A Nod To Brent - a friendly thread, filled with frivolity, cream teas and pasties. Longing for the happy days in the South Hams 1947.

[County of Yorkshire]

Emphatically, I vote for 1.

 

As others have said, this is the only way this particular train is going to leave the station!

 

I would buy multiples of each, though especially the TK and BG. 

 

CoY

[john dew]

Option 1

 

I would definitely buy one of each

 

Thank you Brian and congratulations for drafting such a concise and persuasive argument

 

Best wishes

[St Enodoc]

1.

 

I understand the logic of the selection although I might not buy all the types. I'd definitely buy one or more K22s though.

 

Regarding liveries, might we have seen the K22s in plain crimson or even plain maroon too?

[Limpley Stoker]

Thank you for your hard work on this one, Brian

 

I support option 1:  You know in makes sense !

 

 

 

 

[1466]

Enthusiastically vote for Option 1 and thanks for a well thought out rationale . 

[Miss Prism]

Option 1 as well from me. I think the mini-selection is a sensible one.

 

[88C]

Option  1 for me as well.

 

Brian

[A Murphy]

Option 1 for me too. A brake composite would be great as well.

 

Best wishes and thanks. 

 

[M.I.B]

Option 1 for me on the poll please

 

HOWEVER

 

The K22 would be the last item purchased - there are still plenty of K22 kits out there either ready to make or well made and cheap on Ebay.  Both brass and plastic.  I have enough K22s to suit my needs for now, built to an acceptable standard.

[Mulgabill]

Option 1 for me, everything on Helstonish is a "cartoon"!

 

TONY

[magpac]

And option 1 for me too.

[BMacdermott]

14 hours ago, mdvle said:

Option 1.

This is the only way Toplights will get done - someone needs to choose a representative sample that is viable, which you have done, and say here is what you get.

Worse case is we get a selection of 4 Toplights to use.

Best case (perhaps unlikely) is that they sell so well that it makes further coaches viable.

So thanks for doing the work to come up with the 4 and present it.

 

Hello mdvle

 

Many thanks.

 

As part of the research, we went through as many threads and postings as we could find. Here's one your posts dated 29.10.20...

 

If anyone really wants to try and attempt to get someone to make Toplights they (or a small group perhaps) need to create a new poll where the variety of Toplights is looked at carefully and a subset is chosen for the ability to hopefully share tooling yet at the same time offer a variety of types to be useful in making up trains and thus sell reasonably well - and at a reasonable price given the tooling costs…

 

Your wish was our command!

 

Brian

[BMacdermott]

9 hours ago, john dew said:

Option 1

 

I would definitely buy one of each

Thank you Brian and congratulations for drafting such a concise and persuasive argument

Best wishes

 

Hello John

 

Many thanks for the kind comments.

 

Although I am 'the voice' here, the case would not be possible without the strong and valued support of my colleagues John, Chris and Ian. I keep them very busy with questions!

 

Brian

[Denbridge]

1. for me. I feel it is a good compromise with the complexity of the subject. Personally i would pick an earlier livery option, but if it was the only way to get toplights, i would settle for the earliest option you suggest.

[7802]

More than happy to vote for option 1. Thanks for all of the teams efforts to continue with these polls and I very much hope that the manufacturers take note. The economics of producing models of such a wide ranging group of prototypes (So much for Great Western standardisation) obviously mean that compromises have to be made. Recently it seems as though the clamour for perfection is preventing the modelling community from getting something that, 10-15 years ago, would have been lauded as the best thing since sliced bread. For example, as far as I understand it, very few of the sunshine stock models produced by Bachmann have been strictly accurate to the specific prototype they claim to portray, but they still sell.

Despite most toplights having been withdrawn by my chosen era I would certainly look to get a few that could be explained as summer Saturday strengtheners pressed into service.

[Siberian Snooper]

Option 1 with the proviso of the earlier liveries on Lake and or faux panelling, if they  are produced in both liveries I will definitely have at least one of each and possibly several of each. 

 

Thanks for the opportunity to poll.

 

 

[Neal Ball]

21 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

GWR 00 Rolling Stock Mini-Poll No.9:                                   

The Case for a Select Few Steel Panelled Gangwayed Toplights                                                  

 

Hello everyone

 

Welcome to the ninth in our series of GWR 00 Rolling Stock Mini-Polls. I am running them here with my friends, John Lewis, Chris Knowles-Thomas and Ian Taylor on Rob’s behalf.

 

The Toplights encompassed a multitude of diagrams with many facets and ‘incarnations’ making them a vexed modelling subject. We gather that a manufacturer ‘had them on their radar’ but dropped out.

 

However, this Mini-Poll aims to get a select few of these highly popular and attractive coaches back on the agenda.

 

When you have read our case, all you need to do at the end is to vote either in favour or against! We believe this is the only way to come to a pragmatic conclusion. It worked well with the TPO selection.

