Pre-nationalisation coach wheels - with holes in!

[YK 50A]

Hi,

 

I am going through a process of re-wheeling some of our older rolling stock that has plastic wheels (or plastic bearings). Until a couple of years ago, some of it had spent the previous 35 years in a succession of lofts.

 

I am clear on wheel size and what is required there, and also the fact that some of the older Hornby coach tooling's are out of scale with 12.5mm wheels, etc. As far as wagons go, I have a rule of thumb which I am content with.

 

Hornby have sold their LMS Stanier and Collett coaches (and probably others) with 2 or 3 hole wheels for decades. Ok, they are not particularly accurate anyway, so ho hum, I shouldn't pay too much attention. However, their 12 wheeler (an old Airfix/Dapol tooling, but sold as a premium product) comes factory fitted with 2 hole wheels. As a spare part, Hornby sell 14.1mm 2 hole and 4 hole metal wheels. What use are they other than for coaches? Every resource I can find on RMweb suggests that all coaches (perhaps apart from 4 and 6 wheelers) would have had solid disk wheels. Before I go and order 20 pairs of 12.5mm and 20 pairs of 14.1mm wheels for our LMS and GWR origin coaches, can anyone tell me whether some LMS and GWR coaching stock might have wheels with holes in.

 

Cheers,

 

Alun

Edited March 20, 2013 by alunhughes

[kevinlms]

You can find a variety of wheel types here.

 

http://www.alangibsonworkshop.com/Catalogue.pdf Page 4.

 

Pre-group & early grouping coaches used mainly Mansell (wooden centred) wheels @ 3'7 1/2" diameter. Later they used plain disc (with 2 small holes - as per photo), which continued into MK1 coaches.

 

MK2 and beyond used plain disc @ 3' 1 1/2" diameter.

 

MK3 started to use Disc braked wheels @ 3' 1 1/2" diameter.

 

Special vehicles used various wheels as described in the list.

 

Hope this helps.

 

[YK 50A]

You can find a variety of wheel types here.

 

http://www.alangibsonworkshop.com/Catalogue.pdf Page 4.

 

Pre-group & early grouping coaches used mainly Mansell (wooden centred) wheels @ 3'7 1/2" diameter. Later they used plain disc (with 2 small holes - as per photo), which continued into MK1 coaches.

 

MK2 and beyond used plain disc @ 3' 1 1/2" diameter.

 

MK3 started to use Disc braked wheels @ 3' 1 1/2" diameter.

 

Special vehicles used various wheels as described in the list.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Thanks,

 

The Mansell clarification is useful.  Also, I didn't realise that BR Mk1 bogies could have 2 hole wheel-sets.  Investigating that further (BR Mk1 Coaches, Keith Parkin), I have found a picture of a prototype Wegmann bogie which appears to have 4 hole wheels, and an early B4 with 2 hole wheels.  Worth remembering though that wheel size was based on bogie, so a Mk1 with B4/B5 bogies would have 3' 1" wheels (as per Mk2).

 

Since my original post, I have found some reference to Pullman Cars and LMS origin Porthole stock having 4 hole wheels.  And also that the out of scale 3 hole coach wheels found on a number of Hornby models are simply wrong and 3 hole wheels were rarely if ever fitted to coaches.  Solid disk wheels would make them less inaccurate as the wheels on the real thing would have been replaced when life expired.

 

Does anyone concur or otherwise?

 

Alun

Edited March 21, 2013 by alunhughes

[Il Grifone]

Coach wheels usually had two small holes on a diameter of the wheel. I am not aware of other variations (apart from Mansell and spoked) and ignoring the later plain disc and disc brake types.

 

The only 4 hole wheels I know of were the precursors of the 3 hole wagon type (the MR used them IIRC). Unless someone knows that the type fitted to Hornby Pullmans are in fact correct????

[YK 50A]

Coach wheels usually had two small holes on a diameter of the wheel. I am not aware of other variations (apart from Mansell and spoked) and ignoring the later plain disc and disc brake types.

 

The only 4 hole wheels I know of were the precursors of the 3 hole wagon type (the MR used them IIRC). Unless someone knows that the type fitted to Hornby Pullmans are in fact correct????

 

I think I've got it now, anomalies and exceptions aside, and until someone proves me wrong.

 

In the main, 2 hole wheels on coaches became the norm in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.  As I suspected, the Pullman Car Company used 4 hole wheels, so the Hornby Pullman's are probably correct.  I wonder if 4 hole wheels were common in the US.  The Pullman's were not alone though, as the Caledonian used 4 hole wheels, and post-nationalisation LMS origin Porthole stock had them too.  These coaches were very similar to the Stanier stock - portholes and wheel holes and roof holes and window holes aside.    I'm guessing there must be other exceptions and interchanging wheelsets at overhauls and the like.

 

With regard to BR Mk1's, it appears that many coaches were built with 2 hole wheels (BR1, BR2 and Commonwealth bogies) and they were interchangeable with appropriate solid disk wheels.  Also, check this picture out.  It's WCR Mk1 No. 21266 - I think all WCR Mk1's are fitted with Commonwealth bogies.  I would say that the wheelset nearest to the camera has 4 holes!

