A Nod To Brent - a friendly thread, filled with frivolity, cream teas and pasties. Longing for the happy days in the South Hams 1947.

[Neal Ball]

2 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello Neal and everyone

 

A factor to take into account with the 00 Poll is that we listed 800+ items although we conservatively estimated that we could have listed 30,000+ items.

 

So... the 800 are 'already towards the top of the tree' and even 'low pollers' are consequently way up in that hierarchy.

 

The following have been announced since publication of the 2019 Poll Results.

 

8    The Top 50 

• 6 steam locos
• 1 PCCS (post-steam era)
• 1 Freight (steam era)

 

10  High Polling

• 4 Steam locos
• 1 Diesel loco (steam era partly)
• 1 DMU (steam era partly)
• 1 EMU (post-steam era)
• 1 PCCS (steam era)
• 1 NPCCS (steam era)
• 1 Freight (steam era)

 

4    Middle Polling

• 1 Steam loco
• 3 Freight (1 steam era, 2 post-steam era)

 

5    Low Polling 

• 1 Diesel loco (partly steam era)
• 1 PCCS (steam era)
• 1 NPCCS (post-steam era)
• 2 Freight (post-steam era)

 

Of those 27 items, 19 were from the top half of the listings.

 

There have only been a handful of announcements over the years of items that we didn't have listed. Some of those were 'ready for the next year' but didn't get in the current year due to overloads on certain categories.

 

Brian

 

Interesting Brian thank you. I love these sort of stats...

 

If only we knew (precisely !!!!!) what the manufacturers thing about our polls... and how much (if at all) they can be swayed by our wishes...

 

Remains to be seen, but doesn't stop us hoping.

 

Thanks again, Neal.

[mdvle]

4 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

Hopefully all this exposure and talk of GWR carriages will spur some new RTR very soon.....

 

I hope so as well, though I will just point out (given how impatient we have become in general as a society) that unless some of these items are already in the pipeline we are looking at years for results.

 

The numbers I have heard are 12 to 24 months for a goods wagon/passenger coach and 2 to 3 years for a loco (that's doing the necessary research, getting drawings done, and tooling etc. - and assumes no delays).

 

So make your desires known to the manufacturers, but also be realistic in expectations.

 

 

Edited September 12, 2021 by mdvle
spelling

[Neal Ball]

37 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

I hope so as well, though I will just point out (given how impatient we have become in general as a society) that unless some of these items are already in the pipeline we are looking at years for results.

 

The numbers I have heard are 12 to 24 months for a goods wagon/passenger coach and 2 to 3 years for a loco (that's doing the necessary research, getting drawings done, and tooling etc. - and assumes no delays).

 

So make your desires known to the manufacturers, but also be realistic in expectations.

 

 

 

Yes I have heard that as well. Plus we now need to factor in delays associated with Covid and the current shipping container shortage.

 

I guess with the likes of Dapol and other new entrants (Accurascale etc.), we would easily be looking at 2 or 3 years time for a new set of carriages.

 

But I live in hope that Bachmann started on a new batch of carriages (say) 2 years ago and they are very soon to be announced. The old Mainline sunshine carriages disappeared from the catalogue a while ago now. Apologies that it's my usual "Bachmann must be...." line !

 

I live in hope.

Neal.

[BMacdermott]

Hello everyone

 

I have often said that (in relation to Poll matters) even if an item polled, say, 10,000+ votes it wouldn't be made unless the makers felt that they could actually make a profit from it.

 

I guess that all models need to have a 'business case' presented for approval and that will take into account complexities, research, fragility etc - unless you happen to have 'loadsamoney' and make you want!

 

Brian

[gwrrob]

More centenary coach action. I'm currently working on increasing the rake length.

 

 

 

[mdvle]

6 hours ago, Neal Ball said:

If only we knew (precisely !!!!!) what the manufacturers thing about our polls... and how much (if at all) they can be swayed by our wishes...

 

Not talking specifically about the polls (either these mini-polls or the big poll), but in general I think that the demonstration of wanted user input - whether through direct action like Rapido's submission form or indirect through things like the thread in the Accurascale section, or in better times through comments made at train shows - means that the polls are certainly considered in the decision making process - though each manufacturer will decide on their own both on how much to rate the influence of any of these methods of feedback.

