A Nod To Brent - a friendly thread, filled with frivolity, cream teas and pasties. Longing for the happy days in the South Hams 1947.

[Dunsignalling]

14 hours ago, TrevorP1 said:

Interesting point. Nowadays manufacturers don’t give us one generic roof or underframe, each has different detail according to prototype. So with that in mind a millimetres extra length on mould X compared to mould Y shouldn’t make much difference to the machining processes.

 

Or am I talking rubbish? 

Not rubbish, but things aren't quite as rosy as you suggest. Whilst Bachmann made a 60' underframe for their Porthole stock, enabling the inclusion of a CK, Hornby did not do likewise for their Period III Staniers, so couldn't.

 

Because most LMS/LMR trains included at least one of them, it's necessary to mix-and match using Bachmann Porthole CKs (which are strictly BR coaches), old Airfix composites, or kit-build to produce many formations. 

 

Hornby's Coronation Scot Kitchen Car became possible because they had considered it desirable to tool up a 50' underframe to make the Period III BG. 

 

Hornby's range of Gresley corridors also omits a composite. 

EDIT: Erroneous phrase deleted. As pointed out by Chris45lsw later, Gresley CKs were "normal".

 

Extrapolating this to GWR coaches, the Mainline/Bachmann Collett stock, whilst it's not glaringly obvious, isn't millimetre perfect to scale length anyway. Any gap-filling types using common parts therefore wouldn't be any more inaccurate than the existing ones and might even get a tad closer....

 

John 

Edited August 20, 2021 by Dunsignalling
Correction / explanation

[BMacdermott]

Hello John

 

The Hornby Gresleys appeared way back in 2004 and the Staniers in 2005. Techniques, the market and the quantity of makers have all gone up in complexity etc since then. (Don't anyone mention prices please as it won't help us here!)

 

As noted, we have since had 'Portholes' and Coronation Scot as 'a range' as well as we are now seeing coaches with sides etc tooled separately for appropriate time-frames.

 

I feel we have hope for complete sets (within commercial reason).

 

Brian

 

 

[derekc]

6,7,8,9,10,11 as these cover my time period the best. 
If I was forced to choose it would be 11 

I have always loved the Collett era coaches and have a soft spot for the Super Saloons and Centenary stock  but ultimately the sunshine stock is the most useful for me.

[The Great Bear]

1,3,9,10 & 11 for me

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello John

 

The Hornby Gresleys appeared way back in 2004 and the Staniers in 2005. Techniques, the market and the quantity of makers have all gone up in complexity etc since then. (Don't anyone mention prices please as it won't help us here!)

 

As noted, we have since had 'Portholes' and Coronation Scot as 'a range' as well as we are now seeing coaches with sides etc tooled separately for appropriate time-frames.

 

I feel we have hope for complete sets (within commercial reason).

 

Brian

 

 

Hi Brian,

 

I'm not sure if the fact that the ranges with holes in them date back 15 years should be regarded as a mitigating factor or a cause for additional criticism.

 

Fact is that further runs are still made, to an unaltered specification more-or-less in line with their latest stuff, so I see no reason why the missing vehicles couldn't have been added by now. It used to be a cause for complaint that we could only get brake thirds and composites, but that seems to have been turned on its head as standards of accuracy have improved.

 

We'll soon be able to assemble a fairly complete representation of the pre-war Coronation Scot, which will be very nice if one has the room to accommodate it all, but Hornby remain unwilling to produce a vehicle pivotal to portraying everyday trains of 3-to-8-coaches from the same route.

 

Then there's the dreaded 12-wheel diner; still being pumped out from 40-year-old tooling acquired third-hand from Dapol . It's at least two generations inferior to the incomplete 2005 range and sticks out like a sore thumb if mixed with them. It is embarrassingly close to them in price, though!

 

Maybe we should be pushing for rational additions to ranges of "normal" stock (incorporated within range upgrades if that's necessary to get it done) ahead of more exotica....

 

Regards

 

John 

[St Enodoc]

10 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

I have trimmed my bu$h recently Rob. Kept finding bits of crumpet in it. Most disturbing.

P

Hmm...

[chris45lsw]

The 'typical' Gresley corridor was 61ft 6in over body on a 60ft underframe, including the Composite, so there was no reason for Hornby not to make a Compo (or a Brake Third for that matter) instead of the poor selection of TK, FK, BCK and RB (and sleeper).  It was the Thompson Composite which was 59ft 6in as against the 63ft of most Thompsons.  But happily Bachmann was prepared to make both lengths in this case.

