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20 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

GWR 00 Rolling Stock Mini-Poll No.11: Dining Cars

 

Hello everyone

 

Welcome to the eleventh in our series of GWR 00 Rolling Stock Mini-Polls. I am running them here with my friends, John Lewis, Chris Knowles-Thomas and Ian Taylor on Rob’s behalf. We also extend a warm welcome to Mike Wiltshire (aka Coach bogie) to the team for this Dining Car Mini-Poll only.

 

We have discounted many of the GWR Dining Cars as being too long for many, too few vehicles in some cases or having a complicated structural history. Some may be surprised that we have omitted the Hornby Diag.H33 Compo Diner. We have instead listed Diag.H25 – it has the same design body sides as the H33 and is, in effect, a flat end version of it.

 

Crucially, the H25 ran in BR Chocolate & Cream whereas H33 never did. The Hornby Dublo Restaurant Car of 1957 was clearly based on the H25 design.

 

We have given you six suggestions with bullet point notes, as we did with the ‘Toplights'. We feel this will give a more ‘rounded result’ with everyone ‘singing from the same sheet’.

 

In order to generate some debate – and some ‘learning opportunities’ – please feel free to explain why you have chosen your selections. I copy all ‘Comments Received’ in order of receipt – but with names removed – and post them as a PDF with the Results.

 

Please note that we do not welcome comments that act as an excuse to start up the old chestnut of ‘kits vs RTR’!

 

Here’s what to do…

1. You may vote for any or all of the items plus your preferences at 7 and/or 8 plus suggestions at 9 (if you so wish).

2. They must be items you would realistically wish to buy if made RTR at ‘affordable prices’.

3. Submit your entries on this thread simply as (for example): 1, 3 & 6 – with comments and explanations following. My posting which follows should serve as an example.

4. If you vote by PM, please only list your selection of numbers without explanations.

 

1 Diag.H16 Unclassed Diner

57ft x 9ft. Six vehicles. Nos.9546 to 9551. ‘Toplight’ series. Kitchen at one end. Lifespan: 1908-1955/60.

  • As built, they looked rather like ordinary compartment stock. Each seating bay had a droplight and a pair of quarterlights.
  • Originally had 9ft American bogies under the kitchen end and 8ft ones under the other, the latter quickly changed to 9ft American in 1909, then 9ft ‘heavy’ bogies in the mid-1920s.
  • Had flat bars trussing, as did the early ‘Toplights’. In effect, a Bars 1 ‘Toplight’…without toplights!
  • 1938 GWR document shows No.9540 Minehead-Paddington; No.9547 Kingswear-Wolverhampton; No.9548 Minehead-Paddington; No.9550 Ilfracombe-Paddington.
  • In 1938/9, they were all given effectively new steel panelled sides with large windows, making them now look more ‘restaurant’ than ‘passenger’.
  • They spent WWII as Kitchen Cars in Ambulance trains.
  • After returning to ordinary service, they were all fitted with Pullman gangway adaptors (but maybe not to No.9549). No.9551 didn’t get them until November 1957!
  • No.9550 was known to have run in Chocolate & Cream – and was possibly in The Cambrian Coast Express c.1957. No.9551 was photographed by RC Riley in Lined Maroon in November 1957.

Link: https://rcts.zenfolio.com/coaching-stock/gwr/other/hA86FB99A#ha86fb99a

 

2 Diag.H25 Compo Diner

57ft x 8ft 6in. Six vehicles. Nos.9562-9567. Flat ended. Kitchen in centre. Lifespan: 1923/24-1959/61

  • Narrow width means pretty much ‘go anywhere’.
  • They were originally fitted with 9ft 'heavy' bogies, but Nos.9563/4/6 are recorded as being fitted with Collett 7ft bogies in 1928-9 (same as on Hornby Colletts).
  • 1938 GWR document shows No.9567 booked Wolverhampton-Paignton ECS; Paignton-Newton Abbot; Newton Abbot-Exeter; Exeter-Paignton; Paignton-Birmingham.
  • During WWII, they were formed in Casualty Evacuation and Ambulance trains.
  • All but No.9565 had new interiors post-1945. Hampton scheme.
  • In 1953/4, Nos.9562/4/5/7 fitted with gangway adaptors.
  • 1957 BR document notes No.9563 in 12.05pm Friday Empty Diners Paddington-Newquay
  • Ran in BR Chocolate & Cream, but No.9566 was noted Maroon (1957).
  • No.9563 noted in the Cambrian Coast Express late 1957; No.9566 in The Cornishman (1958).

Link: https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/carriage/w29ak/

 

3 Diag.H38 Compo Diner

61ft 4½in x 9ft. Ten vehicles. Nos.9601-9610. Bow ended. Kitchen at one end. Lifespan: 1931-1962.

