British outline locos overseas

[EddieB]

38 minutes ago, Marshall5 said:

My guess is to enable filling from an overhead hopper whilst retaining the ability to use fire irons easily and remove a regulator rod etc.

Ray.

Quite possibly.  It appears to have been a modification made by the railway, rather than an original feature.

 

So what to make of this replica to be found in a park in Huelva?  Not a true locomotive, although it may contain some parts from one or more locomotives, with other bits fashioned to fit.

 

 

[brack]

On 13/09/2019 at 18:28, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Sir Douglas,

 

That is the most oddly shaped bunker I have ever seen !

 

Is there a reason for such a shape that you might know of ?

 

Gibbo.

Arrowslit?

[brack]

1 hour ago, EddieB said:

 So what to make of this replica to be found in a park in Huelva?  Not a true locomotive, although it may contain some parts from one or more locomotives, with other bits fashioned to fit.

 

Even more peculiar when there is no shortage of actual derelict rio Tinto 060t in the local area, not to mention the 11 in a scrap yard in zaragoza.

[railsquid]

Came across this Flickr group: British Export Trains

[BernardTPM]

On 05/09/2019 at 10:27, DavidB-AU said:

Not exactly a loco, but the Melbourne Harris train was based on the class 506.

 

 

Photo by Weston Langford from 1973 (CC-BY-ND).

 

Both the unit and overhead portals are so like the Shenfield electrification as built. And the VR's classic deep blue and yellow. Nice.

[WessexEclectic]

On 16/09/2019 at 18:24, EddieB said:

Quite possibly.  It appears to have been a modification made by the railway, rather than an original feature.

 

So what to make of this replica to be found in a park in Huelva?  Not a true locomotive, although it may contain some parts from one or more locomotives, with other bits fashioned to fit.

 

The Locomotive That Never Was...?

[rodent279]

On 28/08/2019 at 11:44, Pacific231G said:

Interesting Fred. According to Wiki the locos built by NBL during WW1 were among those that basically became SNCF 3-231C though some may have acquired later letters in the series depending on mods and rebuilds. Apparently NBL actually built 45 of these locos but five of those were to replace locos lost at sea following a U-boat attack. Sadly only one of the Etat Pacifics 3-231G558 seems to have survived and that was built in Nantes by Batignolles in 1922. 

 

As well as the 231s and 140Cs I knew that NBL also built 50 of the 170 PO 230s that became SNCF 4-230G  (3-230K for those that had been moved to the Etat) As with the Etat Pacifics and 140Cs  (they built 215 from a class totalling 340) , this order was the result of WW1 limiting loco production in France. 

Of the seven 140Cs that appear to have survived, in states ranging from plinthed to active, all were built by North British. 

That's interesting, I never knew that British builders built so extensively to French & German designs.

How were the French and German design locos delivered to the nearest sea port? By rail? That would be a fantastic photo-a French or German outline loco on UK rails. I know they are out of UK loading gauge, but in those days the railway companies dealt with out of gauge loads much frequently than now.

[doctor quinn]

North British used road to deliver locos to Glasgow docks as the first picture on this page shows https://libcat.csglasgow.org/web/arena/nbl

[brack]

Road transport to docks for essentially complete locos was generally the norm, but this was easier for some builders than others. There are photos of locos for Nigeria on pickfords scammel transporters going from hunslet in leeds to birkenhead, whilst identical locos for south African industry are recorded as being dismantled for shipment and reerected on arrival, so presumably it would depend on what the purchaser had chosen or required. The leeds builders and bagnall had more obvious challenges in dock access than the big Glasgow, newcastle and manchester (the ship canal gives good access) builders, but unless the loco was small enough to fit in or on a wagon, shipped in small pieces (even a dismantled loco's frames may still be too wide across the cylinders) or standard gauge and small enough to fit the british loading gauge (not that common) it usually would be taken by road to the docks, and not always to the closest docks - I know of bagnall malayan metre gauge 062t shipped at tilbury docks after road transport there.

Having said that theres a photo of a pair of 242t for Egypt being shunted at Stafford by a jinty that were heading to birkenhead on their own wheels (this being the easiest and most economic method of delivery where possible), but since standard gauge (and many metre/3'6" gauge) railways abroad generally had far more generous loading gauges than ours, usually you're looking at a big pickfords trailer.