 

Chris KT  

[chris45lsw]

I would agree with Brian that the best choice of a 'Sunshine' Compo would be the 59' 10" E158 which had the more usual 4 x first and 3 x third compartments.  The shorter 58' 7" Compos had 3 x first and 4 x third and were fewer in number.  In addition I'd suggest a D127 Van Third plus, naturally, improved replacements for the existing Bachmann C77 Third and E159 Brake Compo.

 

Chris KT

[BMacdermott]

11 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Maybe we should be pushing for rational additions to ranges of "normal" stock (incorporated within range upgrades if that's necessary to get it done) ahead of more exotica....

 

Regards

John 

 

Hello John

 

Fully agree with that view...and that's partly what we were trying to achieve with the 00 Poll listings and their relevant Guide entries.

 

I have attached a PDF of an extract from the 2019 Results in respect of the Stanier types (for those who might be interested in non-GWR matters).

 

Brian

LMS Coaches Extract from Results - 00 Wishlist Poll 2019.pdf

[gwrrob]

Again something different for the weekend, although I don't want to be accused of short-changing you with the same choice of rolling stock and photo locations. GWR ROD class 3005 does the honours.

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2021 by gwrrob
add a photo

[A Murphy]

Lovely! 

[mdvle]

On 19/08/2021 at 09:52, TrevorP1 said:

Interesting point. Nowadays manufacturers don’t give us one generic roof or underframe, each has different detail according to prototype. So with that in mind a few millimetres extra length on mould X compared to mould Y shouldn’t make much difference to the machining processes.

 

So, the fine print - I am not a manufacturer, never have been.  But I have paid attention to what various manufacturers have said over the years.

 

The first point is it will depend on how concerned about accuracy the manufacturer is - see for example the recent enlightening post regarding the Oxford Mk3's and that the underside was scaled to 1:76 not 1:76.2 which has resulted in noticeable (to some) issues.

 

But more generally, it will depend on exactly how big the discrepancy is.  So, 1mm won't be a big problem, but as you increase that problems start occurring - the primary one being that you now have to start scaling all the other visible features (door/windows/etc) to try and hide the fact that the coach is either too short or too long.

 

So, some work and applying some guesswork.

 

In this case, I have done the conversions of the example lengths given by Chris from the prototype lengths to OO (76.2) and then to mm, and get the following:

1. 60' 11.25"     243.7mm
2. 59' 10"          239.3mm
3. 58' 7"            234.3mm
4. 60' 1.25"       240.4mm

The obvious pairing it 2 and 4 - a difference of 1.1 mm in length and if you split the difference you would get 0.5mm - easily enough to ignore/hide.

 

But 1 and 3 would be a problem - your getting about 4mm difference for 1 and 5mm (or 6mm) difference for 3 and my guess is those are big enough that the cascading issues of trying to hide them would create a coach that looked wrong for many (though equally for many they wouldn't care).

 

(to try and put that 5mm into OO perspective, a drawing online that I quickly found indicates that a Mk2 door is about 3' wide - or about 12mm - so you would be losing about half a door - which means you need to attempt to scale that out across the rest of the coach - doable yes, but likely noticeable particularly if side by side to a coach that wasn't modified - our eyes can often see things that otherwise seem minor).

[mdvle]

Voting for 6, 7, 8 please.

 

I wonder, despite the general (likely correct) negativity about the Super Saloons if the Royal naming might help sell them to people who otherwise wouldn't buy them.

 

On 18/08/2021 at 04:17, BMacdermott said:

Given that getting any GWR catering stock is hard, I’m not holding my breath but will firmly cross my fingers in eternal hope!

 

With no knowledge of who is paying attention to these polls, or who (if anyone) is being provided with the results, I wonder if Sonic Models might be one to take on GWR catering stock.  For now at least his different selling method (only through Rails of Sheffield) means that he potentially has more flexibility given that a distributor/UK operation isn't taking a cut of the selling price I am guessing.

 

Perhaps GWR modellers need to find a way to provide feedback to Sonic.

[BMacdermott]

Thanks mdvle

 

I will ensure Sonic receive the PDFs of the Case Notes, Results and Comments Received relating to the Dining Car Mini-Poll which will be starting on Wednesday 25 August (or maybe a day earlier due to the content - it will be engrossing! ).

 

The same three PDFs relating to 'Toplights' went to Accurascale, Bachmann, Dapol and Hornby. All four kindly replied and thanked us all. I have only just received the final reply (the person was on holiday) otherwise I would have reported back earlier.