  • 1938 GWR document shows No.9602 Kingswear-Manchester; No.9605 Kingswear-Manchester; No.9608 Paignton-Manchester.
  • Ran on 9ft ‘heavy’ bogies.
  • The only outwardly discernible modifications in 1939 and 1942 were to the windows – sliding glass ventilators instead of top-opening hinged toplights.
  • No.9608 was so modified in 1946, at which time it was also fitted with gangway adaptors. The remainder were so fitted in the 1950s.
  • Intended for cross-country trains, but from 1957 used more on relief trains.
  • No.9605 was acquired by the National Railway Museum.

Link: https://rcts.zenfolio.com/coaching-stock/gwr/other/hA86FA6E0#ha86fa6e0

 

4 Diags.H39 & H40 2-car Set (Kitchen First & Diner Third)

61ft 4½in x 9ft 3in. Ten sets (up to 1953). Nos.9611-9630. Kitchen one end of First. Lifespan: 1931-1962.

  • Shallow sliding ventilators fitted before 1939 (except Nos.9614/9/24/9).
  • Modified internally under the Hampton scheme from 1949.
  • Ran on 9ft ‘heavy’ bogies.
  • All fitted later with gangway adaptors.
  • Nos.9611-13 converted to Diag.H59 Buffet Cars from September 1953.
  • Ran in BR Chocolate & Cream from summer 1956 although a 1959 photo shows a set running as Maroon Kitchen First with Red & Cream Diner (9.20amSO St Ives-Paddington).
  • In 1959, for example, used in the Cornish Riviera Express (to Penzance M-F, St Ives SO), 11.00amSO and 11.05amSO Paddington-Penzance (the latter as far as Plymouth).
  • Nos.9615 & 9627 preserved on the SVR.
  • Production of these cars might help pave the way for the ‘matching’ 1929 Cornish Riviera stock.

Link: http://www.gw-svr-a.org.uk/images/9615_600px.jpg

Link: https://www.svrwiki.com/GWR_9627_Restaurant_Third#/media/File:GWR_9627_20210423.jpg

 

5 Diag.H55 Buffet Car 12-wheel

60ft 11¼ x 8ft 11in. Five vehicles. Nos.9676-9680. Buffet etc one end. Lifespan: 1938-1962/5.

  • 6-wheel bogies always give any vehicle a ‘distinctive and important look’.
  • These cars could run off the GWR system to the north.
  • 1938 GWR document shows No.9680 Kingswear-Paddington.
  • They were not altered in the Hampton scheme.
  • All later fitted with gangway adaptors.
  • Nos.9677 and 9678 were painted BR Chocolate & Cream in 1956.
  • One of this diagram was in the Bristolian from 1954 to 1961; that was No.9677 from 1956 in Chocolate & Cream.

Link: https://rcts.zenfolio.com/coaching-stock/gwr/other/hA87064D7#ha87064d7

 

6 Diag.H57 Compo Diner 12-wheel

60ft 11¼in x 8ft 11in. Five vehicles. Nos.9671-9675. Kitchen in centre. Lifespan: 1938-1962.

  • 6-wheel bogies always give any vehicle a ‘distinctive and important look’.
  • These cars could run off the GWR system to the north.
  • No.9672 was the first of the Hampton refurbished vehicles into service (1946).
  • No.9673 was used by Generals Montgomery and Eisenhower as a mobile headquarters in the Alive train February 1943 to November 1946.
  • All fitted with gangway adaptors, 1953/4.
  • Nos.9672 and 9673 were painted BR Chocolate & Cream.
  • One of the two noted in The Royal Duchy (1957); No.9671 noted in The Devonian (1958); No.9672 was in The Cornishman (1957); and both noted in the Cambrian Coast Express (late 1957).
  • Used on top link duties until 1960; relief work until 1962.

Link: https://rcts.zenfolio.com/coaching-stock/gwr/other/hA87062BD#ha87062bd

 

7 If a company offered to make just one of the 8-wheel types, which would be your preference?

 

8 If a company offered to make just one of the 12-wheel types, which would be your preference?

 

9 Your suggestions for GWR Dining Cars not listed.

If you want a new-tooled version of the Hornby Diag.H33 Compo Diner, please log it here, but remember that that diagram never ran in BR Chocolate & Cream. Please give reasons for your suggestions.

 

Get your thinking caps on and get voting! I will acknowledge receipt of your vote via the ‘Thx’ tick box.

 

You have until midnight on Monday 30 August. However, I will stop earlier and advise if votes reach 50. I will present the results during the day on Tuesday 31 August. They will be sent to: Accurascale, Bachmann, Dapol, Hornby and Sonic.

 

I look forward to your selections and comments!

