Continental layouts vs British layouts

[trisonic]

I've seen plenty of UK based "train set" type layouts on here with bog standard rtr and rtp buildings with tracks going around and around too. Good luck to them the owners seem to enjoy them.

Basically people are the same all over the World;  some like to build stuff other see it as a chore to get over with as soon as possible so that they can run trains.....

Best, Pete.

[Pacific231G]

I

 

But 231G is also right that the standards of those who do scratchbuild in France (and elsewhere in Europe) are often just as good as the best in the UK.

 

I love that Midi catenary but how do they cope with modelling it on curves?

 

They don't have to at least not on this layout. The main line between Mios and Labouheyre that passes through Ychoux is dead straight for 43 kilometres (27 miles) in fact so geometrically straight that in Google Earth the maximum deflection I could measure over the entire length was about 15 metres. As that was near the middle I suspect it may simply be a great circle effect and the line really is geometrically dead straight

It was on this stretch of line on the 28th March 1955 that the world rail speed record was set at 320.6kph(199MPH) by CC7107 and the next day broken again by BB9004 at  331kph (206MPH) so the first train to travel at over 200MPH. Apart from more conventional trains the layout us used to demonstrate the record breaking trains and other later ones. 

 

I saw some very fine scratchbuilding of buildings at Orleans- where I saw this layout- and have at other French shows. There are enough detailed articles about building construction in the French model magazines to indicate that scratchbuilding of them is not esoteric. The popular plastic kits for French buildings tend to be deliberately underscale but there are some very fine cast structures from companies such as Sud France and Ateliers Belle Epoque.

[Ozexpatriate]

I know we are talking about Continental layouts here but I'm going slightly off topic with US references.

 

There certainly are regional 'fashions' in layout design - beyond space constraints or topological definitions like roundy/roundy versus shelf.

 

I'd suggest the following basic buckets:

 

Train set - flat board (all landscaping above track level)

 

Spaghetti bowl - the train set on steroids - maximum track per square foot (or square metre for those so inclined) with multiple levels, tunnels and bridges so you can always see more than one train any direction you look. (These were once very popular in big US layouts and are the old fashioned crowd pleaser - like Miniatur Wunderland. Clichés are welcomed here.)

 

Train in freelanced landscape - still very popular in the US, particularly with a focus on operation. (Almost any 'western' mining On30 layout will be in this category.)

 

Replicating an exact time and place - very popular in the UK, and increasing in popularity in the US.

 

One thing I commonly see in US layout practice that seems to be less common in UK layouts is the willingness to go below the nominal track level datum. This is driven by construction techniques and a lot of British layouts seem to treat the baseboard as an impervious stratum of bedrock.

 

Of course I am generalizing. Excellent (and deservedly famous) UK examples of scenery below the main track 'datum' are Calcott Burtle and Tetley's Mills. One of the reasons these layouts stand out is the fact that they leverage vertical depth.

[Ozexpatriate]

Funny that you of all people should mention that, since you're probably closer to my layout's location than anyone else on RMweb....!! When exhibiting Wiley City I have been asked (once the person in question had read the guide entry) how closely it is based on the real location...? I did reply that apart from the compromise of shrinking the site slightly and removing the wye trackwork arrangement, it's easily recognisable. Unfortunately good photos from the modelled era are hard to find, so I've got no evidence to hand to use as a comparison. This would be less of an issue for anywhere in the UK where the viewer is familiar with the location, but conversely, harder to get right because mistakes would easily be spotted.

Being interested in British outline, I have that issue in reverse - and have long decided to freelance the location, but base it as much as possible on real examples - without the requirement to get them 'exactly' right (invoking rule number 1).

[RhBBob]

Interesting that we have finally changed from 'Foreign' layouts, albeit only as far as 'Continental'   Perhaps European nations get their revenge by referring to 'England' when they mean Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.

 

A couple of points....(should that be turnouts ?)

 

At a UK exhibition in 2010, an excited official informed me that a visitor from Switzerland was present; of course, he came to see the Welsh Narrow Gauge layout !! 

 

Is my layout modern image ?  It was when I started this scale.......back in 1987.

 

Happy days !

