SECR Birdcage Coaches

[Wickham Green]

Yes, very nerve wracking as there's precious little that's solid enough to hold onto while persuading levers into the gap ............ but I've got one open and know what's involved for the others now ..............

[trevor7598]

A word of warning for anyone considering a repaint of their Birdcages whilst apart.

The droplights are not part of the body moulding, but part of the glazing, so would have

to be painted separately, and there are rather a lot of them!.

[Jack P]

5 hours ago, trevor7598 said:

A word of warning for anyone considering a repaint of their Birdcages whilst apart.

The droplights are not part of the body moulding, but part of the glazing, so would have

to be painted separately, and there are rather a lot of them!.

 

It's do-able! I found the easiest approach was  to remove them from the body, and using a toothpick with a dab of paint, just run that around the edges, any over-spill was then cleaned up with another toothpick once the paint had dried. While they were apart I fitted sprung buffers/couplings too. (not pictured here)

 

 

I do still have 4 more of these things to go though... 

[trevor7598]

Jack P, that looks like a superb job!. Not for the feint hearted though, if skills are in doubt.

I received a free crimson set from Bachmann for helping them at the research stage, but

would not dare such a repaint!.

I hope Bachmann will do a set in malachite for the BR era, and maybe some departmental 

brakes too in the future. There are still many variants of these coaches for them to do.

[Steam here!]

Hi everyone, I just need some advice regarding the Bachmann SE&CR birdcage coaches "wellington brown" livery.

 

Does anyone know any suitable ready to run SE&CR liveried locos suitable to pull this set?

 

Also which SE&CR livery would be suitable?

 

Also could anyone tell when this livery would have been introduced?

 

I appreciate we only have so far:

 

Bachmann C class

Hornby H class

Hattons P class

Dapol D class (expected later on this year).

 

Thank you for all of your help, its much appreciated.

[Andy Hayter]

My understanding is as follows

 

The Wellington brown livery was introduced as a cost saving when coaches needed repainting during WW1.  

Although designed as a freight loco the C class in the simplified livery could be used since they ended up being used as mixed traffic locos.

Bachmann did an N class in SECR grey - also introduced in WW1 as a cost saving.  I think this was a special release together with a loco in SR green.  They certainly turn up on ebay. 

At a push the H Class would also do, although they would probably have been moving to a simplified livery about the same time the coaches were repainted into brown. 

[phil-b259]

24 minutes ago, Steam here! said:

Hi everyone, I just need some advice regarding the Bachmann SE&CR birdcage coaches "wellington brown" livery.

 

Does anyone know any suitable ready to run SE&CR liveried locos suitable to pull this set?

 

Also which SE&CR livery would be suitable?

 

Also could anyone tell when this livery would have been introduced?

 

I appreciate we only have so far:

 

Bachmann C class

Hornby H class

Hattons P class

Dapol D class (expected later on this year).

 

Thank you for all of your help, its much appreciated.

 

I believe that the unlined Wellington Brown was a WW1 'austerity' livery bought about by paint / labour shortages etc. This livery became the standard right through until the SECR ceased to exist.

 

Unfortunately this means the most suitable loco liveries are either an unlined green livery with yellow lettering introduced by Maunsell soon after his arrival in 1913 or a later unlined dark grey with large white numbers. The former has not been released (other than a P but with ROD insignia) while the latter has been done on a N class mogul and a collectors club version of the C class in the past.

 

I guess the saving grace would be that during WW1, repaints were not a priority so you could have got a loco with a scruffy Wainwright livery hauling a bunch of Wellington Brown coaches (on the basis that the coaches were even worse than the loco so had to be repainted out of necessity).

 

Another possibility might be in the early days of the new Southern Railway where a loco had been given the new SR colours but the coaches were yet to be painted. The difficulty with that is it took a while before the Southern settled on Olive Green and I think they initially used the LSWR sage green for loco repaints (not sure what they did with coaches - though they may have simply carried on with the pre-grouping Ashford / Brighton / Eastleigh liveries for a time).