 

I have attached a PDF version of the above if is easier for you to download and observe at your leisure.

 

Brian

(Note: These are ‘informal Polls for fun’ on Rob’s thread only and neither RMweb nor The 00 Wishlist Poll Team are specifically involved, apart from me, John, Chris and Ian in our ‘personal capacities’.)

 

 

GWR Mini-Poll No.11 Dining Cars.pdf 121.97 kB · 1 download

1, 2 and 3 please.

 

Not 4, as a dining pair would take up too much of the train length on my layout to be of value to me.

 

Not 5 or 6, as I suspect that 12-wheelers would be visually compromised in the same way as the old Dapol/Hornby LMS one.

 

7 - 3. Visually, the H38 would make a nice difference from the H25/H33.

 

8 - none.

 

9 - H41 Buffet, a good self-contained vehicle.

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1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

Not 5 or 6, as I suspect that 12-wheelers would be visually compromised in the same way as the old Dapol/Hornby LMS one.

 

9 - H41 Buffet, a good self-contained vehicle.

 

Hello John

 

Hornby makes 12-wheel Pullman Cars and I don't think I have heard of any running problems with those. Is there any reason to suspect GWR 12-wheelers would present a problem?

 

We didn't list H41 mainly because there were only two of them, but they did run in the Bristolian and various reliefs and excursions. And one is preserved in lovely condition.

 

Brian

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For the 8-wheel type I'd choose 2; go anywhere no major external alterations.

1 and 3 were modified externally which poses a problem for RTR manufacturers. Two car sets in one six coach train is too much.

 

For the 12-wheel type I'd choose 6 but would be quite happy with 5; close call but we're unlikely to get both!

 

I'd be happy with a new version of H.33, I model GWR so I'm not worried about later BR liveries.

 

Martin

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3 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

GWR 00 Rolling Stock Mini-Poll No.11: Dining Cars

 

Hello everyone

 

Welcome to the eleventh in our series of GWR 00 Rolling Stock Mini-Polls. I am running them here with my friends, John Lewis, Chris Knowles-Thomas and Ian Taylor on Rob’s behalf. We also extend a warm welcome to Mike Wiltshire (aka Coach bogie) to the team for this Dining Car Mini-Poll only.

 

We have discounted many of the GWR Dining Cars as being too long for many, too few vehicles in some cases or having a complicated structural history. Some may be surprised that we have omitted the Hornby Diag.H33 Compo Diner. We have instead listed Diag.H25 – it has the same design body sides as the H33 and is, in effect, a flat end version of it.

 

Crucially, the H25 ran in BR Chocolate & Cream whereas H33 never did. The Hornby Dublo Restaurant Car of 1957 was clearly based on the H25 design.

 

We have given you six suggestions with bullet point notes, as we did with the ‘Toplights'. We feel this will give a more ‘rounded result’ with everyone ‘singing from the same sheet’.

 

In order to generate some debate – and some ‘learning opportunities’ – please feel free to explain why you have chosen your selections. I copy all ‘Comments Received’ in order of receipt – but with names removed – and post them as a PDF with the Results.

 

Please note that we do not welcome comments that act as an excuse to start up the old chestnut of ‘kits vs RTR’!

 

Here’s what to do…

1. You may vote for any or all of the items plus your preferences at 7 and/or 8 plus suggestions at 9 (if you so wish).

2. They must be items you would realistically wish to buy if made RTR at ‘affordable prices’.

3. Submit your entries on this thread simply as (for example): 1, 3 & 6 – with comments and explanations following. My posting which follows should serve as an example.

4. If you vote by PM, please only list your selection of numbers without explanations.

 

1 Diag.H16 Unclassed Diner

57ft x 9ft. Six vehicles. Nos.9546 to 9551. ‘Toplight’ series. Kitchen at one end. Lifespan: 1908-1955/60.

  • As built, they looked rather like ordinary compartment stock. Each seating bay had a droplight and a pair of quarterlights.
  • Originally had 9ft American bogies under the kitchen end and 8ft ones under the other, the latter quickly changed to 9ft American in 1909, then 9ft ‘heavy’ bogies in the mid-1920s.
  • Had flat bars trussing, as did the early ‘Toplights’. In effect, a Bars 1 ‘Toplight’…without toplights!
  • 1938 GWR document shows No.9540 Minehead-Paddington; No.9547 Kingswear-Wolverhampton; No.9548 Minehead-Paddington; No.9550 Ilfracombe-Paddington.
  • In 1938/9, they were all given effectively new steel panelled sides with large windows, making them now look more ‘restaurant’ than ‘passenger’.
  • They spent WWII as Kitchen Cars in Ambulance trains.
  • After returning to ordinary service, they were all fitted with Pullman gangway adaptors (but maybe not to No.9549). No.9551 didn’t get them until November 1957!
  • No.9550 was known to have run in Chocolate & Cream – and was possibly in The Cambrian Coast Express c.1957. No.9551 was photographed by RC Riley in Lined Maroon in November 1957.