 

But with perhaps some exceptions there really isn't anything that a manufacturer can turn to and say "the business case for making X is so strong that it is a guaranteed success".  There is still a lot of guesses, gut instinct, personal preferences and other factors in deciding what to make - like observing both their own sales numbers and their competitors sales numbers.  Example - the new high end version of the Bachmann 47 and the apparent strong interest in the sound fitted deluxe version

 

And sometimes, despite a lot of feedback regarding a model, it won't sell as well as expected - in the US ScaleTrains has commented that they had a lot of requests for their Carbon Black cars but the sales numbers didn't reflect the apparent demand.

 

Or they will proceed with a model they think will sell and it won't - Rapido Canada currently has a transition era diesel that is struggling to get sales and may end up being cancelled after the order deadline this week (fortunately for them they haven't yet got to the tooling stage).

 

(and thus worth mentioning sometimes a model does far better than they expect as well).

 

More specifically to these GWR mini-polls.

 

I don't think we will be able to say over the next 4 years that company A brought out GWR product X as a result of a vote held this summer on this thread.

 

But what may potentially happen is 2 things:

1. it is possible for some of these prototypes we have demonstrated a way forward - that we have shown a consensus (based on limited voting) of a subset of prototypes that can be taken into model form that will roughly satisfy the market - though there will of course still be loud complainers.
2. consider that none of these companies will be experts on every aspect of the railways of the UK (the privatized era, BR era, the big 4, and their predecessors) - and this inherently means there will be opportunities that they are not yet aware of.  Thus there is the potential these polls will make 1 or more of them take notice and research whether there really is (in their opinion) an opportunity.  For example, as I noted, the apparent contradiction between the continued popularity of the GWR BLT and yet the lack of accurate RTR stock (Auto Trailers and B-sets primarily) for such a layout.  I am sure there are other potential opportunities that any manufacturer paying attention will have made a notation in their internal "wish list" to research and evaluate further.

(and we can't of course discount the possibility of a new entry seeing these poll results and getting the confidence to proceed through any hesitation they have - note the recent podcast interview by Keith Revell (of KR Models) where he - to paraphrase - wanted a GT3 for his layout so he Googled model train factories...  and then that progressed further based on the feedback he got through events like Warley...  - yes, some have issues with his products, but the example stands at what somebody can do if they have the desire to do it).

 

[BMacdermott]

Thanks for the above mdvle

 

A purpose of the main Poll and these Mini-Polls is 'education' - be that for ourselves of for the makers to take on board.

 

I have been involved with such polls for well over a decade but have learnt much by running the Minis here!

 

Brian

[Mallard60022]

Well that was interesting, but now my remaining Brain Cell hurts quite a lot. I think I might need reprogramming?

P

[Mallard60022]

Is this question allowed? If a manufacturer is aware that a do it yourself version, (I did not use the K word), of a particular item is available and they are these days very unlikely to make any profit in any way, then they just won't do it unless they have the actual cost benefit analysis?

If this question isn't allowed then I will remove it................ but someone will have read it!

Thank you and good morning.

P

Edited September 13, 2021 by Mallard60022

[Tim Dubya]

5 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Well that was interesting, but now my remaining Brain Cell hurts quite a lot. I think I might need reprogramming?

P

 

I'm looking forward to a modern B set so I can paint the Airfix version into BR(S) green and number it appropriately.  Sorry if that effected your reprogramming.

[Mallard60022]

Just now, Tim Dubya said:

 

I'm looking forward to a modern B set so I can paint the Airfix version into BR(S) green and number it appropriately.  Sorry if that effected your reprogramming.

Exterminate, exterminate; I am sorry Tim, but I can not do that. 

P

[Tim Dubya]

Anyone fancy buying Coopercraft?

 

 

I hope this works out and all these ranges get released (particularly for me, all the blacksmith stuff).

Cheers

 

[Ian Hargrave]

3 hours ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

I'm looking forward to a modern B set so I can paint the Airfix version into BR(S) green and number it appropriately.  Sorry if that effected your reprogramming.

To be recycled as what exactly? Only asking….

[mdvle]

3 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Is this question allowed? If a manufacturer is aware that a do it yourself version, (I did not use the K word), of a particular item is available and they are these days very unlikely to make any profit in any way, then they just won't do it unless they have the actual cost benefit analysis?

 

My guess, the existence or not of a do it yourself version doesn't factor into the decision making process at all.

 

Far more important in the decision making will be whether they think there is the potential to sell the required number of models - and a DIY version will have limited impact on that guesswork.

 

 

 

 

 

[gwrrob]

Afternoon Cornish leftovers.

 

[Tim Dubya]

Are those kits or the old Airfix/GMR Centenary coaches Rob?

 

[gwrrob]

1 hour ago, Tim Dubya said:

Are those kits or the old Airfix/GMR Centenary coaches Rob?

