A Nod To Brent - a friendly thread, filled with frivolity, cream teas and pasties. Longing for the happy days in the South Hams 1947.

[Coach bogie]

14 minutes ago, TrevorP1 said:

Another option for plates might be 3D transfers from Railtec. I’ve not tried them yet but all of their other products are excellent.

https://www.railtec-models.com/showitem.php?id=2769

 

Mike Wiltshire

[2ManySpams]

2 hours ago, Coach bogie said:

https://www.railtec-models.com/showitem.php?id=2769

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

My friend thanks you Mike...

[2ManySpams]

3 hours ago, bgman said:

 

A local Pannier Market of course !

 

Blimey Spammerz don't you know nuffink ?

 

Yo BG Bloke!

 

I do worry about you sometimes. You've fallen off that tarty bike of yours and banged your head haven't you?

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, TrevorP1 said:

Another option for plates might be 3D transfers from Railtec. I’ve not tried them yet but all of their other products are excellent.

 

3 hours ago, Coach bogie said:

https://www.railtec-models.com/showitem.php?id=2769

 

Mike Wiltshire

I can endorse this suggestion, based on recent experience with my Bachmann 94xx.

 

Usual disclaimer.

[Dunsignalling]

4 hours ago, 2ManySpams said:

Now then, now then...

 

If a friend needed some plates for a Pannier or 2 in 4mm scale (4666 & 1368), where would the assembled throng advise shopping?

My set for 4666 came from 247 Developments (Mozzer of this parish) and he lists 1368 too.

 

John

[The Fatadder]

On 24/08/2021 at 08:46, BMacdermott said:

GWR 00 Rolling Stock Mini-Poll No.11: Dining Cars

 

Hello everyone

 

Welcome to the eleventh in our series of GWR 00 Rolling Stock Mini-Polls. I am running them here with my friends, John Lewis, Chris Knowles-Thomas and Ian Taylor on Rob’s behalf. We also extend a warm welcome to Mike Wiltshire (aka Coach bogie) to the team for this Dining Car Mini-Poll only.

 

We have discounted many of the GWR Dining Cars as being too long for many, too few vehicles in some cases or having a complicated structural history. Some may be surprised that we have omitted the Hornby Diag.H33 Compo Diner. We have instead listed Diag.H25 – it has the same design body sides as the H33 and is, in effect, a flat end version of it.

 

Crucially, the H25 ran in BR Chocolate & Cream whereas H33 never did. The Hornby Dublo Restaurant Car of 1957 was clearly based on the H25 design.

 

We have given you six suggestions with bullet point notes, as we did with the ‘Toplights'. We feel this will give a more ‘rounded result’ with everyone ‘singing from the same sheet’.

 

In order to generate some debate – and some ‘learning opportunities’ – please feel free to explain why you have chosen your selections. I copy all ‘Comments Received’ in order of receipt – but with names removed – and post them as a PDF with the Results.

 

Please note that we do not welcome comments that act as an excuse to start up the old chestnut of ‘kits vs RTR’!

 

Here’s what to do…

1. You may vote for any or all of the items plus your preferences at 7 and/or 8 plus suggestions at 9 (if you so wish).

2. They must be items you would realistically wish to buy if made RTR at ‘affordable prices’.

3. Submit your entries on this thread simply as (for example): 1, 3 & 6 – with comments and explanations following. My posting which follows should serve as an example.

4. If you vote by PM, please only list your selection of numbers without explanations.

 

1 Diag.H16 Unclassed Diner

57ft x 9ft. Six vehicles. Nos.9546 to 9551. ‘Toplight’ series. Kitchen at one end. Lifespan: 1908-1955/60.