Link: https://rcts.zenfolio.com/coaching-stock/gwr/other/hA86FB99A#ha86fb99a

 

2 Diag.H25 Compo Diner

57ft x 8ft 6in. Six vehicles. Nos.9562-9567. Flat ended. Kitchen in centre. Lifespan: 1923/24-1959/61

  • Narrow width means pretty much ‘go anywhere’.
  • They were originally fitted with 9ft 'heavy' bogies, but Nos.9563/4/6 are recorded as being fitted with Collett 7ft bogies in 1928-9 (same as on Hornby Colletts).
  • 1938 GWR document shows No.9567 booked Wolverhampton-Paignton ECS; Paignton-Newton Abbot; Newton Abbot-Exeter; Exeter-Paignton; Paignton-Birmingham.
  • During WWII, they were formed in Casualty Evacuation and Ambulance trains.
  • All but No.9565 had new interiors post-1945. Hampton scheme.
  • In 1953/4, Nos.9562/4/5/7 fitted with gangway adaptors.
  • 1957 BR document notes No.9563 in 12.05pm Friday Empty Diners Paddington-Newquay
  • Ran in BR Chocolate & Cream, but No.9566 was noted Maroon (1957).
  • No.9563 noted in the Cambrian Coast Express late 1957; No.9566 in The Cornishman (1958).

Link: https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/carriage/w29ak/

 

3 Diag.H38 Compo Diner

61ft 4½in x 9ft. Ten vehicles. Nos.9601-9610. Bow ended. Kitchen at one end. Lifespan: 1931-1962.

  • 1938 GWR document shows No.9602 Kingswear-Manchester; No.9605 Kingswear-Manchester; No.9608 Paignton-Manchester.
  • Ran on 9ft ‘heavy’ bogies.
  • The only outwardly discernible modifications in 1939 and 1942 were to the windows – sliding glass ventilators instead of top-opening hinged toplights.
  • No.9608 was so modified in 1946, at which time it was also fitted with gangway adaptors. The remainder were so fitted in the 1950s.
  • Intended for cross-country trains, but from 1957 used more on relief trains.
  • No.9605 was acquired by the National Railway Museum.

Link: https://rcts.zenfolio.com/coaching-stock/gwr/other/hA86FA6E0#ha86fa6e0

 

4 Diags.H39 & H40 2-car Set (Kitchen First & Diner Third)

61ft 4½in x 9ft 3in. Ten sets (up to 1953). Nos.9611-9630. Kitchen one end of First. Lifespan: 1931-1962.

  • Shallow sliding ventilators fitted before 1939 (except Nos.9614/9/24/9).
  • Modified internally under the Hampton scheme from 1949.
  • Ran on 9ft ‘heavy’ bogies.
  • All fitted later with gangway adaptors.
  • Nos.9611-13 converted to Diag.H59 Buffet Cars from September 1953.
  • Ran in BR Chocolate & Cream from summer 1956 although a 1959 photo shows a set running as Maroon Kitchen First with Red & Cream Diner (9.20amSO St Ives-Paddington).
  • In 1959, for example, used in the Cornish Riviera Express (to Penzance M-F, St Ives SO), 11.00amSO and 11.05amSO Paddington-Penzance (the latter as far as Plymouth).
  • Nos.9615 & 9627 preserved on the SVR.
  • Production of these cars might help pave the way for the ‘matching’ 1929 Cornish Riviera stock.

Link: http://www.gw-svr-a.org.uk/images/9615_600px.jpg

Link: https://www.svrwiki.com/GWR_9627_Restaurant_Third#/media/File:GWR_9627_20210423.jpg

 

5 Diag.H55 Buffet Car 12-wheel

60ft 11¼ x 8ft 11in. Five vehicles. Nos.9676-9680. Buffet etc one end. Lifespan: 1938-1962/5.

  • 6-wheel bogies always give any vehicle a ‘distinctive and important look’.
  • These cars could run off the GWR system to the north.
  • 1938 GWR document shows No.9680 Kingswear-Paddington.
  • They were not altered in the Hampton scheme.
  • All later fitted with gangway adaptors.
  • Nos.9677 and 9678 were painted BR Chocolate & Cream in 1956.
  • One of this diagram was in the Bristolian from 1954 to 1961; that was No.9677 from 1956 in Chocolate & Cream.

Link: https://rcts.zenfolio.com/coaching-stock/gwr/other/hA87064D7#ha87064d7

 

6 Diag.H57 Compo Diner 12-wheel

60ft 11¼in x 8ft 11in. Five vehicles. Nos.9671-9675. Kitchen in centre. Lifespan: 1938-1962.