 

However if your SECR locos are in the ornately lined out Wainwright livery then you really need to be looking for the 'Dark Lake' liveried Birdcage coaches with lining rather than the 'Wellington Brown' ones

[Steam here!]

Thanks Andy Hayter, phil-b259, Alex, for going through the trouble to help me, that made things much easier to understand.

I like the history as well, all of its very interesting.

 

Regarding an SE&CR grey loco:

The only ones I'm aware that have been produced ready to run:

 

Bachmann C class

Hattons P class

Dapol D class (not yet released)

 

I do have a set of the "wellington brown" that will need a loco.

So I was wondering, would the D class in SE&CR grey be a suitable loco?

 

I was thinking of using it for my branch line?

 

As I understand it the D class will be (scraped beading? (Grey).

 

Any thoughts?

[truffy]

@Steam here!

Of course, you could always apply rule #1!

[JSpencer]

I am not convinced that there would be any full or simplified Wainwight livery locos running around by 1920. No models exist for the Maunsell green in RTR yet (and that would require research and not many locos actually received it).

 

In SECR grey, there is the Bachmann N class, first release from the late 1990s in a box with an Olive green SR one too. They are often seen on a well known auction site and not that expensive (considering you get 2 locos for approx the RRP of a new N done by Bachmann today.

 

Then the collectors club C class which was done in grey. Easy to find on an auction site but often north of £200 (I think the exaggerate  the price, always  on sale there week in and week out). 

 

The P has been done in grey but not really apt. The H has not yet but I don't think they working Birdcages in those days, at least not the bigger newer sets that Bachmann have done.

 

The new D class might be the best choice (after the aging N). In Grey, although an express loco, by the 1920s, it was starting to become a small express loco (D1, E1, L, L1 were marginally better) so not entirely impossible on this rake.

Edited June 12, 2020 by JSpencer

[Guest Jack Benson]

Were the compos ever used as trailers in two-car sets?

 

And, what BR liveries has Bachmann released?

 

Thank you

[Pre Grouping fan]

22 minutes ago, Jack Benson said:

Were the compos ever used as trailers in two-car sets?

 

And, what BR liveries has Bachmann released?

 

Thank you

 

I can't answer your question on the composites but so far Bachmann have only released the coaches in BR Crimson and I could be wrong but before repainting would carry Malachite Green also produced by Bachmann. 

[RFS]

1 hour ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

 

I can't answer your question on the composites but so far Bachmann have only released the coaches in BR Crimson and I could be wrong but before repainting would carry Malachite Green also produced by Bachmann. 

 

These coaches have been released in BR Crimson, SR Malachite Green, SR Olive Green and SECR Wellington Brown.  Whatever your choice, you just need deep pockets ...

Edited April 2, 2021 by RFS

[Pre Grouping fan]

1 minute ago, RFS said:

 

These coaches have been released in BR Crimson, SR Malachite Green and SECR Wellington Brown.  Whatever your choice, you just need deep pockets ...

 

I realise other liveries have been produced, including SR lined Olive and SECR Lined Dark (which I have both sets of)  in addition ot the ones you mention.

 

The question from Jack though, was specifically about BR liveries.

[Wickham Green too]

A handful of composites were modified as Pull & Push trailers - as were a few of the brakes as Driving Trailers ..... though most of the conversions were from the steel-sheeted non-birdcage sets.

Full details in Gould, of course : study carefully, it's a very convoluted story !

[Steamport Southport]

27 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

A handful of composites were modified as Pull & Push trailers - as were a few of the brakes as Driving Trailers ..... though most of the conversions were from the steel-sheeted non-birdcage sets.

Full details in Gould, of course : study carefully, it's a very convoluted story !

 

Only one was reused.