• As built, they looked rather like ordinary compartment stock. Each seating bay had a droplight and a pair of quarterlights.
• Originally had 9ft American bogies under the kitchen end and 8ft ones under the other, the latter quickly changed to 9ft American in 1909, then 9ft ‘heavy’ bogies in the mid-1920s.
• Had flat bars trussing, as did the early ‘Toplights’. In effect, a Bars 1 ‘Toplight’…without toplights!
• 1938 GWR document shows No.9540 Minehead-Paddington; No.9547 Kingswear-Wolverhampton; No.9548 Minehead-Paddington; No.9550 Ilfracombe-Paddington.
• In 1938/9, they were all given effectively new steel panelled sides with large windows, making them now look more ‘restaurant’ than ‘passenger’.
• They spent WWII as Kitchen Cars in Ambulance trains.
• After returning to ordinary service, they were all fitted with Pullman gangway adaptors (but maybe not to No.9549). No.9551 didn’t get them until November 1957!
• No.9550 was known to have run in Chocolate & Cream – and was possibly in The Cambrian Coast Express c.1957. No.9551 was photographed by RC Riley in Lined Maroon in November 1957.

Link: https://rcts.zenfolio.com/coaching-stock/gwr/other/hA86FB99A#ha86fb99a

 

2 Diag.H25 Compo Diner

57ft x 8ft 6in. Six vehicles. Nos.9562-9567. Flat ended. Kitchen in centre. Lifespan: 1923/24-1959/61

• Narrow width means pretty much ‘go anywhere’.
• They were originally fitted with 9ft 'heavy' bogies, but Nos.9563/4/6 are recorded as being fitted with Collett 7ft bogies in 1928-9 (same as on Hornby Colletts).
• 1938 GWR document shows No.9567 booked Wolverhampton-Paignton ECS; Paignton-Newton Abbot; Newton Abbot-Exeter; Exeter-Paignton; Paignton-Birmingham.
• During WWII, they were formed in Casualty Evacuation and Ambulance trains.
• All but No.9565 had new interiors post-1945. Hampton scheme.
• In 1953/4, Nos.9562/4/5/7 fitted with gangway adaptors.
• 1957 BR document notes No.9563 in 12.05pm Friday Empty Diners Paddington-Newquay
• Ran in BR Chocolate & Cream, but No.9566 was noted Maroon (1957).
• No.9563 noted in the Cambrian Coast Express late 1957; No.9566 in The Cornishman (1958).

Link: https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/carriage/w29ak/

 

3 Diag.H38 Compo Diner

61ft 4½in x 9ft. Ten vehicles. Nos.9601-9610. Bow ended. Kitchen at one end. Lifespan: 1931-1962.

• 1938 GWR document shows No.9602 Kingswear-Manchester; No.9605 Kingswear-Manchester; No.9608 Paignton-Manchester.
• Ran on 9ft ‘heavy’ bogies.
• The only outwardly discernible modifications in 1939 and 1942 were to the windows – sliding glass ventilators instead of top-opening hinged toplights.
• No.9608 was so modified in 1946, at which time it was also fitted with gangway adaptors. The remainder were so fitted in the 1950s.
• Intended for cross-country trains, but from 1957 used more on relief trains.
• No.9605 was acquired by the National Railway Museum.

Link: https://rcts.zenfolio.com/coaching-stock/gwr/other/hA86FA6E0#ha86fa6e0

 

4 Diags.H39 & H40 2-car Set (Kitchen First & Diner Third)

61ft 4½in x 9ft 3in. Ten sets (up to 1953). Nos.9611-9630. Kitchen one end of First. Lifespan: 1931-1962.

• Shallow sliding ventilators fitted before 1939 (except Nos.9614/9/24/9).
• Modified internally under the Hampton scheme from 1949.
• Ran on 9ft ‘heavy’ bogies.
• All fitted later with gangway adaptors.
• Nos.9611-13 converted to Diag.H59 Buffet Cars from September 1953.
• Ran in BR Chocolate & Cream from summer 1956 although a 1959 photo shows a set running as Maroon Kitchen First with Red & Cream Diner (9.20amSO St Ives-Paddington).
• In 1959, for example, used in the Cornish Riviera Express (to Penzance M-F, St Ives SO), 11.00amSO and 11.05amSO Paddington-Penzance (the latter as far as Plymouth).
• Nos.9615 & 9627 preserved on the SVR.
• Production of these cars might help pave the way for the ‘matching’ 1929 Cornish Riviera stock.