[EddieB]

On 28/08/2019 at 11:44, Pacific231G said:

Interesting Fred. According to Wiki the locos built by NBL during WW1 were among those that basically became SNCF 3-231C though some may have acquired later letters in the series depending on mods and rebuilds. Apparently NBL actually built 45 of these locos but five of those were to replace locos lost at sea following a U-boat attack. Sadly only one of the Etat Pacifics 3-231G558 seems to have survived and that was built in Nantes by Batignolles in 1922. 

 

As well as the 231s and 140Cs I knew that NBL also built 50 of the 170 PO 230s that became SNCF 4-230G  (3-230K for those that had been moved to the Etat) As with the Etat Pacifics and 140Cs  (they built 215 from a class totalling 340) , this order was the result of WW1 limiting loco production in France. 

Of the seven 140Cs that appear to have survived, in states ranging from plinthed to active, all were built by North British. 

On 28/08/2019 at 12:39, sncf231e said:

North British build 40 ETAT pacifics (231-650 till 231-689 from the total series 231-500 till 231-783) after an order in 1915, since French orders for French builders could not be finished because of the war. They were delivered from summer 1916 - spring 1917. Later the whole series was renumbered to 3-231 C 501 till 3-231 C 783. They were renumbered twice by the SNCF, the new number depending on the changes that were made to each locomotive, most became 231D, some became 231H, others 231C, F or G (there is a full table in the La Vie du Rail book Les Pacific Regionales). Like all other ETAT  pacifics the North British ones ended their life in the fifties and sixties. One ETAT pacific is still running, but not a North British build one.

Regards

Fred

Numbering/histories are also given in a series of books by John Davies.   A few notes on North British locomotives constructed for France during WW1.

 

Some of the P-O 4-6-0s went to Morocco, whilst one wasn't returned after WWII and went to/stayed in East Germany following partition.

 

There is also another surviving 140C, making eight in total.  140C.38 was built by Vulcan Foundry for Artillerie Lourde sur Voies Ferrées (ALVF) in 1919, becoming a PLM locomotive.

 

 

In addition, North British also built 30 2-8-2Ts for P-O (again several later going to Morocco), but with a further fifty sub-contracted to Fives-Lille (for which North British had allocated their own builder's numbers).  These became SNCF class 141TA.   The sole preserved example (at Mulhouse) is from Fives-Lille production.

 

Finally, among other builders, North British supplied fifteen 600mm gauge Péchot-Bourdon 0-4-4-0T to the French Government in 1915.

 

 

 

[faulcon1]

There's a story about old 78 when on the plinth at the old Enfield loco depot that some wag put it's number on the board for engines to be lit up. Apparently old 78 was lit up but only very briefly. Numerous birds flew out of the chimney most annoyed they'd been smoked out whilst someone got a fire hose and dowsed the fire.  

[LMS Bess]

Hullo folks. 

 

Vaguely considering making something based on 1940s Palestine Railways or Egyptian State Railways (in either case it's an excuse to use an 8F and it's a tribute to my gran who had to do with SOE in the ME). Wanted to pick your brains about trackside industries (because I like intricate stations and urban scenes but that'd be a job of work). 

 

I've been getting going on the research. There's a useful magazine and in-depth PhD thesis about Palestine railways which mentions rail-served limestone quarries, and I found an old map of Cairo in the 40s showing where the rails went which included reference to a 'quarry line' - but the map cut off before we got to the quarry itself.  

 

Struggling to find more info than this. (It doesn't help that the outgoing British administration and incoming new administration in both cases were quite keen on burning paperwork and other records.) Does anyone have any scraps of info about limestone quarry operations in these regions in the 40s?

 

Failing that, anything at all to do with rail-served industries in the region will be appreciated! I assume the railways running out to Oases in Egypt might have been to transport dates (Oases are basically date palm plantations). 

 

Oh yes and there was a reference to a 13t wagon being used a lot in these contexts - am I right in thinking this is the same as the 13t plank-sided open wagon used in the UK? I hope so because you can get the chassis for this in N gauge to build wagon yrself, and I'm a skinflint.  