 

Your Mini-Poll Team suggests 56ft 11¼in Steel Panelled Gangwayed Toplights:

• Diag.C32 Third
• Diag.D56 Brake Third
• Diag.E98 Composite
• Diag.K22 Passenger Brake Van

Although a First and Brake Compo would be desirable, all Toplight Gangwayed Firsts were 70ft long and there wasn’t a steel panelled BCK of our suggested length. (We deal with Catering in a future Mini-Poll.)

 

Our reasoning for the four suggested types is…

 

Third to Diag.C32:

• Believed to have had the non-adjustable angle steel trusses. 
• Had 9ft fishbelly bogies, but some had different bogies later (eg W2578W with 9ft American).
• No.3919 lasted to 1960.
• Some went to Camping Coaches and Departmental Stock later, giving potential for modellers to adapt coaches or for a manufacturer to ‘extend the range’.
• Crucially, there is a beautifully preserved Diag.C32 example at SVR (with others elsewhere).

Link: https://www.svrwiki.com/GWR_3930_Full_Third

 

Brake Third to Diag.D56:

• Lot 1247 believed to have had the non-adjustable angle steel trusses. 
• Had 9ft fishbelly bogies.
• No.3773 lasted to November 1960 and No.3780 until June 1961.

Link: http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/Image-Pages/Image_3mm_GWR_Coach2.htm

 

Composite to Diag.E98:

• Sadly, had adjustable Multi-bar truss underframe, but see Rationale for the selection later.
• Had 9ft fishbelly bogies.
• Only six examples built, but that shouldn’t preclude them – there are precedents of one in the model world!
• No.6944 lasted to 1958.

Link: https://rcts.zenfolio.com/coaching-stock/gwr/toplight-stock/hA0EDDCCA#ha0eddcca

 

Passenger Brake Van to Diag.K22

• Had non-adjustable angle steel trusses.
• Sadly, ran on 9ft American equalised bogies, but see Rationale for the selection later.
• The GWR is the only member of the Big Four not having at least one RTR Passenger Brake Van available, so the K22 would plug a wide gap.
• Lasted to 1962, which is a bonus point in favour of the bogies.
• Has been High Polling in The 00 Wishlist Polls since 2013.
• Examples preserved on the SVR; No.261 with 9ft American bogies, but not on No.1145.

Link: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:GWR_diagram_K22_brake_1145_at_Bewdley.JPG

 

Rationale for the selection:

• We believe modellers will accept a compromise. They’d rather have something ‘not dead right’ as opposed to ‘nothing at all’.
• This is borne out by discussions on RMweb threads and what has recently been made, such as the generic pre-Grouping coaches from Hattons and Hornby etc or locos in ‘faux’ liveries.
• However, the case for the K22 9ft American bogie and different underframe for the Composite has a precedent; Hornby makes different underframe and bogie types on the Coronation Scot stock.
• And Hornby compromised to produce GWR Hawksworths in ‘faux’ liveries. Why? High public demand!
• The stock has the advantages of being pretty much a ‘go anywhere’ type and of looking very different to the Bachmann and Hornby Colletts.
• Many modellers and collectors will surely succumb to the stock’s ‘livery eye appeal’.
• The superb Diag.C32 Third at the SVR is a case in point. It will surely help sales and – possibly – the SVR itself. Other preserved examples exist.
• We have started the liveries (following) at 1927/8 as a good average. It would have taken the GWR and BR a number of years to repaint all coaching stock so there will be useful time-frame overlaps.

Supporting notes for the selection:

• There are plenty of suitable RTR locos already available to haul the Toplights.
• Hornby seem to want four livery possibilities for coach ranges – the Toplights offer that.
• In the annual 00 Wishlist Polls since 2013, the Toplights have not only been the most-wanted GWR passenger stock but also the most wanted non-BR stock. They have always been in The Top 20.
• Most outside-framed Diag.O11 Siphon Gs had the 9ft American bogie and some Diag.O22 had them originally.
• Siphon Gs Diag.O33 No.2070 and Diag.O62 No.1332 had them, but it is not known if these were fitted originally or were replacements.
• Both the inside- and outside-framed Siphon Gs have always been High Polling or Top 50.
• The Siphon H also had these 9ft bogies, extending their potential value. Another High Polling type.

Modeller Time-frames (survey on ANTB thread)

The left hand column shows the number of respondents to each. From this, we can see that the ‘optimum period’ is exactly right for the liveries which follow. A number of respondents indicated that they might buy from other periods depending on what stock was available.

19        1923-1938        Includes one respondent modelling 1923-1927; two 1929 only; and one 1936 only.

17        1956-1960s      Includes one respondent modelling 1956 only; one 1957 only; and one 1959 only.