Link: http://www.gw-svr-a.org.uk/images/9615_600px.jpg

Link: https://www.svrwiki.com/GWR_9627_Restaurant_Third#/media/File:GWR_9627_20210423.jpg

 

5 Diag.H55 Buffet Car 12-wheel

60ft 11¼ x 8ft 11in. Five vehicles. Nos.9676-9680. Buffet etc one end. Lifespan: 1938-1962/5.

• 6-wheel bogies always give any vehicle a ‘distinctive and important look’.
• These cars could run off the GWR system to the north.
• 1938 GWR document shows No.9680 Kingswear-Paddington.
• They were not altered in the Hampton scheme.
• All later fitted with gangway adaptors.
• Nos.9677 and 9678 were painted BR Chocolate & Cream in 1956.
• One of this diagram was in the Bristolian from 1954 to 1961; that was No.9677 from 1956 in Chocolate & Cream.

Link: https://rcts.zenfolio.com/coaching-stock/gwr/other/hA87064D7#ha87064d7

 

6 Diag.H57 Compo Diner 12-wheel

60ft 11¼in x 8ft 11in. Five vehicles. Nos.9671-9675. Kitchen in centre. Lifespan: 1938-1962.

• 6-wheel bogies always give any vehicle a ‘distinctive and important look’.
• These cars could run off the GWR system to the north.
• No.9672 was the first of the Hampton refurbished vehicles into service (1946).
• No.9673 was used by Generals Montgomery and Eisenhower as a mobile headquarters in the Alive train February 1943 to November 1946.
• All fitted with gangway adaptors, 1953/4.
• Nos.9672 and 9673 were painted BR Chocolate & Cream.
• One of the two noted in The Royal Duchy (1957); No.9671 noted in The Devonian (1958); No.9672 was in The Cornishman (1957); and both noted in the Cambrian Coast Express (late 1957).
• Used on top link duties until 1960; relief work until 1962.

Link: https://rcts.zenfolio.com/coaching-stock/gwr/other/hA87062BD#ha87062bd

 

7 If a company offered to make just one of the 8-wheel types, which would be your preference?

 

8 If a company offered to make just one of the 12-wheel types, which would be your preference?

 

9 Your suggestions for GWR Dining Cars not listed.

If you want a new-tooled version of the Hornby Diag.H33 Compo Diner, please log it here, but remember that that diagram never ran in BR Chocolate & Cream. Please give reasons for your suggestions.

 

Get your thinking caps on and get voting! I will acknowledge receipt of your vote via the ‘Thx’ tick box.

 

You have until midnight on Monday 30 August. However, I will stop earlier and advise if votes reach 50. I will present the results during the day on Tuesday 31 August. They will be sent to: Accurascale, Bachmann, Dapol, Hornby and Sonic.

 

I look forward to your selections and comments!

 

I have attached a PDF version of the above if is easier for you to download and observe at your leisure.

 

Brian

(Note: These are ‘informal Polls for fun’ on Rob’s thread only and neither RMweb nor The 00 Wishlist Poll Team are specifically involved, apart from me, John, Chris and Ian in our ‘personal capacities’.)

 

Dining coaches enter a rather difficult area for me, as for the moment at least I already have a rebuilt H33, H26 and a H43/H44 pair (and the H33 cant fit in the fiddleyard as it is).  However from memory of the working timetable there was one daily train comprising of about 5 different restaurant cars which ran from Cornwall (or maybe Plymouth) back to London, presumably because the return workings didnt have dining provision). So there is still a justification for more, I do think that which ever dining car Hornby et al decided to release I would be unable to resist if it was in suitable condition for rebranding to 1947.

 

So for the Poll

1, H16, based on the photo linked in the original post it looks an interesting design (particularly if the part panelled finish was replicated!) I havent got an unclassified restaurant which adds to its value.  

2, H25, useful for cross country trains, 

3, H38, would be purchasing if it is in rebuilt condition suitable for 1947 

5, H55 was not one that i was previously aware of, however the combination of 60ft length with 12 wheel bogies is certainly of interest

6, H57, comments as per H55 

 

I dont think I would end up purchasing the twin set (4) given my existing glut of dining cars, already having a twin centenary set and the fact that other than the Riviera I dont recall seeing a twin set listed in Devon in my period.  