  • 6-wheel bogies always give any vehicle a ‘distinctive and important look’.
  • These cars could run off the GWR system to the north.
  • No.9672 was the first of the Hampton refurbished vehicles into service (1946).
  • No.9673 was used by Generals Montgomery and Eisenhower as a mobile headquarters in the Alive train February 1943 to November 1946.
  • All fitted with gangway adaptors, 1953/4.
  • Nos.9672 and 9673 were painted BR Chocolate & Cream.
  • One of the two noted in The Royal Duchy (1957); No.9671 noted in The Devonian (1958); No.9672 was in The Cornishman (1957); and both noted in the Cambrian Coast Express (late 1957).
  • Used on top link duties until 1960; relief work until 1962.

Link: https://rcts.zenfolio.com/coaching-stock/gwr/other/hA87062BD#ha87062bd

 

7 If a company offered to make just one of the 8-wheel types, which would be your preference?

 

8 If a company offered to make just one of the 12-wheel types, which would be your preference?

 

9 Your suggestions for GWR Dining Cars not listed.

If you want a new-tooled version of the Hornby Diag.H33 Compo Diner, please log it here, but remember that that diagram never ran in BR Chocolate & Cream. Please give reasons for your suggestions.

 

Get your thinking caps on and get voting! I will acknowledge receipt of your vote via the ‘Thx’ tick box.

 

You have until midnight on Monday 30 August. However, I will stop earlier and advise if votes reach 50. I will present the results during the day on Tuesday 31 August. They will be sent to: Accurascale, Bachmann, Dapol, Hornby and Sonic.

 

I look forward to your selections and comments!

 

I have attached a PDF version of the above if is easier for you to download and observe at your leisure.

 

Brian

(Note: These are ‘informal Polls for fun’ on Rob’s thread only and neither RMweb nor The 00 Wishlist Poll Team are specifically involved, apart from me, John, Chris and Ian in our ‘personal capacities’.)

 

 

GWR Mini-Poll No.11 Dining Cars.pdf 121.97 kB · 4 downloads

My votes 

number 2 H25

number 6 H57 .

Thanks as always for such a well thought through and erudite poll .

As to the potential for sales:

I believe that there is interest from “serious “ as well as more relaxed modellers for diners/buffet cars generally. I guess the sales of the Railroad Hornby support this as well as the Maunsells .

A new H25 to modern standards would surely complement the beautiful Hornby Coletts .

6 wheeled carriages have a cachet all of their own to add to their sales appeal witness the Hornby Pullmans .

Finally,  Peter Denny showed that adding a restaurant car to a set of carriages can not only update its status but also give another train of a different character  . For instance , I run one train as a Paddington to Worcester as a humdrum cross country train . On its return , I add a a Hornby tarted up Railroad to give me a altogether more prestigious express . Two trains for the price of one coach .

I suggest all of the above augurs well for sales .

 

 

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Hello everyone

 

I'm detecting some potential for me to mis-understand some entries...

 

Can I please ask you to vote clearly as the hypothetical sample below? It  will make my life a lot easier and make the results more accurate.

 

Thanks 

 

Brian

 

Sample only:

 

I am voting for items 1, 3 and 6.

 

8-wheel preference is: No.2

 

12-wheel preference is : None

 

My suggestions for items not listed are: Diag.H69 and Diag.H96

 

My reasons for the above are (xxxxxxxx)

 

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I have a couple of 12 Wheel Pullmans and they are smooth as a Baby's #### (but one has a faulty wheel on one axle and makes a sort of 'flat' sound on running) I might replace it if ICBA,

 

Poll:

4 H39 and 40 in late 50s/end of life livery.

6 H57, same.

No preferences thanks, except for livery due to era.

Any excuse to use WR stuff on a SR layout.

Thanks Brian.

Phil

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2 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

Hornby makes 12-wheel Pullman Cars and I don't think I have heard of any running problems with those. Is there any reason to suspect GWR 12-wheelers would present a problem?

Brian, my observation was based on two things.

 

1. The horrible segments cut out of the solebars on the Dapol restaurant car; and

2. My experience with a 12-wheeled 70ft van, where the wheels foul the inside of the solebars on curves less than about 3ft radius. That's put me off 12-wheelers, although the shorter ones might be OK.

 

I've no experience with the Hornby 12-wheel Pullmans I'm afraid.

 

Thanks.

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4 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

GWR 00 Rolling Stock Mini-Poll No.11: Dining Cars

Of the ones you list I'd vote for:

 

1) H16, but in the updated 1940 guise with 6 wheel bogies, updated windows with airstream vents (There is a super photo of one of these in Michael Harris' book.)