 

Alun

 

**EDIT**  wholes and holes

Edited March 22, 2013 by alunhughes

[YK 50A]

Clearly a riveting subject!  No pun, etc, etc, etc...

 

I've decided to start taking pics of BR era coach wheels when I'm out and about with my offspring.  They are clearly delighted.  We started out at the NRM yesterday - unfortunately, not only did I forget my SLR, but much of the relevant stock is not at York, is in storage or the underframes are hidden in the Station Hall.  What was interesting (to me), bearing in mind the contradictory information out there, is that Mk1 BG Valiant (on Commonwealth bogies) has 7 wheels with 4 holes and 1 solid disk wheel (dynamo axle).

 

In the unlikely event anyone is interested, take a look here.  I will be adding pics as and when.

 

Alun

[Il Grifone]

On the contrary - very interesting!

 

There is no hard and fast rule AFAIK. When a wheel change was needed they just took the next one of the correct diameter* from stock.

With wagons, it was possible to find examples with one set spoked and the other three hole.

 

* Even this varied slightly due to wear.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Il Grifone

[Young60]

Hi All.

Am just returning to the hobby and found these posts. Wonder if anyone still monitors them and would be helpful enough to reply !

My query is this. I've bought some second-hand Hornby LMS coaches - R434, R474. I've found some of them have mixed wheels, spoked ones too. I've asked some spares shops - over internet, about replacements so that I bring them all to the same standard and I was told Hornby R8097 are a 'direct replacement'. However, these are 3-holed disc. Can anyone confirm these are correct, or should I go for R8096 which are full disc? You realise I'm a bit confused. The wheels I have in plastic are 14mm on the axel-inside-wheels, 12.6mm diameter and 26mm from one axle-point to the other.

Hope you can help.

BTW, I'm trying to model around the '40s era.

Thanks,

Adrian

[Nearholmer]

Why, did coach wheels have any holes in them at all?

 

Something to do with the way tyres were turned?

 

I ask, because surely they were stress concentrators.

 

K

Edited July 2, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Fat Controller]

Why, did coach wheels have any holes in them at all?

 

Something to do with the way tyres were turned?

 

I ask, because surely they were stress concentrators.

 

K

Perhaps to attach balance weights?

[31A]

To allow them to be lifted by hoists?

[asmay2002]

Why, did coach wheels have any holes in them at all?

 

Something to do with the way tyres were turned?

 

I ask, because surely they were stress concentrators.

 

K

So you can pick them up with a crane.

[YK 50A]

Hi All.

Am just returning to the hobby and found these posts. Wonder if anyone still monitors them and would be helpful enough to reply !

My query is this. I've bought some second-hand Hornby LMS coaches - R434, R474. I've found some of them have mixed wheels, spoked ones too. I've asked some spares shops - over internet, about replacements so that I bring them all to the same standard and I was told Hornby R8097 are a 'direct replacement'. However, these are 3-holed disc. Can anyone confirm these are correct, or should I go for R8096 which are full disc? You realise I'm a bit confused. The wheels I have in plastic are 14mm on the axel-inside-wheels, 12.6mm diameter and 26mm from one axle-point to the other.

Hope you can help.

BTW, I'm trying to model around the '40s era.

Thanks,

Adrian

 

Hi Adrian,

 

I know a bit more about the subject than when I originally asked the question (more than 4 years ago). 

 

My son has a rake of these.  They have under-scale wheels (should be 14mm) and as far as I know, 12.5mm wheels aren't available in 2 hole and 4 hole varieties.  3 hole wheels would have been for trucks and when I changed the original plastic wheels for metal, I ended up using solid disk wheels on the basis that your eyes aren't going to be drawn to them and are the least non-prototypical, if you follow.  The real things would have most likely been fitted with 4 whole wheels when new, but that could have changed as wheels and wheelsets were changed.

 

You might be interested in my gallery...  https://www.flickr.com/photos/alunhughes/albums/72157633073536014

 

Alun

[ejstubbs]

The real things would have most likely been fitted with 4 whole wheels when new

 

I would have thought that eight whole wheels would have given the best ride quality.

 

I'll get me coat...

Edited July 2, 2017 by ejstubbs

[K14]

Why, did coach wheels have any holes in them at all?

 

Something to do with the way tyres were turned?

 

I ask, because surely they were stress concentrators.

 

K

 

They act as locating holes for the 'dogs' that hold the wheelset in the lathe.

 

This video of a set of 257 Squadron's drivers being profiled at Buckfastleigh shows the principle:—

 

 

Balance weights on coach wheels are fitted up against the rim on the inside face & held in place by a couple of bolts about 3" or 4" apart.

The second & third photos on this page show this feature:—

 

http://nnrailway.blogspot.co.uk/2016/07/july-news-part-3.html

 

Wheelsets are usually lifted by wrapping a strop around the axle or by using a spreader bar under the rims.

 

Pete S.