[talisman56]

 

I'd suggest the following basic buckets:

 

Train set - flat board (all landscaping above track level)

 

 

 

Which would be very upsetting to the modeller who had a superbly constructed layout which was set at (or near) sea-level datum - apart from digging a Channel Tunnel, what has this modeller got to do to avoid his model being described as a 'train set' in your classification system?

[icn]

Perhaps European nations get their revenge by referring to 'England' when they mean Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.

 

 

The German speaking ones consistently do, much to my chagrin as a Scot.

 

 

I must say that I too get the impression that British Modellers emphasise detail and realism whereas Continental modellers tend to go more for lots of running trains, but then again I haven't really explored the world of modelling on the continent much. (Browsing Swiss layouts online, I've yet to find one with trains that are weathered -- they're all shiny new as if straight from the factory -- although Swiss trains in real life are relatively clean too, just not that clean.) I personally find the British approach much more interesting.

[RhBBob]

Which would be very upsetting to the modeller who had a superbly constructed layout which was set at (or near) sea-level datum - apart from digging a Channel Tunnel, what has this modeller got to do to avoid his model being described as a 'train set' in your classification system?

 

I recall an excellent modeller, Nick Cook, who despite producing a stunning finescale model of Newcastle Emlyn, constantly referred to his hobby as 'a toy train'.  It may have been to surprise the casual enquirer or simply the fact that we were and are seen as nerds in a world where creativity is produced in CGI, whether full size or in miniature.

 

Okay, rant over, I have two laptops and a desktop.....I must log off now and get a life

[Trains&armour]

Interesting that we have finally changed from 'Foreign' layouts, albeit only as far as 'Continental'   Perhaps European nations get their revenge by referring to 'England' when they mean Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.

 

 

 

The German speaking ones consistently do, much to my chagrin as a Scot.

 

As do most Dutch, but then the Brits refer to Holland while that is no more than a province of the Netherlands...Since my first visit to Wales and having a sister in law who lived in Scotland for a while, i have learned to use all the proper titles!

And now back to topic. As stated by Dutch Master, I am of course biased. I suggested  as much in my opening sentence. But I like to think I'm not that biased or close minded. Further research into the topic had me joining a Dutch forum, and while I met a lot of serious railway enthusiasts on there, in general their focus was on rolling stock and engines*. A detailed and realistic layout was not their primary aim. At least, not in the way I now think of what realism and detailing should be about, creating a believable landscape in which the railway seems to belong.

 

Sierd Jan

 

* With some notable exceptions, at lot of which were in the British section.....

[Ozexpatriate]

Which would be very upsetting to the modeller who had a superbly constructed layout which was set at (or near) sea-level datum - apart from digging a Channel Tunnel, what has this modeller got to do to avoid his model being described as a 'train set' in your classification system?

I'm not looking to pick a fight, the "train set" label wasn't directed at 'nice' hand crafted layouts and certainly not those replicating an exact time and place. Think of a roundy roundy surrounded by resin models or card kits all placed directly on single flat board - that's a 'train set'. I think perhaps you've conflated two different ideas I put forward.

 

Having said that, there is a British tendency to put everything on top of a baseboard and if you were to visit famously flat areas like the Somerset levels or the fabled canals of the Netherlands my sense is that you will see lots of visual features below the track level datum. At the seaside too.

 

Laying all the track on a baseboard is not usually realistic - unless you are modelling the bottom of a cutting and there are good examples that fit this approach - like a below street-level suburban station. (Even then there will be drainage ditches that are lower than the track level.)

 

I am a fan of open-frame construction with risers to support the track. This gives much more freedom to represent variations in terrain than an edge-to-edge plywood stratum.

 

Now if you were modelling the Nullabor Plain - the baseboard approach might work exceptionally well.  

[Mikkel]

Continental modellers are spoiled by the vast array of high-quality trains, buildings and accessories that are available on the market; the net result being that a lot of identikit layouts are knocking around. As UK modellers have not had the same level of 'support' for many years, this has encouraged more 'modelling'

 

That is also very much how I see it, as a Dane modelling the UK scene. Traditionally railway modelling in Denmark has been very loco centric and all about running trains, rather than actually modelling a believable landscape. Ironically, there has never been much RTR stock available for  Danish modellers, but rather than turning to building things yourself as many UK modellers have done, the Danes turned to the German scene and the multitude of RTR items there.

