too!

 

out of interest the other week i timed from getting/seeing the green to the back end of my train going over the crossing and it was around about 8 minutes as i had to pull away from a stand with 1200 ton, 2200ft long intermodal train, 35mph line speed for 1/2 mile down to 10mph across the adverse cant across the MML line, 15mph once clear of that for about 300m, 1/4 mile further to the crossing then 2200ft of train to cross which for the majority will only be doing 15-20mph as i accelerate away from the 15mph restriction   

[RJS1977]

Had a similar situation on the West Somerset Railway - a warning that if you crossed the line to look at the displays on the other side you had to make sure you crossed back before your train arrived would have been exceedingly useful.

 

Standing on the non-platform side of the train you want to catch, with no legitimate way of getting on it, is not a lot of fun.

 

The next one was only an hour later.

 

There have been a few occasions when I've been doing the Ash Vale- North Camp foot connection and approached North Camp to see the barriers coming down, and resorted to climbing the embankment to the bypass to cross the line. Fortunately on most occasions it has turned out that the barriers were going down for a train going the 'wrong' way, but on at least one occasion I've run hard and *just* made the train back to Reading!

[96701]

"Weird" Not really as it is possible that the barriers were up when the accident occured.

Yes, the barriers were up when the accident occurred. It doesn't stop a car hitting a pedestal. Which must have happened because a pedestal had to be renewed.

[jamie92208]

lock lane near long eaton is a crossing that is down for an age, luckily it only goes to a golf course but is always busy

 

coming from toton direction if i get a green at trent jn then signal protecting the crossing is off and the barrier is down, also he wont hold me at trent jn as the back end of my train blocks north erewash crossing too!

 

out of interest the other week i timed from getting/seeing the green to the back end of my train going over the crossing and it was around about 8 minutes as i had to pull away from a stand with 1200 ton, 2200ft long intermodal train, 35mph line speed for 1/2 mile down to 10mph across the adverse cant across the MML line, 15mph once clear of that for about 300m, 1/4 mile further to the crossing then 2200ft of train to cross which for the majority will only be doing 15-20mph as i accelerate away from the 15mph restriction   

 

Just out of interest Jim, do you have those counters like they do in the states, that measure the length of the train and tell you when the tail end is clear of a particular point or speed restriction. I've seen them being used in videos.

 

Jamie

[david.hill64]

Just out of interest Jim, do you have those counters like they do in the states, that measure the length of the train and tell you when the tail end is clear of a particular point or speed restriction. I've seen them being used in videos.

 

Jamie

One of the features of ETCS is that it needs to know the length of a train. Only when the end of a train is clear of a speed restriction will the permissible speed on the driver's display step up to whatever is consistent with the current movement authority and line speed. A useful feature I think if drivers are driving trains are of varying lengths.

[101]

All class 66s have a train length counter, the train length is entered manually during train prep, the driver then presses a button as the loco passes the end of a restriction and it then counts down and sounds an alarm - usually you can't hear it! - when the rear of the train passes the restriction.

Edited to add there is also a visual countdown on the data recorder for when you don't hear it

Edited November 8, 2018 by 101

[big jim]

One of the features of ETCS is that it needs to know the length of a train. Only when the end of a train is clear of a speed restriction will the permissible speed on the driver's display step up to whatever is consistent with the current movement authority and line speed. A useful feature I think if drivers are driving trains are of varying lengths.

Very useful if it worked properly in the first place

 

I’ve mentioned this scenario countless times in various ERTMS threads but I’ll put it again here

 

As it stands now (ie cambrian ertms) on a 97 you can only input one set length for the different types of trains, passenger or freight so if input I’m a class 97 hauling a passenger train the system ‘assumes’ I have the default 12 coach train behind me, I cannot adjust that even if I have only 4 vehicles (such as on the NR test trains), similarly if I put I’m freight it will assume I have the default 10 vehicles behind me (even if I have 20, which has happened in the not too distant past)

 

Herein lies the problem approaching a speed restriction the train has to be doing the restricted speed 100m before it, as bought down from line speed by the driver within the ‘speed hook’and once over the restriction it will not let you accellerate until 100m beyond the end of the restriction, so a 4 coach ‘passenger’ train going over say a 500m 10kph restriction has to be doing 10kph for 700m PLUS the system then counts 8 ‘invisible’ coaches over the restriction too making a 500m restriction something more like 800-850m long

 

likewise a ‘freight’ with 20 auto hoppers will be told it’s clear of a restriction when I reality there could be 5-6 wagons still on it!

 

It is a simple fix apparently by a quick rewrite of the software but no one seems keen implement it

[Rugd1022]

This might seem like an odd question Jim, but is the software able to take into account any gradient that happens to be where the restriction starts and finishes...? You and I both know that when coming off a restriction with a heavy freight you can easily be in notch 8 before you get anywhere near the 'T' board in reality, with the gradient rising but maintaining the same speed speed... I think you know what I'm getting at...  .

 

I'll be honest, I don't always use the train length button and rely on experience as much as anything else. Mind you, it did come in very handy when we were working the HOBC regularly which is exactly half a mile long when top 'n' tailed with 66s.