[Lovemymodelling]

I don’t know if this photo has appeared on here as yet but this photo was in my village Facebook this weeks shows and electric loco on delivery on what is now the A62 between Oldham and Huddersfield on Saddleworth moor this was taken just outside Delph which was then in Yorkshire now Geeater Manchester I’m not sure but is it an Australian electric loco?

[russ p]

13 minutes ago, Lovemymodelling said:

I don’t know if this photo has appeared on here as yet but this photo was in my village Facebook this weeks shows and electric loco on delivery on what is now the A62 between Oldham and Huddersfield on Saddleworth moor this was taken just outside Delph which was then in Yorkshire now Geeater Manchester I’m not sure but is it an Australian electric loco?

 

Is that one of the Stockton-on-Tees built metrovics? 

[EddieB]

No, as Lovemymodelling suggests, it’s a class 46 electric for the New South Wales Government Railways.

[russ p]

12 minutes ago, EddieB said:

No, as Lovemymodelling suggests, it’s a class 46 electric for the New South Wales Government Railways.

 

I didn't mean a co-bo they also built electrics for Australia there.

I wonder whether it was been take over the pennines for further work at another plant or export from the Merseyside docks? Surely Middlesbrough would have been more convenient for export 

[EddieB]

Sorry for 

15 minutes ago, russ p said:

 

I didn't mean a co-bo they also built electrics for Australia there.

I wonder whether it was been take over the pennines for further work at another plant or export from the Merseyside docks? Surely Middlesbrough would have been more convenient for export 

Sorry for any confusion, for some reason I thought you were referring to the recent posting of a WAGR X class in a similar location posted in Wheeltappers.  My apologies.

[russ p]

Just now, EddieB said:

Sorry for 

Sorry for any confusion, for some reason I thought you were referring to the recent posting of a WAGR X class in a similar location posted in Wheeltappers.  My apologies.

 

Absolutely fine Eddie not a problem at all.

 

Does seem to be in an odd place though,  obviously back then the equipment for moving locos by road was far more primitive than what they have now. Mind the roads were also fairly primitive so manoeuvring them must have been hell

[Lovemymodelling]

49 minutes ago, russ p said:

 

Absolutely fine Eddie not a problem at all.

 

Does seem to be in an odd place though,  obviously back then the equipment for moving locos by road was far more primitive than what they have now. Mind the roads were also fairly primitive so manoeuvring them must have been hell

The truck looks like an M19 ex US army tank transporter I think the loco is going towards Manchester 

[Lovemymodelling]

Same location today 

[Chen Melling]

On 30/08/2020 at 13:17, LMS Bess said:

Hullo folks. 

 

Vaguely considering making something based on 1940s Palestine Railways or Egyptian State Railways (in either case it's an excuse to use an 8F and it's a tribute to my gran who had to do with SOE in the ME). Wanted to pick your brains about trackside industries (because I like intricate stations and urban scenes but that'd be a job of work). 

 

I've been getting going on the research. There's a useful magazine and in-depth PhD thesis about Palestine railways which mentions rail-served limestone quarries, and I found an old map of Cairo in the 40s showing where the rails went which included reference to a 'quarry line' - but the map cut off before we got to the quarry itself.  

 

Struggling to find more info than this. (It doesn't help that the outgoing British administration and incoming new administration in both cases were quite keen on burning paperwork and other records.) Does anyone have any scraps of info about limestone quarry operations in these regions in the 40s?

 

Failing that, anything at all to do with rail-served industries in the region will be appreciated! I assume the railways running out to Oases in Egypt might have been to transport dates (Oases are basically date palm plantations). 

 

Oh yes and there was a reference to a 13t wagon being used a lot in these contexts - am I right in thinking this is the same as the 13t plank-sided open wagon used in the UK? I hope so because you can get the chassis for this in N gauge to build wagon yrself, and I'm a skinflint.  

LMS Bess, 

 

There is actually quite a lot of information available on the Palestine Railways, whether in published or archival form. I suppose it won't be very helpful to suggest that you come visit the Israel Railway Museum, of which I am currently the head, and peruse our extensive archives and library. However, I would be very glad to share any information available, whether on these pages or directly by email: museum@rail.co.il

 

I also collect information about Egyptian and other Near-East railways, but there is much less published or even archival information available.