12        1946-1955        Includes one respondent modelling 1947 only; one 1947/8 only; and one 1950 only.

7          1939-1945       

2          1900-1922        Includes one respondent modelling only the Barry Railway.

 

Example choices of liveries based on the above:

1927/8-1934     Brown & Cream separated by single Black line, or Black & Gold lines with                               GWR Twin Cities crest.

1934-1939        'Shirtbutton' monogram. In later years some coaches and Passenger                                       Brake Vans were painted in all over Brown.

1947                  Hawksworth style lined Brown & Cream with sans serif lettering, Orange                                 or coloured crest.

1949                  BR Crimson & Cream, with left hand position Wxxxx numbers.

1951                  BR Crimson & Cream, with right hand position numbers with W suffix.

 

Head to the ballot box now!

 

Vote either 1 or 2 below.

 

1   I support the Mini-Poll Team’s case for Steel Panelled Gangwayed Toplight Thirds, Brake Thirds and Compos as well as the K22 Passenger Brake Van.

 

2   I do not support the Mini-Poll Team’s case and suggest the following…

     We suggest no more than four items with reasons. Less than 200 words please, as per our list!

 

You have until 1700 on Saturday 14 August, with Results expected on Sunday 15 August.

 

I will acknowledge receipt of your vote by the ‘Thx’ button. You can also vote by PM direct to me.

 

Brian (on behalf of John, Chris & Ian)

(Note: These are ‘informal Polls for fun’ on Rob’s thread only and neither RMweb nor The 00 Wishlist Poll Team are specifically involved, apart from Brian, John, Chris and Ian in our ‘personal capacities’.)

 

 

Another excellent poll thanks to @BMacdermott and team.

 

Option 1 is my choice…. Hopefully a manufacturer can then be persuaded.

 

Thanks, Neal

[BMacdermott]

16 minutes ago, Neal Ball said:

Option 1 is my choice…. Hopefully a manufacturer can then be persuaded.

 

Many thanks Neal - appreciated. And we all need to be thankful and grateful to you for the original idea!

 

If the results turn out as positively as we hope, we will ensure at least a couple of makers get a resume of what we all feel.

 

Brian

[BMacdermott]

6 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Option 1 as well from me. I think the mini-selection is a sensible one.

 

Hello Miss Prism

 

If we can please you, we have hope that we can influence a maker!

 

Brian

[The Stationmaster]

Excellent job Brian and Option 1 is the obvious logical conclusion so I fully support it although I would probably only buy a K22 

 

Strange to say but it exactly agrees with a conclusion a couple of us reached in discussion with a manufacturer several years ago after doing considerable research into Toplights and where they could go on the national network, not just the GWR, plus longevity in traffic.   On that occasion they were rejected for a variety of reasons but one problem which always remains with them commercially as r-t-r models is modifications made to the bodywork over the years and manufacturers seem to like to capture as wide a spread as possible of livery options plus they know which market area in terms of period modelled sells the best so the Toplights never became a viable project and never went beyond the early research stage with the manufacturer.

 

The market has, I'm sure, moved on somewhat in the manufacturing area and at a retail price of £60-70+ per vehicle they might well now stand a chance of being viable.  Might well  depend who is reading/following this thread and I know that someone is (but I won't tell  you if he drops me an email ).

 

[BMacdermott]

Many thanks Mike - good to know!

 

Brian

[mdvle]

5 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

As part of the research, we went through as many threads and postings as we could find. Here's one your posts dated 29.10.20...

 

If anyone really wants to try and attempt to get someone to make Toplights they (or a small group perhaps) need to create a new poll where the variety of Toplights is looked at carefully and a subset is chosen for the ability to hopefully share tooling yet at the same time offer a variety of types to be useful in making up trains and thus sell reasonably well - and at a reasonable price given the tooling costs…

 

Your wish was our command!

 

While it would be nice to be able to take credit, all I did was state the obvious next step given that the poll from that thread didn't produce a consensus and thus it would have happened eventually anyway even without that post.

 

So again thanks to you and the others on this poll team for taking the next step and not just putting it into action but extending the criteria to create a better result, along with all the other polls that have been done.

[gwrrob]

9 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 Might well  depend who is reading/following this thread and I know that someone is (but I won't tell  you if he drops me an email ).

 

 

If Sonic Models can announce a 4mm model of the Robinson LNER A5, then we have every chance. 

[The Stationmaster]

6 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

 

If Sonic Models can announce a 4mm model of the Robinson LNER A5, then we have every chance. 

I'm not so sure about that Rob.  I would have thought several of the big pre-group tank engine designs taken into the LNER were something of an open goal for a left field motive power choice so not quite the same thing as going for coaches where development costs are also high but retail prices are lower than for locos so the overall margin is much tighter.  

[Bazza]

Hi Brian, excellent poll reasoning, and Option 1 definitely gets my vote.

Bazza