 

3) H38 

 

6) H57 12 wheeled

 

2) H25

 

Not so keen on:

4) H39/H40 is tricky to use since it is formed as a pair

5) I'd find less desirable since its a Buffet

 

Ones on the wish list:

 

The G61 Super Saloon would be a nice to have - they just look so good, as would a Centenary restaurant like 9635 as preserved at Didcot. 

 

The Centenary stock is in many ways impractical, except that I'm modelling the preservation era and so feel that a full Centenary rake would be quite a prize.

 

Yours,  Mike.

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6 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

GWR 00 Rolling Stock Mini-Poll No.11: Dining Cars

 

Hello everyone

 

Welcome to the eleventh in our series of GWR 00 Rolling Stock Mini-Polls. I am running them here with my friends, John Lewis, Chris Knowles-Thomas and Ian Taylor on Rob’s behalf. We also extend a warm welcome to Mike Wiltshire (aka Coach bogie) to the team for this Dining Car Mini-Poll only.

 

We have discounted many of the GWR Dining Cars as being too long for many, too few vehicles in some cases or having a complicated structural history. Some may be surprised that we have omitted the Hornby Diag.H33 Compo Diner. We have instead listed Diag.H25 – it has the same design body sides as the H33 and is, in effect, a flat end version of it.

 

Crucially, the H25 ran in BR Chocolate & Cream whereas H33 never did. The Hornby Dublo Restaurant Car of 1957 was clearly based on the H25 design.

 

We have given you six suggestions with bullet point notes, as we did with the ‘Toplights'. We feel this will give a more ‘rounded result’ with everyone ‘singing from the same sheet’.

 

In order to generate some debate – and some ‘learning opportunities’ – please feel free to explain why you have chosen your selections. I copy all ‘Comments Received’ in order of receipt – but with names removed – and post them as a PDF with the Results.

 

Please note that we do not welcome comments that act as an excuse to start up the old chestnut of ‘kits vs RTR’!

 

Here’s what to do…

1. You may vote for any or all of the items plus your preferences at 7 and/or 8 plus suggestions at 9 (if you so wish).

2. They must be items you would realistically wish to buy if made RTR at ‘affordable prices’.

3. Submit your entries on this thread simply as (for example): 1, 3 & 6 – with comments and explanations following. My posting which follows should serve as an example.

4. If you vote by PM, please only list your selection of numbers without explanations.

 

1 Diag.H16 Unclassed Diner

57ft x 9ft. Six vehicles. Nos.9546 to 9551. ‘Toplight’ series. Kitchen at one end. Lifespan: 1908-1955/60.

  • As built, they looked rather like ordinary compartment stock. Each seating bay had a droplight and a pair of quarterlights.
  • Originally had 9ft American bogies under the kitchen end and 8ft ones under the other, the latter quickly changed to 9ft American in 1909, then 9ft ‘heavy’ bogies in the mid-1920s.
  • Had flat bars trussing, as did the early ‘Toplights’. In effect, a Bars 1 ‘Toplight’…without toplights!
  • 1938 GWR document shows No.9540 Minehead-Paddington; No.9547 Kingswear-Wolverhampton; No.9548 Minehead-Paddington; No.9550 Ilfracombe-Paddington.
  • In 1938/9, they were all given effectively new steel panelled sides with large windows, making them now look more ‘restaurant’ than ‘passenger’.
  • They spent WWII as Kitchen Cars in Ambulance trains.
  • After returning to ordinary service, they were all fitted with Pullman gangway adaptors (but maybe not to No.9549). No.9551 didn’t get them until November 1957!
  • No.9550 was known to have run in Chocolate & Cream – and was possibly in The Cambrian Coast Express c.1957. No.9551 was photographed by RC Riley in Lined Maroon in November 1957.

Link: https://rcts.zenfolio.com/coaching-stock/gwr/other/hA86FB99A#ha86fb99a

 

2 Diag.H25 Compo Diner

57ft x 8ft 6in. Six vehicles. Nos.9562-9567. Flat ended. Kitchen in centre. Lifespan: 1923/24-1959/61

  • Narrow width means pretty much ‘go anywhere’.
  • They were originally fitted with 9ft 'heavy' bogies, but Nos.9563/4/6 are recorded as being fitted with Collett 7ft bogies in 1928-9 (same as on Hornby Colletts).
  • 1938 GWR document shows No.9567 booked Wolverhampton-Paignton ECS; Paignton-Newton Abbot; Newton Abbot-Exeter; Exeter-Paignton; Paignton-Birmingham.
  • During WWII, they were formed in Casualty Evacuation and Ambulance trains.
  • All but No.9565 had new interiors post-1945. Hampton scheme.
  • In 1953/4, Nos.9562/4/5/7 fitted with gangway adaptors.
  • 1957 BR document notes No.9563 in 12.05pm Friday Empty Diners Paddington-Newquay
  • Ran in BR Chocolate & Cream, but No.9566 was noted Maroon (1957).
  • No.9563 noted in the Cambrian Coast Express late 1957; No.9566 in The Cornishman (1958).