 

Brian

[gwrrob]

[TrevorP1]

2 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

So, the fine print - I am not a manufacturer, never have been.  But I have paid attention to what various manufacturers have said over the years.

 

The first point is it will depend on how concerned about accuracy the manufacturer is - see for example the recent enlightening post regarding the Oxford Mk3's and that the underside was scaled to 1:76 not 1:76.2 which has resulted in noticeable (to some) issues.

 

But more generally, it will depend on exactly how big the discrepancy is.  So, 1mm won't be a big problem, but as you increase that problems start occurring - the primary one being that you now have to start scaling all the other visible features (door/windows/etc) to try and hide the fact that the coach is either too short or too long.

 

So, some work and applying some guesswork.

 

In this case, I have done the conversions of the example lengths given by Chris from the prototype lengths to OO (76.2) and then to mm, and get the following:

1. 60' 11.25"     243.7mm
2. 59' 10"          239.3mm
3. 58' 7"            234.3mm
4. 60' 1.25"       240.4mm

The obvious pairing it 2 and 4 - a difference of 1.1 mm in length and if you split the difference you would get 0.5mm - easily enough to ignore/hide.

 

But 1 and 3 would be a problem - your getting about 4mm difference for 1 and 5mm (or 6mm) difference for 3 and my guess is those are big enough that the cascading issues of trying to hide them would create a coach that looked wrong for many (though equally for many they wouldn't care).

 

(to try and put that 5mm into OO perspective, a drawing online that I quickly found indicates that a Mk2 door is about 3' wide - or about 12mm - so you would be losing about half a door - which means you need to attempt to scale that out across the rest of the coach - doable yes, but likely noticeable particularly if side by side to a coach that wasn't modified - our eyes can often see things that otherwise seem minor).

Sorry if I haven’t kept up or made myself quite clear but I’m away from home and can only grab a ‘look in’ now and again. 

 

My point was that if a manufacturer will go to the trouble of putting correct detail on say, roofs or chassis for different types of coach (given that sides will obviously be different) then it may not make any difference to them if the length has to be different to create a different vehicle.

 

I hope I’m making sense!  

[Denbridge]

1 hour ago, TrevorP1 said:

Sorry if I haven’t kept up or made myself quite clear but I’m away from home and can only grab a ‘look in’ now and again. 

 

My point was that if a manufacturer will go to the trouble of putting correct detail on say, roofs or chassis for different types of coach (given that sides will obviously be different) then it may not make any difference to them if the length has to be different to create a different vehicle.

 

I hope I’m making sense!  

A different length vehicle would need dedicated tooling. Whilst that isn't in itself reason not to produce one, a manufacturer would need to be confident that the (very expensive) tooling costs could be justified.

[mdvle]

Tooling costs - combination of public comments by Rapido and ScaleTrains in the US.

 

Loco (diesel) - $200k

Freight car (Goods wagon) - $50k to $60k

Passenger car/coach - $100k or more

 

And those figures are 6 to 12 months old and so don't account for recent price increases in China.

 

So yes, sales potential really matters - and so hopefully these polls can help guide manufactures (particularly regarding Toplights) where there is the potential for a successful product.

 

Comments regarding steam loco tooling aren't transferable to the UK given how different and more difficult in terms of add on details most North American steam tends to be other than to say it is expensive, which is why Rapido's North American steam locos cost $600.

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by mdvle

[McC]

It’s also fair to say tooling can vary a lot based on how deep you go into variations.  The mk5 was more expensive than a loco like the class 55 for example. You also need to factor design and research cost, laser scanning and surveys and related works before you get to unit cost of production, assembly and paint/Tampo printing then boxing, packaging. The HYA wagons have 80 Tampo prints per side and another 34 per bogie alone. 

[BMacdermott]

GWR 00 Rolling Stock Mini-Poll No.10: Gangwayed Stock (exc Sleepers & Catering)

 

Hello everyone

 

A reminder that your ‘Polling Station’ closes at 17.00 today with Results expected tomorrow.

 

If you haven’t already voted, here’s what to do…

1. You may vote for any or all of the items listed plus suggestions at 12 (if you so wish).

2, They must be items you would realistically wish to buy if made RTR at ‘affordable prices’.

3. Submit your entries on this thread simply as (for example): 2, 4, 7 – with comments and explanations following.

4, If you vote by PM, please only list your selection of numbers without explanations.