 

One set (600) was extended to six coaches using spare coaches, then split up with the two surplus brakes being converted to Driving Trailers to make two Push/Pull sets. I have feeling it was slightly bomb damaged.

 

660 3505 with TC 6413

661 3433 with 50 foot TC 5301

 

Roxey make the relevant kits. Unfortunately they don't do the 50 foot Composite so you need to scratchbuild or alter something else for 661.

 

https://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/product/115/4c34-60ft-ex-secr-push-pull-driving-coach/

 

 

Jason

[Wickham Green too]

Another year passes ............

 

Being a lazy b*gger I'm not going to re-read all fifty pages of this thread* for an answer  -  but has the brake gear issue been discussed at all ??!?

 

* Most was concerning liveries if I recall.

[Nick C]

44 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Another year passes ............

 

Being a lazy b*gger I'm not going to re-read all fifty pages of this thread* for an answer  -  but has the brake gear issue been discussed at all ??!?

 

* Most was concerning liveries if I recall.

It takes but a few seconds to use the search box at the top - there's only one result for "brake gear" in this thread, and it's your post...

[Wickham Green too]

OK - so the answer's 'NO' !

[RFS]

On 23/09/2017 at 13:54, RFS said:

Got my set of 3 today but had a couple of problems. Firstly one of the NEM pockets was too tight and I couldn't get the Roco coupling in. Also couldn't get the tension lock back in either.  A little bit of filing to clear a small tag resolved that.

 

Then I found one of the brake coaches frequently derailing.  Turned out that one of its bogies was a bit tight and was restricting movement.  The brake shoes are all attached to a small slab of plastic which clips into the underside of the bogie. On mine this was at a strange angle.  Fortunately it was a fairly easy fix to unclip, and refix properly.  Now all OK.

 

See this post of mine - was fairly easy to fix the problem with the brakes. 

[Big James]

Since this thread has come to life I wonder if anyone can help me. I’ve recently been offered a set of malachite birdcages before I decide whether to get them or not. Can someone answer me to the question how long did they last in malachite? as I run my railway from 1951-1960 on the south eastern section. 
I’ve googled, tried various websites and even gone through my meagre book collection. And I can’t seem to get the answer.
 

Big James 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Big James

[Wickham Green too]

Most would still have been in malachite in 1951 and some probably retained it - much re-varnished - 'til withdrawn.

[Wickham Green too]

On 11/04/2022 at 18:52, RFS said:

See this post of mine - was fairly easy to fix the problem with the brakes. 

Sorry - should have been more specific ........ I meant the fact that Bachmann have moulded the brake cylinders roughly where the vee hangers should be and vice-versa ! 

 

This CAN be rectified without resorting to new components : Make sure the piston rods are firmly glued into the vac.cylinders then cut the brake cranks from the cross-shafts ; detach the  vee-hangers / cross-shaft assemblies ; cut the cylinders from the floor - clean up the holes and patch with plastic card ; reattach the cross-shaft assemblies at 37mm from the centre of the coach ; trim the top of the cylinders to suit the thickness of the patch and glue in place.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Wickham Green too

[Guest Jack Benson]

Hi,

 

An unrelated and possibly already mentioned comment, but Birdcages did travel further west in the last years of the Southern.
 

There is a rather short film clip of a set at Bournemouth Central leaving eastwards, unfortunately I have no clue how to edit and past it onto YouTube. 
 

But it is what it is, a bit of a mystery as to why a non-corridor set was so far off the reservation in the West of Hampshire. Unfortunately b&w film stock, no clue to the livery nor did the clip provide any commentary so no clue as to origin or return destination BUT exSECR stock around Bournemouth and even further west is well known just not this type of stock.

 

StaySafe

 

 

 

 

[Wickham Green too]

Was it a 'trio' set or a 'long' set of eight coaches or thereabouts ? ...... the latter were used for various specials and excursions - probably not hop pickers down in Bournemouth tho' !