Link: https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/carriage/w29ak/

 

3 Diag.H38 Compo Diner

61ft 4½in x 9ft. Ten vehicles. Nos.9601-9610. Bow ended. Kitchen at one end. Lifespan: 1931-1962.

  • 1938 GWR document shows No.9602 Kingswear-Manchester; No.9605 Kingswear-Manchester; No.9608 Paignton-Manchester.
  • Ran on 9ft ‘heavy’ bogies.
  • The only outwardly discernible modifications in 1939 and 1942 were to the windows – sliding glass ventilators instead of top-opening hinged toplights.
  • No.9608 was so modified in 1946, at which time it was also fitted with gangway adaptors. The remainder were so fitted in the 1950s.
  • Intended for cross-country trains, but from 1957 used more on relief trains.
  • No.9605 was acquired by the National Railway Museum.

Link: https://rcts.zenfolio.com/coaching-stock/gwr/other/hA86FA6E0#ha86fa6e0

 

4 Diags.H39 & H40 2-car Set (Kitchen First & Diner Third)

61ft 4½in x 9ft 3in. Ten sets (up to 1953). Nos.9611-9630. Kitchen one end of First. Lifespan: 1931-1962.

  • Shallow sliding ventilators fitted before 1939 (except Nos.9614/9/24/9).
  • Modified internally under the Hampton scheme from 1949.
  • Ran on 9ft ‘heavy’ bogies.
  • All fitted later with gangway adaptors.
  • Nos.9611-13 converted to Diag.H59 Buffet Cars from September 1953.
  • Ran in BR Chocolate & Cream from summer 1956 although a 1959 photo shows a set running as Maroon Kitchen First with Red & Cream Diner (9.20amSO St Ives-Paddington).
  • In 1959, for example, used in the Cornish Riviera Express (to Penzance M-F, St Ives SO), 11.00amSO and 11.05amSO Paddington-Penzance (the latter as far as Plymouth).
  • Nos.9615 & 9627 preserved on the SVR.
  • Production of these cars might help pave the way for the ‘matching’ 1929 Cornish Riviera stock.

Link: http://www.gw-svr-a.org.uk/images/9615_600px.jpg

Link: https://www.svrwiki.com/GWR_9627_Restaurant_Third#/media/File:GWR_9627_20210423.jpg

 

5 Diag.H55 Buffet Car 12-wheel

60ft 11¼ x 8ft 11in. Five vehicles. Nos.9676-9680. Buffet etc one end. Lifespan: 1938-1962/5.

  • 6-wheel bogies always give any vehicle a ‘distinctive and important look’.
  • These cars could run off the GWR system to the north.
  • 1938 GWR document shows No.9680 Kingswear-Paddington.
  • They were not altered in the Hampton scheme.
  • All later fitted with gangway adaptors.
  • Nos.9677 and 9678 were painted BR Chocolate & Cream in 1956.
  • One of this diagram was in the Bristolian from 1954 to 1961; that was No.9677 from 1956 in Chocolate & Cream.

Link: https://rcts.zenfolio.com/coaching-stock/gwr/other/hA87064D7#ha87064d7

 

6 Diag.H57 Compo Diner 12-wheel

60ft 11¼in x 8ft 11in. Five vehicles. Nos.9671-9675. Kitchen in centre. Lifespan: 1938-1962.

  • 6-wheel bogies always give any vehicle a ‘distinctive and important look’.
  • These cars could run off the GWR system to the north.
  • No.9672 was the first of the Hampton refurbished vehicles into service (1946).
  • No.9673 was used by Generals Montgomery and Eisenhower as a mobile headquarters in the Alive train February 1943 to November 1946.
  • All fitted with gangway adaptors, 1953/4.
  • Nos.9672 and 9673 were painted BR Chocolate & Cream.
  • One of the two noted in The Royal Duchy (1957); No.9671 noted in The Devonian (1958); No.9672 was in The Cornishman (1957); and both noted in the Cambrian Coast Express (late 1957).
  • Used on top link duties until 1960; relief work until 1962.

Link: https://rcts.zenfolio.com/coaching-stock/gwr/other/hA87062BD#ha87062bd

 

7 If a company offered to make just one of the 8-wheel types, which would be your preference?

 

8 If a company offered to make just one of the 12-wheel types, which would be your preference?

 

9 Your suggestions for GWR Dining Cars not listed.

If you want a new-tooled version of the Hornby Diag.H33 Compo Diner, please log it here, but remember that that diagram never ran in BR Chocolate & Cream. Please give reasons for your suggestions.