 

 

For both the preference 8 wheel and preference 12 wheel, I dont really have a preference to a specific prototype.  My expectation would be that if one manufacturer released a dining car, so long as it was in an accurate body condition for 1947 I would purchase it.  

If more than one manufacturer were to release on in short succession I would likely buy the best model, (and buy the other out of a later batch).

[chrisf]

Rich, are you thinking of the Empty Diners?  It ran each Friday in the summer from Paddington to Truro where the dining cars were detached and spread among the deserving.

 

Chris

[Mallard60022]

2 hours ago, 2ManySpams said:

 

Yo BG Bloke!

 

I do worry about you sometimes. You've fallen off that tarty bike of yours and banged your head haven't you?

I think he rode into the canal and it floated upside down with those tyres.

[The Stationmaster]

Overall preferences -

 

2 - H25

3 - H38

5 - H55

 

Preferred 8 wheeler is No.3, Preferred 12 wheeler is No.5.

 

BTW I do happen to have some official photos of some of these vehicles should anyone be interested although they can't be used for commercial purposes but as teh cincern which sold them long ago ceased to exist they might not be too dodgy to post on here?

[Mallard60022]

1 minute ago, chrisf said:

Rich, are you thinking of the Empty Diners?  It ran each Friday in the summer from Paddington to Truro where the dining cars were detached and spread among the deserving.

 

Chris

I so desperately need that to be a Diverted Train through Seaton Junction!!!!!! I have read every Trains Illustrated from 1958 to 1962 and can't find any excuses sadly.

[The Fatadder]

2 hours ago, chrisf said:

Rich, are you thinking of the Empty Diners?  It ran each Friday in the summer from Paddington to Truro where the dining cars were detached and spread among the deserving.

 

Chris

Most annoyingly my record keeping has been really poor, so I have the end result for my timetable but nothing citing where each bit of data came from.  (Made worse after I deleted the column containing the original departure time and only left the time through Brent, making it all the more tricky to cross ref between documents.) One day when I finally manage to look at a matching carriage working doc and working timetable for October 47 onwards I will redo the research and cite it properly this time...

 

However, I cant see a formation given in the Oct46 - Jun 47 carriage working doc. There is a matching working in the September 1949 working timetable which is labelled as "OOC empty coaching stock MX" which I think is where I have got the timings from.  I think that the confirmation it was an ECS move of restaurant cars (plus a BG and a brake), however I cant find the source of this confirmation.   Would love to find a copy of the carriage working document for September 1949 to at least have a matching pair to work from.

 

edit: Ive just had a look on the BR Coaching group and both summer and September 49 carriage and van documents are now added so I can do some cross referencing this evening...

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by The Fatadder

[BMS]

1 (lots of liveries and mods!)

9 H33

V interesting following the corres.)

Thanks

[toboldlygo]

Fox Transfers all the way.

 

The Railtec Website appears to be very selective as to who appears to work for..

Edited August 25, 2021 by toboldlygo

[gwrrob]

28 minutes ago, toboldlygo said:

Fox Transfers all the way.

 

 

Absolutely and his friend might want to support a local retailer. 4666 was at Exmouth Junction shed at withdrawal.

 

https://www.fox-transfers.co.uk/gwr-cabside-numberplates-4666

 

https://www.fox-transfers.co.uk/gwr-cabside-numberplates-1367

[Denbridge]

2 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

Most annoyingly my record keeping has been really poor, so I have the end result for my timetable but nothing citing where each bit of data came from.  (Made worse after I deleted the column containing the original departure time and only left the time through Brent, making it all the more tricky to cross ref between documents.) One day when I finally manage to look at a matching carriage working doc and working timetable for October 47 onwards I will redo the research and cite it properly this time...