 

I suppose you already heard of Rabbi Dr. Walter Rothschild and his magazine HaRakevet (mostly available online here: http://www.harakevetmagazine.com/), who also wrote the most relevant PhD. Other English language books include:

The Railways of Palestine and Israel by Paul Cotterell (Tourret Publishing, 1984)

Make Straight the Way by Paul Cotterell (Israel Railways, 2009)

Middle East Railways by Hugh Hughes (Continental Railway Circle, 1981)

Allied military locomotives of the Second World War by  R. Tourret (Tourret Publishing, 1995)

 

I personally have been dreaming of modelling local subjects since childhood, but have been daunted not only by relative-scarcity of RTR models and kits but also by the H0/OO conundrum. This is because for most of the 20th century the railways of this country had a mixture of British, American and Continental rolling stock. 

 

The 13t opens are of the standard MoS / WD (War Department) WWII 5-plank type - the picture below, taken at Tel Aviv Station in June, 1944 shows a rake of opens, apparently loaded with ballast. The 7-plank ones lettered PR are of the WWI MoM / WD 12t type, of which c. 1000 examples entered PR ownership, being around half the total stock at the time. (Photo by Zoltan Kluger

 

There were indeed quite a few rail-served quarries and various other industries and construction sites in Palestine during the Mandate period. The only stndard-gauge operations with its own locomotives before WWII were the Haifa Harbour Works Dperatment and the related Jaffa Port upgrade project (which was isolated from the railways but had an internal SG line). The HHWD opened large qurries in Athlit and shipped the stone to Haifa by rail. The below photo (from the Library of Congress' Matson Collection) shows one of the HHWD group of Hunslet 14" 0-6-0ST, this one being No. 6 of the outside-cylindered batch. Some of these were later sold to the War Depratment and operated some of their many rail-served depots in the region during WWII.

 

 

 

[Chen Melling]

On 30/08/2020 at 13:17, LMS Bess said:

Hullo folks. 

 

Vaguely considering making something based on 1940s Palestine Railways or Egyptian State Railways (in either case it's an excuse to use an 8F and it's a tribute to my gran who had to do with SOE in the ME). Wanted to pick your brains about trackside industries (because I like intricate stations and urban scenes but that'd be a job of work). 

 

I've been getting going on the research. There's a useful magazine and in-depth PhD thesis about Palestine railways which mentions rail-served limestone quarries, and I found an old map of Cairo in the 40s showing where the rails went which included reference to a 'quarry line' - but the map cut off before we got to the quarry itself.  

 

Struggling to find more info than this. (It doesn't help that the outgoing British administration and incoming new administration in both cases were quite keen on burning paperwork and other records.) Does anyone have any scraps of info about limestone quarry operations in these regions in the 40s?

 

Failing that, anything at all to do with rail-served industries in the region will be appreciated! I assume the railways running out to Oases in Egypt might have been to transport dates (Oases are basically date palm plantations). 

 

Oh yes and there was a reference to a 13t wagon being used a lot in these contexts - am I right in thinking this is the same as the 13t plank-sided open wagon used in the UK? I hope so because you can get the chassis for this in N gauge to build wagon yrself, and I'm a skinflint.  

 

Some of the LMS Stanier 8Fs brought to Palestine by the War Department during WW2 were hired by the Palestine Railways, and later sold to them, 23 eventually entering Israel Railways stock in 1948. Here they rubbed shoulders with PR locos as well as various other types brought by the military authorities, of which you may be familiar with the "ROD" O4 2-8-0 type and "USA" 0-6-0T shunters. Below are two 1940s photos by K.R.M. Cameron, one showing an 8F entering Jaffa Station, where a military locomotive workshop was established, and an ROD at the nearby Tel Aviv station.
By the way, both these locations are, in my opinion, worthy of modelling, the latter named being my personal favourite.

[LMS Bess]

2 hours ago, Chen Melling said:

 

Some of the LMS Stanier 8Fs brought to Palestine by the War Department during WW2 were hired by the Palestine Railways, and later sold to them, 23 eventually entering Israel Railways stock in 1948. Here they rubbed shoulders with PR locos as well as various other types brought by the military authorities, of which you may be familiar with the "ROD" O4 2-8-0 type and "USA" 0-6-0T shunters. Below are two 1940s photos by K.R.M. Cameron, one showing an 8F entering Jaffa Station, where a military locomotive workshop was established, and an ROD at the nearby Tel Aviv station.
By the way, both these locations are, in my opinion, worthy of modelling, the latter named being my personal favourite.