 

 

Full kits Tim. To boost the rake I'm adding two composites [E149] and a brake third [D120] using the Hornby models. I've added curtains and some passengers as well as using the Comet centenary bogie.

Edited September 13, 2021 by gwrrob
added detail.

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

My guess, the existence or not of a do it yourself version doesn't factor into the decision making process at all.

 

Far more important in the decision making will be whether they think there is the potential to sell the required number of models - and a DIY version will have limited impact on that guesswork.

 

 

 

 

 

The availability of easy-to-assemble (and relatively cheap) plastic kits certainly hasn't had much effect on prototype choices when it comes to wagons. Indeed, one wonders if a popular kit actually encourages duplication in r-t-r form.

 

Along with buildings, wagon kits are the first steps into actually making things for most, and many go no further. I don't imagine that more-complex/demanding/expensive etched or multi-media coach or loco kits are likely  to offer a greater deterrent.

 

John 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[The Fatadder]

38 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

 

Full kits Tim. To boost the rake I'm adding two composites [E149] and a brake third [D120] using the Hornby models. I've added curtains and some passengers as well as using the Comet centenary bogie.

Looking very nice Rob, 

Are you adding the missing window frames to your additional Hornby ones?  I still have one Hornby brake third which for some odd reason I didnt reskin with Comet sides when I did the rest of the rake, which really stands out missing those window vents.  I think someone did a good job adding them from a sticker a while back.

 

I know I have seen a photo of the full set working on a Riviera service post war (as well as the well known photo of a full set (excluding the kitchen) on a Paddington - Weston).  I really must finish off the glazing and interiors of my set... 

 

One small thing, those roof boards should surely be saying Cornish Riviera Express rather than Limited for 1947

[gwrrob]

16 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

Looking very nice Rob, 

Are you adding the missing window frames to your additional Hornby ones?  

One small thing, those roof boards should surely be saying Cornish Riviera Express rather than Limited for 1947

 

It's a pity an etch isn't available that would be a neat fit. As for the roof boards I thought either were correct as the train was always called the 1030 limited by railwaymen. I can soon change them for products from John Peck if they offend.

 

Here's the three Hornby jobs for comparison.

[Waraqah]

3 hours ago, gwrrob said:

Afternoon Cornish leftovers.

 

Cornish leftover, yourself! Oh, wait, I see what you mean...

[Neal Ball]

That combination of King and Centenary carriages always looks good going through Brent. 

[The Fatadder]

2 hours ago, gwrrob said:

 

It's a pity an etch isn't available that would be a neat fit. As for the roof boards I thought either were correct as the train was always called the 1030 limited by railwaymen. I can soon change them for products from John Peck if they offend.

 

Here's the three Hornby jobs for comparison.

 

Definitely Express post war (both in the working timetables and on the coach) I have a copy of a late 47 formation (a Hawksworth third) clearly showing Cornish Riveria Express.  Although it’s on the coach side rather than the roof on the Hawksworth coach.  I still need to order the roof boards for both of my sets though.

 

 

 

 

[Mallard60022]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

The availability of easy-to-assemble (and relatively cheap) plastic kits certainly hasn't had much effect on prototype choices when it comes to wagons. Indeed, one wonders if a popular kit actually encourages duplication in r-t-r form.

Along with buildings, wagon kits are the first steps into actually making things for most, and many go no further. I don't imagine that more-complex/demanding/expensive etched or multi-media coach or loco kits are likely  to offer a greater deterrent.

John

Yes, I guessed that as well. Strange that all those years ago, Comet Coaches was born from three blokes who needed decent coaches for their layouts and they just couldn't get them back then. Thus they decided to get their own sides made and then thought, ooohhhh let's sell some to cover costs. Think it was sides first and then they went full Kit and Comet Models was the grown up version of the business. However, things have changed in over 35/40 years. 

However I was thinking more along the lines of the 'unusual and few ever built',  that they would think, no way we are going to sell more than a few of X even if Mr Sweet and his gang want one ! E.G. some of the ones we have been looking at on here.

Anyway, enough of Kits as Brian made the rule.

[gwrrob]

11 minutes ago, The Fatadder said:

 

Definitely Express post war (both in the working timetables and on the coach) I have a copy of a late 47 formation (a Hawksworth third) clearly showing Cornish Riveria Express.  Although it’s on the coach side rather than the roof on the Hawksworth coach.  I still need to order the roof boards for both of my sets though.

 

 

 

 

 

I use the waterproof versions of these, although there's others on the market too.

 

http://www.precisionlabels.co.uk/sl3.html?