 

However, I cant see a formation given in the Oct46 - Jun 47 carriage working doc. There is a matching working in the September 1949 working timetable which is labelled as "OOC empty coaching stock MX" which I think is where I have got the timings from.  I think that the confirmation it was an ECS move of restaurant cars (plus a BG and a brake), however I cant find the source of this confirmation.   Would love to find a copy of the carriage working document for September 1949 to at least have a matching pair to work from.

 

edit: Ive just had a look on the BR Coaching group and both summer and September 49 carriage and van documents are now added so I can do some cross referencing this evening...

 

Interesting. I've built or have kits for, more dining vehicles than I realistically will ever need. Do you have more details that you could share please?

[BMacdermott]

2 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

However, I cant see a formation given in the Oct46 - Jun 47 carriage working doc. There is a matching working in the September 1949 working timetable which is labelled as "OOC empty coaching stock MX" which I think is where I have got the timings from.  I think that the confirmation it was an ECS move of restaurant cars (plus a BG and a brake), however I cant find the source of this confirmation. 

 

Hello Rich

 

I think you may have in mind what was - certainly in the mid-50s if not sooner - the 3.50am Plymouth-Old Oak Common Empty Stock train. I have never heard of a 'matching' Up Empty Diners (against the 12.05pm Friday Down train)

 

A note against the Summer 1956 3.45pm Parcels Penzance-Paddington said that a Twin Diner and BCK was booked SO Plymouth-Taunton to work 3.52pm Sunday Taunton-Paddington. Those coaches went down on the rear of the 11.05amSO Paddington-Penzance, detached Plymouth. The 'twin diner' was noted as Kitchen First and Second Dining Saloon (Mk1 according to the carriage workings book!)

 

Brian

[The Fatadder]

I've had a flick through and so far no mention of the formation of my empty coaching rake so I am still at a loss as to where I got the information that it was comprised of restaurant coaches... 

 

however I did spot this gem in the summer 49 book:

8:17 am Perrenporth - Paddington

Van Third, TK, CK, CK, TK, TK, BTK, Dining Car (not specified), BCK, BCK, TK, TK, CK, BTK

 

The section in bold formed the 10:20am Kingsbridge - Brent, although there is nothing in the timetable which details how it actually got to Kingsbridge in the first place.  My assumption is that the down traffic was not sufficient to have a dedicated train, and instead would have been spread across a large number.  For a set of 5 coaches to form the 10:20 service out of Kingsbridge, it would have needed to arrive at Brent some time around 9:30-9:40 at the latest, so something like a 4am departure from Paddington.   So my assumption is that the coaches would have been worked empty from Plymouth or Newton Abbot to Kingsbridge.   Thinking about it I have a feeling this service may have been discussed on here once before...

While I have long since decided that I will base the layout in September / October in order that I am able to avoid the very long summer trains (and i am fairly sure its been mentioned before that it had not returned in the summer 47 timetable)  I do think a crack at modelling this specific working will be too hard to resist.

 

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, The Fatadder said:

Most annoyingly my record keeping has been really poor, so I have the end result for my timetable but nothing citing where each bit of data came from.  (Made worse after I deleted the column containing the original departure time and only left the time through Brent, making it all the more tricky to cross ref between documents.) One day when I finally manage to look at a matching carriage working doc and working timetable for October 47 onwards I will redo the research and cite it properly this time...

 

However, I cant see a formation given in the Oct46 - Jun 47 carriage working doc. There is a matching working in the September 1949 working timetable which is labelled as "OOC empty coaching stock MX" which I think is where I have got the timings from.  I think that the confirmation it was an ECS move of restaurant cars (plus a BG and a brake), however I cant find the source of this confirmation.   Would love to find a copy of the carriage working document for September 1949 to at least have a matching pair to work from.

 

edit: Ive just had a look on the BR Coaching group and both summer and September 49 carriage and van documents are now added so I can do some cross referencing this evening...

 

I don't know about back that far but back in the days when I came across the train in various ways in 1965-66ish  the move between OOC and Paddington (on a Thursday) was only published on the Paddington Saloon List (a sort of local Notice) and wasn't in any printed timetable and the move of the cars west was either on booked Class 3 trains or as published on a Notice.