 

Chen, many thanks, this is amazing info and photographs. 

 

I am always up for visiting railway museums and yours is on a list I was dreaming about and then Covid happened. Perhaps on the other side. (My grandmother used to tell me never to travel to the middle east 'In case they recognise the face' but I think this was mostly in jest.) 

 

My other thread on here is where I muddle through fixing up a dublo gauge 0-6-0 chassis, assisted by patient rmweb posters, so I think if I do anything with the PR project it'll be 0-6-0 based, and I'll probably bash together a body shell of some sort. It has the wrong running gear for an American style tank but I can probably ignore this. (Did you say there was also a Hunslet?) 

 

To that end, I have a few more Qs about the limestone quarry scene at Athlit: 

 

- is the rolling stock we see in the picture special to that project, and did it ever involve the British outline open wagons? 

 

- limestone loading - by mechanical shovel (if that's what the machinery in the background is) or by hand? And would it tend to be loaded in cut squares or rough debris form? 

 

- the fellas up on the cliff with what looks like climbing gear - they presumably are either chipping out the limestone or lining the quarry with explosive? 

 

- is there a map or failing that a standard formula for the arrangement of the quarry sidings? 

 

Cheers! 

 

 

[sir douglas]

there is a flickr account called Historical railway images, some pages back one of his photos was shared. a gold mine of railway photos from all around the world and works photos from UK, european and US builders

https://www.flickr.com/photos/124446949@N06/

 

you can search the user by first clicking on the magnifying glass icon just above the top photo then use by the search box at the top, if you go straight to the search box it will search entire flickr not just this user

 

if you search Palestine, it has 342 results

https://www.flickr.com/search/?user_id=124446949%40N06&view_all=1&text=palestine

[Chen Melling]

15 hours ago, LMS Bess said:

 

Chen, many thanks, this is amazing info and photographs. 

 

I am always up for visiting railway museums and yours is on a list I was dreaming about and then Covid happened. Perhaps on the other side. (My grandmother used to tell me never to travel to the middle east 'In case they recognise the face' but I think this was mostly in jest.) 

 

My other thread on here is where I muddle through fixing up a dublo gauge 0-6-0 chassis, assisted by patient rmweb posters, so I think if I do anything with the PR project it'll be 0-6-0 based, and I'll probably bash together a body shell of some sort. It has the wrong running gear for an American style tank but I can probably ignore this. (Did you say there was also a Hunslet?) 

 

To that end, I have a few more Qs about the limestone quarry scene at Athlit: 

 

- is the rolling stock we see in the picture special to that project, and did it ever involve the British outline open wagons? 

 

- limestone loading - by mechanical shovel (if that's what the machinery in the background is) or by hand? And would it tend to be loaded in cut squares or rough debris form? 

 

- the fellas up on the cliff with what looks like climbing gear - they presumably are either chipping out the limestone or lining the quarry with explosive? 

 

- is there a map or failing that a standard formula for the arrangement of the quarry sidings? 

 

Cheers! 

 

 

 

Well, for starters, Israel has such a diverse population genetics-wise, no face really (or dress-code!) really stands out here. I, myself, am a mixture of 25% (gentile) Mancunian, 25% (Jewish) Egyptian and 50% various central and Eastern european nations, though 100% born and raised here.

 

Palestine Railways had 3 main types of SG 0-6-0s, though one of them, the LSWR Adams 0395, did not survive long enough to meet 8Fs in action. The two others are a quartet of former Inland Waterways & Docks Dept. (IWD) Manning Wardle 0-6-0ST '17" Specials' left from WWI, and 11 Nasmyth Wilson 0-6-0Ts purchased in several batches in the second half of the 1930s. The USA tanks, which you may know from the Southern Railway, were mostly operated by the British Army, but a couple were hired to PR and later purchased by them. These are available in OO from Bachmann: http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/60094/KMR-101-Bachmann-USA-0-6-0T-Steam-Locomotive-number-1968 (and also in H0, from Ree Models)

Below are representative photos of each main 1940s shunter type and a corresponding (early 1950s) weight diagram. We have more pictures, of course, and should you wish to model the Nasmyth tanks, we have the entire original engineering drawings set.