Edited July 2, 2017 by K14

[Young60]

Hi Adrian,

 

I know a bit more about the subject than when I originally asked the question (more than 4 years ago). 

 

My son has a rake of these.  They have under-scale wheels (should be 14mm) and as far as I know, 12.5mm wheels aren't available in 2 hole and 4 hole varieties.  3 hole wheels would have been for trucks and when I changed the original plastic wheels for metal, I ended up using solid disk wheels on the basis that your eyes aren't going to be drawn to them and are the least non-prototypical, if you follow.  The real things would have most likely been fitted with 4 whole wheels when new, but that could have changed as wheels and wheelsets were changed.

 

You might be interested in my gallery...  https://www.flickr.com/photos/alunhughes/albums/72157633073536014

 

Alun

Hi Alun many thanks. Yes, saw your gallery. Many different options but as you say, 4-hole seem prevalent. Given that some of the coaches I have seem to have unchanged wheels and these were disc, I'll look to obtain the disc metal ones as replacement.

Thanks all again.

BTW, wonderful to learn why the wheels had holes, too.

Adrian

[Nearholmer]

K14

 

Makes sense, that was rather what I thought.

 

Poses the question of how the tyres on Mansell wheels were turned, if indeed they were.

 

I've seen centreless wheel-lathes in action, ditto slightly older centred ones, turning plain disc wheels, and I can't for the life of me remember how torque was transmitted to the wheelsets ........

 

Kevin

Edited July 2, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Metropolitan H]

K14

 

Makes sense, that was rather what I thought.

 

Poses the question of how the tyres on Mansell wheels were turned, if indeed they were.

 

I've seen centreless wheel-lathes in action, ditto slightly older centred ones, turning plain disc wheels, and I can't for the life of me remember how torque was transmitted to the wheelsets ........

 

Kevin

Mansell and other disc wheels all have a lip about 1/2 inch deep under the edge of the tyre - on the outside face - which is gripped by what are in effect a set of "inside" jaws on a face-plate to transmit the drive. At least they were on all the LU wheel lathes (apart of course from the Underfloor lathes when the drive comes from the rollers supporting the tyre with adhesion supplied by a hold-down dog acting on the axlebox.

 

I'll explain further when we meet later in the week.

 

CH

[Young60]

Hi Adrian,

 

I know a bit more about the subject than when I originally asked the question (more than 4 years ago). 

 

My son has a rake of these.  They have under-scale wheels (should be 14mm) and as far as I know, 12.5mm wheels aren't available in 2 hole and 4 hole varieties.  3 hole wheels would have been for trucks and when I changed the original plastic wheels for metal, I ended up using solid disk wheels on the basis that your eyes aren't going to be drawn to them and are the least non-prototypical, if you follow.  The real things would have most likely been fitted with 4 whole wheels when new, but that could have changed as wheels and wheelsets were changed.

 

You might be interested in my gallery...  https://www.flickr.com/photos/alunhughes/albums/72157633073536014

 

Alun

Hi Alun, all. Many thanks. I decided on having the R8096. My reason is that the wheel size I have today on the rake of R434 and R474 coaches is per the details in my post of 2nd July, ie the diameter is 12.5mm. Please correct me, I don't know if the bogie box would take the 14.1mm. Spares shops have tried telling me to take the R8218 set, but these are the 14.1.. so am I correct do you think if I insist on the R8096 12.5mm, or are the 14.1mm R8218 just as good? How about any matching up between heights of different coaches as regards issues with coupling if some are 12.5 others are 14.1 diameter?

Hope you can help cos I need to buy quite a few sets and since I live outside Uk, postage come high!

The attached photos show what I have today

Thanks and regards to all

Adrian

[YK 50A]

Hi Alun, all. Many thanks. I decided on having the R8096. My reason is that the wheel size I have today on the rake of R434 and R474 coaches is per the details in my post of 2nd July, ie the diameter is 12.5mm. Please correct me, I don't know if the bogie box would take the 14.1mm. Spares shops have tried telling me to take the R8218 set, but these are the 14.1.. so am I correct do you think if I insist on the R8096 12.5mm, or are the 14.1mm R8218 just as good? How about any matching up between heights of different coaches as regards issues with coupling if some are 12.5 others are 14.1 diameter?

Hope you can help cos I need to buy quite a few sets and since I live outside Uk, postage come high!

The attached photos show what I have today

Thanks and regards to all

Adrian20170626_232444.jpg20170626_232843.jpg20170513_223501.jpg

 

Hi,

 

In my experience, stick to 12.5mm wheels.  I can't remember for sure, but I believe the 14.1mm wheels will foul the underframe and bogie, etc. and in any case, the coaches already ride high and bigger wheels will increase the height.

 

Have a look at this picture of my son's Hornby next to my Airfix on his then train set...  https://flic.kr/p/efk4p6

 

You could go to the effort of replacing the bogies, but if you're looking for prototypical realism, there are better models to butcher.

 

Alun

[Young60]

Hi Alun. Many thanks.

All, very helpful. Managing to discuss with all of you, helps to no end.

Regards

Adrian