 

The Summer 1938 STT shows the 05.15 Paddington Parcels extended through to Penzance on Fridays during the peak part of the holiday period which suggests that it might have been used  to work diners or something down to the west ready for the Saturday.

[chrisf]

1 hour ago, The Fatadder said:

  For a set of 5 coaches to form the 10:20 service out of Kingsbridge, it would have needed to arrive at Brent some time around 9:30-9:40 at the latest, so something like a 4am departure from Paddington.   So my assumption is that the coaches would have been worked empty from Plymouth or Newton Abbot to Kingsbridge.   

 

I think it more likely that these coaches spent the week at Kingsbridge, having arrived on the previous Saturday afternoon.  This was certainly the case around 1961.

 

Chris

[railtec-models]

4 hours ago, toboldlygo said:

The Railtec Website appears to be very selective as to who appears to work for..

 

Did you mean to actually write that you can't get the Railtec web site to work?

 

The Railtec web site continues to be perfectly operational and orders continue to pile in. I seem to recall it being an issue for you once you got to paypal.com - which of course is nothing to do with Railtec. I'm pretty strong technically but I don't control PayPal.

 

For the remainder, the GWR packs can be found here, incl the complete steam loco packs incl both 2d and 3d customisable items:

https://www.railtec-models.com/catalog.php?type=5&gauge=4mm&theme=26

 

I'm sure everyone else will let me know if the link above doesn't work for them

 

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by railtec-models

[Ribird]

I know nothing about most coaches (need to learn eventually), but Hattons has some bargains for GWR Collet and Hawksworth coaches for about ₤31 a piece in the bundles, and ₤33 individually. 

 

Hattons: Hornby GWR Collett 57' (shirtbutton livery)

 

Hattons: Hornby BR Collett & Hawksworth Coaches

[toboldlygo]

1 hour ago, railtec-models said:

 

Did you mean to actually write that you can't get the Railtec web site to work?

 

The Railtec web site continues to be perfectly operational and orders continue to pile in. I seem to recall it being an issue for you once you got to paypal.com - which of course is nothing to do with Railtec. I'm pretty strong technically but I don't control PayPal.

 

For the remainder, the GWR packs can be found here, incl the complete steam loco packs incl both 2d and 3d customisable items:

https://www.railtec-models.com/catalog.php?type=5&gauge=4mm&theme=26

 

I'm sure everyone else will let me know if the link above doesn't work for them

 

 

 

It's the only site I've had 'issues' with Paypal and when you offered to place the order over the phone - your card facility was down and I did give you my mobile number and you never bothered back to me when it was fixed.

I had a neighbour try to order for (who works for Worldpay) she couldn't place the order either.

[Clearwater]

Currently on hols on the English Riviera.  Staying within walking distance of the Dawlish to Teignmouth sea wall and have made several pilgrimages.  Both sons thoroughly approve.  Sadly no steam specials this week as had been looking forward to chance to be lineside as a big express loco thundered by.  Pleased to report that most drivers my sons’ have waved at have waved back with about 50% blipping horn.  Also visited Kingswear and Dartmouth which I’ve not been to before.  Younger son wants to get “a zoomer back to Paddington.’”  A successful week to date!

[Ian Hargrave]

More delectation is yours on a trip on the SDR from Totnes to Buckfastleigh  . On Dartmouth Quay there is an excellent fish restaurant which is good for both adults and offspring. Also a boat trip up the Dart to Greenways from Dartmouth reveals the world of Agatha Christie. Enjoy.

[Clearwater]

7 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

More delectation is yours on a trip on the SDR from Totnes to Buckfastleigh  . On Dartmouth Quay there is an excellent fish restaurant which is good for both adults and offspring. Also a boat trip up the Dart to Greenways from Dartmouth reveals the world of Agatha Christie. Enjoy.

We’ve been on the SDR on previous holidays and I agree it’s a lovely railway.  Is the fish restaurant the former station building?  We enjoyed the boat trip though #1 son complained it wasn’t on the steam paddle steamer.  We were all impressed by the way the naval college towers  above the river.