 

Indeed it is only in the past 5-10 years that clubs and a few individuals have actually started to model prototype locations. Interestingly, this trend has been accompanied by kitchen-table manufacturers starting to produce kits for locos and rolling stock - so we are seeing a much delayed repeat of what the UK modelling scene has been used to for years.

 

A lot of Danish modellers percieve UK outline modelling as akin to running poor quality Hornby locos from the 70s. When I show them sites like this, they usually fall off the chair.

[SM42]

I tend to agree with the original post, but I see it from the other side. I perceive better modelling abroad, especially in The Netherlands (coincidentally) . This of course could be due to my limited exposure to the creations of European (Not including the UK)  modeller's efforts and over exposure to the wide variety of modelling skill and style preferences  that modellers of this fair kingdom possess.

 

One thing I have noted is the apparent  popularity of modular layouts in mainland Europe and whilst they have a place they do nothing for me as I can't reconcile the sudden change of scenery every couple of feet or so. If anything could change my perceptions these would.

 

In terms of weathering, on refelection, the British do seem to be a lot braver when it comes to sloshing the weathering about. But I don't think lack of weathering on the rolling stock  spoils my enjoyment of a well presented, well observed and executed landscape for the gleaming funny looking rolling stock to roll through as much as it would for a British outline layout.

 

Perhaps I'm just used to European stock looking clean.

 

Andy

[AllScales]

Interesting conversation! Being Dutch (but having spent most of my life outside the country) I find the differences rathe interesting...

 

Having recently been to Miniatur Wunderland, I noticed some interesting differences between that and your average show here in the U.K., the main importance seems to be, viewing the layout as entertainment as a primary task.

 

To me that's exactly what the final result should be, when you are displaying a layout to great big world. Having an HO/OO 4.5 x 4.5 m layout where nothing's moving is pretty pointless! Especially when the bell ringing that's going on is not explained anywhere and the operators are blatantly ignoring the paying public!

 

Some other key differences were (both from Hamburg and Eurospoor a few years ago):

 

- I noticed groups of young girls without boys around or parents

- The layout (for that's what it is, despite the fact they don't use the word Train in the name) always have something moving

- Even the adults seem to be younger, usually with kids and wife in tow (often the wives were very interested)

- I don't get shovelled out of the way by people who haven't washed for days or weeks (I'm sorry but this has occurred several times now and there is no excuse for turning up smelling like you've lived in a chicken coop for the last week)

- Very little trainspotter talk (none of this "oh that engine never worked in that area")

I think all of that drives the layouts built and the detailing used, I think the best probably is somewhere in between.

 

Sierd: if I ever build a Dutch layout it would be Leek/Marum on the old tramway to Drachten, preferably with the steam train as it ran in the late 70's when I lived in Marum... Of corse having a Lima Koplopr would be a bit out of place, but it's what I'v got. I need to get some more loco's!

 

Just my €0.50 worth, as I'm collecting stock for a big Southern N gauge layout!

[Barry Ten]

 

 

Sierd: if I ever build a Dutch layout it would be Leek/Marum on the old tramway to Drachten, preferably with the steam train as it ran in the late 70's when I lived in Marum... Of corse having a Lima Koplopr would be a bit out of place, but it's what I'v got. I need to get some more loco's!

 

 

This gets a run on my layout occasionally:

 

 

One day I'd like to do it justice with an actual Dutch layout, but that's a dream for the future.

[SM42]

AllScales

You make some interesting observations about the exhibition crowd which I never really thought about. Having been only to Eurospoor I don't have much overseas exhibition experience but other events  I have been to, seem to draw a bigger cross section of people than one would expect. Perhaps the mainland European  attitude towards these sort of things is not clouded by the anorak and sad men image that its has in Britain.

 

As you say that might be the driver. The quest for ever greater modelling is there but so is the need to entertain (and it is perhaps seen as entertainment by the wider public) and entertain probably being the greater driver. Whereas in Britain the empahisis appears to be on accuracy and detail  as the majority of the exhibition public is perhaps less diverse and  more informed on the details and so a little more critical

 

Andy.

[AllScales]

SM42: I think you've probably hit the nail on the head! Model railways on the continent doesn't really have that anorak image (a little but not much).