 

Clerestory

1   Dean Gangwayed Clerestory Coaches (1892-1904)      

 

70ft Long Coaches

2   Churchward 70ft Coaches ‘Dreadnought’ (1904-1905)

3   Churchward 70ft Coaches ‘Concertina’ (1906-1907)

4   Churchward 70ft Coaches ‘Toplight’ (1908-1922)

5   Collett 70ft Coaches ‘South Wales’ (1923-1924)

 

9ft 5¾in & 9ft 7in ‘Wide’ Stock

6   Collett 61ft 4½in (9ft 5¾in wide) Cornish Riviera etc Coaches (1929-1930)

7   Collett 61ft 4½in (9ft 7in wide) ‘Super Saloons’ (1931)

8   Collett 61ft 4½in (9ft 7in wide) ‘Centenary’ Coaches (1935)

 

9ft & 9ft 3in Stock

9   Collett 61ft 4½in (9ft & 9ft 3in wide) Bow Ended General Service Coaches (1930-1933)

10 Collett 60ft (9ft wide) Excursion Coaches (1935)

11 Collett 60ft 11¼in (9ft wide) ‘Large Window’/‘Sunshine’ Coaches (1936-1943)

 

12 Your suggestions for Gangwayed Stock not listed.

Please do not suggest any of the shorter ‘Toplights’, Sleepers or Catering stock. Other ‘Toplights’ have been dealt with; Sleepers and Catering are in future Mini-Polls.

 

Brian

(Note: These are ‘informal Polls for fun’ on Rob’s thread only and neither RMweb nor The 00 Wishlist Poll Team are specifically involved, apart from me, John, Chris and Ian in our ‘personal capacities’.)

 

[BenL]

Huge thanks Brian, Robin and team for another great poll. 

 

I'd like to vote for the following, please:

1,6,9,10,11

[Limpley Stoker]

I’d like to vote for

 

1. Dean clerestories  —properly lined out !

 

9, 10, 11.   Sushine stock updated with similar Collett vehicles would be universally popular.

 

Thanks as always Brian.

[gwrrob]

A few more shots of the rather grubby ROD class 3005 heading east.

 

[toboldlygo]

Meanwhile the Weathering Express freight has arrived at the works..

 

 

[1466]

5 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

GWR 00 Rolling Stock Mini-Poll No.10: Gangwayed Stock (exc Sleepers & Catering)

 

Hello everyone

 

A reminder that your ‘Polling Station’ closes at 17.00 today with Results expected tomorrow.

 

If you haven’t already voted, here’s what to do…

1. You may vote for any or all of the items listed plus suggestions at 12 (if you so wish).

2, They must be items you would realistically wish to buy if made RTR at ‘affordable prices’.

3. Submit your entries on this thread simply as (for example): 2, 4, 7 – with comments and explanations following.

4, If you vote by PM, please only list your selection of numbers without explanations.

 

Clerestory

1   Dean Gangwayed Clerestory Coaches (1892-1904)      

 

70ft Long Coaches

2   Churchward 70ft Coaches ‘Dreadnought’ (1904-1905)

3   Churchward 70ft Coaches ‘Concertina’ (1906-1907)

4   Churchward 70ft Coaches ‘Toplight’ (1908-1922)

5   Collett 70ft Coaches ‘South Wales’ (1923-1924)

 

9ft 5¾in & 9ft 7in ‘Wide’ Stock

6   Collett 61ft 4½in (9ft 5¾in wide) Cornish Riviera etc Coaches (1929-1930)

7   Collett 61ft 4½in (9ft 7in wide) ‘Super Saloons’ (1931)

8   Collett 61ft 4½in (9ft 7in wide) ‘Centenary’ Coaches (1935)

 

9ft & 9ft 3in Stock

9   Collett 61ft 4½in (9ft & 9ft 3in wide) Bow Ended General Service Coaches (1930-1933)

10 Collett 60ft (9ft wide) Excursion Coaches (1935)

11 Collett 60ft 11¼in (9ft wide) ‘Large Window’/‘Sunshine’ Coaches (1936-1943)

 

12 Your suggestions for Gangwayed Stock not listed.

Please do not suggest any of the shorter ‘Toplights’, Sleepers or Catering stock. Other ‘Toplights’ have been dealt with; Sleepers and Catering are in future Mini-Polls.

 

Brian

(Note: These are ‘informal Polls for fun’ on Rob’s thread only and neither RMweb nor The 00 Wishlist Poll Team are specifically involved, apart from me, John, Chris and Ian in our ‘personal capacities’.)

 

Number 1 , please