[big jim]

This might seem like an odd question Jim, but is the software able to take into account any gradient that happens to be where the restriction starts and finishes...?

No the braking curve is fixed regardless of gradient, it does show in the DMI if it’s falling or rising and to what extent but that’s just for show!

 

That’s where route knowledge comes in, we had a manager “at my last company” who tried to claim you didn’t need to learn the Cambrian route (in tge trasitional sense) as ertms told you where to stop, brake, accelerate etc and all other info could be got from the sectional appendix.

 

We soon shut him down by explaining it didn’t tell you where to brake for stations and indeed where those stations were and a lot more besides including in keeping with this thread locations of all level crossings such as the 100+ user worked crossings on the Cambrian (there used to be a lot more too!)

Edited November 8, 2018 by big jim

[Coryton]

Very useful if it worked properly in the first place

 

I’ve mentioned this scenario countless times in various ERTMS threads but I’ll put it again here

 

As it stands now (ie cambrian ertms) on a 97 you can only input one set length for the different types of trains, passenger or freight so if input I’m a class 97 hauling a passenger train the system ‘assumes’ I have the default 12 coach train behind me, I cannot adjust that even if I have only 4 vehicles (such as on the NR test trains), similarly if I put I’m freight it will assume I have the default 10 vehicles behind me (even if I have 20, which has happened in the not too distant past)

 

Herein lies the problem approaching a speed restriction the train has to be doing the restricted speed 100m before it, as bought down from line speed by the driver within the ‘speed hook’and once over the restriction it will not let you accellerate until 100m beyond the end of the restriction, so a 4 coach ‘passenger’ train going over say a 500m 10kph restriction has to be doing 10kph for 700m PLUS the system then counts 8 ‘invisible’ coaches over the restriction too making a 500m restriction something more like 800-850m long

 

likewise a ‘freight’ with 20 auto hoppers will be told it’s clear of a restriction when I reality there could be 5-6 wagons still on it!

 

It is a simple fix apparently by a quick rewrite of the software but no one seems keen implement it

 

And, if I recall correctly, that applies even if the restriction is for sighting purposes at a level crossing and therefore the point at which you can accelerate shouldn't depend on the train length anyway?

[101]

I'll be honest, I don't always use the train length button and rely on experience as much as anything else. Mind you, it did come in very handy when we were working the HOBC regularly which is exactly half a mile long when top 'n' tailed with 66s.

I was the same - when you the work the same trains regularly it all becomes a bit routine

It would have come in handy years ago before the 66s though, I can think of a couple of places/junctions where the inspectors liked to hang around with a speed gun and point It the back of the train. And it wasn't always easy to judge the length of a liner train!

[big jim]

And, if I recall correctly, that applies even if the restriction is for sighting purposes at a level crossing and therefore the point at which you can accelerate shouldn't depend on the train length anyway?

That’s correct and also what causes delays, traditionally it’s once on the crossing at the restriction speed you can accelerate back to line speed, ertms turns it into a 201m minimum length restriction, bear in mind there were about 6 in close succession to each other between dovey jn and towyn it equates to a good 20 mins lost in section with a 97 hauled train

[david.hill64]

No the braking curve is fixed regardless of gradient, it does show in the DMI if it’s falling or rising and to what extent but that’s just for show!

 

 

Jim, I am not sure you are correct there. The ETCS balise telegram includes information about gradients that the on-board ATP uses to calculate the intervention curves. Bangkok skytrain uses a CBTC system with ETCS balises and the gradient information is certainly used in this application.

 

If the ATP didn't include gradient information but used fixed braking curves, it would not be able to protect against SPADs on long falling gradients.

 

I think the limitations with the Cambrian installation is that it is quite likely to be an earlier version of the software, so the problems you describe may not now exist on current versions. I don't know for sure as I haven't been involved with ETCS for a couple of years.

[big jim]

Interesting, I’ll have to ask the question regards the gradients, I seem to remember being told it was also a ‘one size fits all’ solution

 

now I’m no longer with Colas I don’t deal with ertms day to day, I need to try and get down there at some point soon so I don’t lose my competency

[david.hill64]

Sorry I should edit my previous mail to say that if gradient information wasn’t included, then the ATP would not be able to protect against a SPAD on a falling gradient unless the ‘guaranteed minimum braking rate’ assumes the worst case gradient. But that would kill headway.

[Budgie]

I think the limitations with the Cambrian installation is that it is quite likely to be an earlier version of the software, so the problems you describe may not now exist on current versions. I don't know for sure as I haven't been involved with ETCS for a couple of years.

Haven't Railtrack heard of software upgrades, or do they just ignore them? Not good.

[Coryton]

Haven't Railtrack heard of software upgrades, or do they just ignore them? Not good.

 

Upgrading software on something like this is not a trivial exercise. (Nor quite on-topic in this thread, now I come to think of it).

 

I have read that to move from baseline 2 to baseline 3 each train has to be re-certified at substantial cost. (I don't know if that is a purely software upgrade or if there is any hardware change involved as well though).