 

One lament heard quite frequently is that the average age of the modeller is going up all the time. When I was a member of a local club a few years back, I was the youngest member and I was in my early 40's then....

 

Maybe in order to get more younger people involved there needs to be a bigger emphasis on entertainment and less on out and out accuracy.

 

Barry: Maybe one day when I have space to burn I'll get around to it, meanwhile an N gauge "wadloper" gets occaissional excercise on my N test track....

[Talltim]

Don't older people like entertainment? Don't younger people like accuracy?

[Jeff Smith]

An interesting and thought provoking thread. I am one who is taking a vacation on the 'other side' as it were. I have modelled in P4 for 25 years, entirely on my own and for my own selfish satisfaction (not many british outline P4 modellers in the US). I have spent countless hours researching minutiae to get just the right running condition for GWR, North London, Metropolitan and LT in specific time periods with the right colours etc. (my wife is extremely amused with my collection of red paints for LT and Metropolitan to get just the right one for each!) . Loco kits and scratchbuilds have taken 6 months or more, coaches 3 months etc. I am generally delighted with the outcome and tend to share it on RMweb but wanted a change that other family members might enjoy so have opted initially for a RTR Bachmann 0n30 8'x2' (with hidden loop) layout - mostly above track level. This really is an enhanced 'train set' but I want to get it up and running fairly quickly. What amazes me is the ease with which I am mentally making the change although some aspects I have had to make a concious decision to ignore. The period dosen't really matter - somewhere between 1900 and 1950; the location - somewhere in Pennsylvania as I have some PRR stock; the operation, round and round but with some shunting. Buildings will be Craftsman style laser cut wooden kits, track is ready made points and flexitrack. I have not given up finescale but may stay in O scale from now on......we'll see how it goes!

[tetleys]

Jan,

 

Good luck with your project, my knowledge of Continental layouts is limited to the exhibition circuit, I've seen the odd one that is the equal of UK based layouts but certainly too many follow cliches, cable cars, skiers descending to within a few meters of a balley railway line in the height of summer, mega naff or what? There is one German layout based on The Mossell Valley complete with DCC sound that looks and sounds marvellous and we've got some of our own Dutch landscape here in Lincolnshire that I've seen modelled really well.

 

Having said the scope for scenic modelling is a little more open to Continental Europe, single track lines passing round tighter curves and through more tunnels in the Alps is more likely than trying to achieve the same in Britain even in Scotland although the sadly now closed Midland main line through our Derbyshire Peak District.

 

My advice is to model what you are familier with.

 

Dave Shakespeare

[SM42]

Wow this is certainly getting to be an interesting an thought provoking thread.

I spent a little time considering this instead of working yesterday and I think that each country has it's own modelling style to some extent. Again I can only speak from exhibition observations so I may be wrong, but I find the British modeller to produce layouts with a darker tone. By that I mean the colours used tend to be bolder and darker.There also seems to be less landscape and more railway. Dutch modelling by contrast tends to be more pastel in appearance (and always stands out in the crowd because of this.) and seems to pay more attention the to lanscape . The Germans are very similar to the British. French and Belgian somewhere in between.

 

Certainly the modelling cliche is alive and well in mainland Europe

 

Perhaps it is just the grass always seems greener on the other side.

 

Andy

[steve1]

My advice is to model what you are familier with.

 

That's a bit limiting isn't it?

 

I've built 3 US layouts but I don't live there and they seem to have been well received. I'm not overly familiar with the US, I've only been there twice but I've read an awful lot and looked at a large number of photos. Why shouldn't that approach work for others?

 

There are a number of potential projects I may well model in future and I won't be 100% familiar with all of them (if any!) But I know how to do the research.

 

steve

[Trains&armour]

 

Some other key differences were (both from Hamburg and Eurospoor a few years ago):

 

- I noticed groups of young girls without boys around or parents

- The layout (for that's what it is, despite the fact they don't use the word Train in the name) always have something moving

- Even the adults seem to be younger, usually with kids and wife in tow (often the wives were very interested)

- I don't get shovelled out of the way by people who haven't washed for days or weeks (I'm sorry but this has occurred several times now and there is no excuse for turning up smelling like you've lived in a chicken coop for the last week)

- Very little trainspotter talk (none of this "oh that engine never worked in that area")

I think all of that drives the layouts built and the detailing used, I think the best probably is somewhere in between.