 

Get your thinking caps on and get voting! I will acknowledge receipt of your vote via the ‘Thx’ tick box.

 

 

 

 

GWR Mini-Poll No.11 Dining Cars.pdf 121.97 kB · 8 downloads

 

Thanks again for an excellent and thought provoking poll Brian and team.

 

Quite a bit of knowledge has been had by this post. Like others have said, the paired diners are only suitable for large layouts as length of trains are compromised. That's why you would be lucky to get a manufacturer to do any of those diagrams including the H43/4 Centenaries. 

 

My choices therefore are only numbers 2, H25 and 6, H57 and a retooled H33 , the latter choice [H57] would also be a nice addition to my Royal Duchy train. As for coaches running with 6 wheel bogies, in my experience they run fine on my code 75 [Comet kit built] and take my curves with no problems.

Edited by gwrrob
added detail.
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As my layout is supposedly set in 1957, I would vote primarily for vehicles which carried BR choc/cream livery (ideally to form part of the Torbay Express), as follows:

 

2 - H25

3- H38

5 - H55

6- H57

 

7 (8-wheeler) H25

8 (12-wheeler) H57

 

I would add that I could only justify buying one of whichever vehicle was produced.

 

Thanks once again for the poll.

 

Pete

 

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Hi Brian, another great poll

 Thanks for doing the heavy lifting on this. Had to get out my copies of Russell's reference book to confirm my choices which are 2,3 & 6.

Iwell remember the 2 coach sets in rakes of Mk1s until the new build catering vehicles came on stream but would not be able to accommodate that on my layout. 12 wheel bogies should be OK but not if fitted the same way as the Dapol/ Hornby ex LMS  restaurant car, the vehicle rides too high and the are notches cut out of the solebars.

7. H25

8. H57

 

No other vehicles suggested.

 

That is the verdict of the Bazza jury.

Many thanks Brian & Co

 

Bazza

 

 

 

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Brian and team, thank you for another well thought out Poll.

 

I’m back from my holidays so have been trawling through the OPC books by Jim Russell.

 

My votes are therefore as follows:

1; 2; 3 and 4

 

If only one is launched, I would prefer option 2 the H25 Composite Diner.

 

Options 5 and 6 are too late for me as they were built in 1938…. Which gives a possible suggestion for an omission:

 

H41 Buffett carriage of 1934. 2 carriages were built to 57ft x 9ft with 9ft bogies. 
 

My thoughts for all of the carriages are that I would want to see them in GWR shirtbutton logo, which would see them before windows started to be changed around 1938/39

 

option 1 would suit any possible Toplight set; option 2 would suit the current Hornby stock; option 3 interesting cross country carriages. Option 4 is interesting, but I suspect an outside bet for the majority of people.

 

Thanks again.

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Brian and team, thank you once again for another interesting and informative poll. I think I would put my hand in my pocket for ANY decent GW origin diner but to give at least a  little focus my choices are:

 

  • 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5.
  • 8 wheel preference 3
  • 12 wheel preference 5.

I've chosen 3 as my 8 wheel preference but really I don't have one - Mr Manufacturers please can we have any decent GW diner! My reason for choosing the 12 wheel H55 is that I'm just finishing off a Wizard H57 but in reality I think I might still be tempted by another RTR one...

 

Some have left the H39 and H40 'set' because it is two vehicles but I'm already running SOs with Bachmann RUs to simulate a dining pair. I believe the Coronation Scot ran 3 catering vehicles from 9 coaches while in Cornwall on a weekday the Cornish Riviera ran the H39 and H40 with a similar number of vehicles. So any compromises would be similar. I wonder if a GW dining pair would appeal as a 'stand alone' product to one of the more 'adventurous' new manufacturers? Just thoughts... 

 

 

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, TrevorP1 said:

....... I wonder if a GW dining pair would appeal as a 'stand alone' product to one of the more 'adventurous' new manufacturers? Just thoughts... 

 

 

Interesting you say that, I nearly added that I wonder if Rapido might do the GWR Restaurant carriage. It might appeal to their unique status.

 

Certainly, Rapido could go to town with the extra details... lights; curtains; underframe detail; separate slides to represent carriage windows pre 1938 and after 1938 etc.

 

What do you reckon @rapidoandy; @rapidobill

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23 minutes ago, 2ManySpams said:

Now then, now then...

 

If a friend needed some plates for a Pannier or 2 in 4mm scale (4666 & 1368), where would the assembled throng advise shopping?

 

A local Pannier Market of course !

 

Blimey Spammerz don't you know nuffink ?

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