 

Sierd: if I ever build a Dutch layout it would be Leek/Marum on the old tramway to Drachten, preferably with the steam train as it ran in the late 70's when I lived in Marum... 

 

 

I can’t really comment on the visitors of shows, as I haven’t visited a single UK one yet and only visited a single Dutch show in the last 8 years.... Must make amends! But I did work as a sales assistant in a Model train shop in Groningen for a couple of years. Most of the customers were middle aged or retired men, and some youngsters. On a few noteworthy occasions a woman entered the shop! (Then found out she entered the wrong premises and left....)  Discussions were generally speaking about engines and rolling stock, about new releases, technical specifications, which brand was best. Layouts were rarely mentioned. This was in the beginning of the nineties, but things have undoubtedly changed. Or have they?

Allscales: I didn’t even know(remember) Drachten used to have a railway, and me having spent part of my youth there! It even had a quite large station, yard and workshops. Some research found this: http://www.spoorverledendrachten.nl/afbeeldingen/archief_tram05h_groot.jpg

Must have crossed the railway often enough, as my father used to work on an industrial estate on the other side of the railway line!

 

 

 

That's a bit limiting isn't it?

 

I've built 3 US layouts but I don't live there and they seem to have been well received. I'm not overly familiar with the US, I've only been there twice but I've read an awful lot and looked at a large number of photos. Why shouldn't that approach work for others?

 

There are a number of potential projects I may well model in future and I won't be 100% familiar with all of them (if any!) But I know how to do the research.

 

steve

Being familiar with the area you model certainly helps, But with the enormous amount of information available in books and on the internet nowadays I do feel that extensive research is an viable alternative. My planned layout is in Wales, and while I've visited it regularly, I can't claim to really know it. Will have to do most of my research back home.

 

 

Sierd Jan

PS  I’m staying in the Lynn Peninsula in the second and third week of July, so if anybody knows about exhibitions in about a 60 mile radius from Pwllheli during this period, I’d love to hear about it!

[bbishop]

Sorry Dave, I don't agree with you.  I've been interested in the London & South Western Railway and its successors for over 40 years, including some original research and have an exhibition layout on the circuit.  However, I'm involved in a couple of projects which are taking me out of my comfort zone and I'm enjoying the challenge.  The first is an Edwardian South Eastern and Chatham layout, for which I'm building rolling stock (not too difficult) and signals (a complete mystery, so I'm bending the ear of Secsoc members). 

 

The second project is my Fränkische Schweiz layout.  This requires a lot of secondary research; for example, Tony Adams (of this parish) and I spent Wednesday evening checking the location of the Direktion and Bahnverwaltung plates on the side of my BR 64 locomotives as they would run in 1960.  And yesterday I received a brass kit for a R 10 stake wagon - another whole lot of research.

 

So, if you want an intellectual challenge - model the continental prototype.

 

Bill

[Jeff Smith]

That's a bit limiting isn't it?

 

I've built 3 US layouts but I don't live there and they seem to have been well received. I'm not overly familiar with the US, I've only been there twice but I've read an awful lot and looked at a large number of photos. Why shouldn't that approach work for others?

 

There are a number of potential projects I may well model in future and I won't be 100% familiar with all of them (if any!) But I know how to do the research.

 

steve

 

Steve - Without seeing any of your layouts it may be unfair for me to comment but when you say 'well received' do you mean by British modellers (at exhibitions in the UK?) or by US based modellers, ie through published photos or articles?  Just curious.

 

Jeff

[steve1]

Steve - Without seeing any of your layouts it may be unfair for me to comment but when you say 'well received' do you mean by British modellers (at exhibitions in the UK?) or by US based modellers, ie through published photos or articles?  Just curious.

 

Jeff

 

At numerous UK exhibitions with all three and all of them have featured in UK magazines at some time - Black Rock Buffalo in Model Trains International, Steinbeck in Modern Railway Modelling and Duncan's Mine in Model Trains International, (twice) and Continental Modeller.

 

Steinbeck was sold at via RMWeb and Duncan's Mine was sold at an exhibition whilst I was operating it. (The new owner took it home at the end of the show.)

 

That was what I meant by "...they seem to have been to be well received.".

 

steve

 

steve