Great Western Railway Toplight Carriages

[coachmann]

I seem to recall the LNWR built some LH and RH corridor brake thirds.

[Coach bogie]

So it is another lets kill of other kit range pole again as there will be at least one less range of Toplight coach kits as the owner has said if one comes out he will be withdrawing his whole range.

Understandable. The profit margin on some of the kit ranges is so low, to be left with unsold stock can not only wipe out any profit but render the cottage industry in big debt.

 

I have been involved in several abandoned projects (including a 64XX) that had to be halted due to rumour control of an impending rtr version. The financial consequences of poor sales that fail to recover development cost are too risky when you are a one man (or woman) s.m.e. business.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Adrian Wintle]

So it is another lets kill of other kit range pole again as there will be at least one less range of Toplight coach kits as the owner has said if one comes out he will be withdrawing his whole range.

 

How many coach kit ranges have been killed off by manufacturers coming out with RTR versions?

 

Adrian

Edited March 31, 2013 by Adrian Wintle

[Garethp8873]

So it is another lets kill of other kit range pole again as there will be at least one less range of Toplight coach kits as the owner has said if one comes out he will be withdrawing his whole range.

 

Unfortunately this is way it is going to go eventually. The RTR companies are now starting to find they have less to work with and now having to look at what makes the kit building companies successful. A perfect example is Cambrian's BR Shark Brake and GWR Shunter truck. I imagine they have noticed a drop in sales of these two kits since the RTR versions have appeared on the scene. This maybe why we have seen Cambrian do alot more pre-grouping stock (Cambrian Railway and LSWR to name two) appear in their range as they least likely to appear as RTR form in the near future.

 

I myself don't have much experience in kit building and I have to either ask someone to do a commission of a model which can be costly or wait for the RTR companies to announce it in their range of that year.

 

Garethp8873.

[kandc_au]

Unfortunately this is way it is going to go eventually. The RTR companies are now starting to find they have less to work with and now having to look at what makes the kit building companies successful. A perfect example is Cambrian's BR Shark Brake and GWR Shunter truck. I imagine they have noticed a drop in sales of these two kits since the RTR versions have appeared on the scene. This maybe why we have seen Cambrian do alot more pre-grouping stock (Cambrian Railway and LSWR to name two) appear in their range as they least likely to appear as RTR form in the near future.

 

I myself don't have much experience in kit building and I have to either ask someone to do a commission of a model which can be costly or wait for the RTR companies to announce it in their range of that year.

 

Garethp8873.

Might be the way it is going, but from past experience of manufacturers, I think that the cottage industry has little to worry about if modellers want "scale and accurate"models

 

Khris

[Brassey]

I read somewhere in one of OS Nock's many GWR books that the Toplights were introduced for the "prestigious" North to West Expresses.  This being because presumably the dreadnoughts were too big for that route.  Can anyone verify this?

 

And yes the LNWR did build handed brake thirds.  The corridor was always on the "sunny" west side with a bench seat in the corridor for those who wanted to look out from that side!  The position of the brake end was determined in the marshalling diagrams of the time and that would have included GWR stock for any through carriages in the train.  However, most LNWR brake compos had centre brake sections thus avoiding this.

 

Peter

[Miss Prism]

I read somewhere in one of OS Nock's many GWR books that the Toplights were introduced for the "prestigious" North to West Expresses.  This being because presumably the dreadnoughts were too big for that route.  Can anyone verify this?

 

It's probably the wrong connotation to put on the Toplights, Peter, which were introduced as general 'go anywhere' vehicles, to supersede the clerestories, and not just for routes where the fat Dreadnoughts and the long Concertinas weren't allowed.

[Coach bogie]

I read somewhere in one of OS Nock's many GWR books that the Toplights were introduced for the "prestigious" North to West Expresses.  This being because presumably the dreadnoughts were too big for that route.  Can anyone verify this?

 

 

Peter

 

From photographs of the 20's/early 30's there was a tendency to reallocate former front line clerestory stock to the N-W and inter regional trains. The reference shots I use for building some of my clerestory stock were all taken at York and Newcastle, not on the GWR such was the amount of time spent not on GW metals. I am not aware of toplights being specifically built  for the N-W trains. By the 1930's specific 'cross country' stock was constructed to reduced width and length to allow for working conditions off the GWR.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Miss Prism]

Btw, Neal, you missed the obvious 'Full Brake' type in your questionnaire.

[KingJohn]

Although this post would appear to be primarily for '00', the following omissions would suit 'N' gauge as well. There appears to be no mention of 'Restaurant Cars'. My era is from 1950 to 1962, and I believe that the 12 wheel ones from Diag H15's were still in use during this period. Also I think Diag H19's were also in use. Both appear to have been refurbished in the 1930's and would suit most western region trains to the south west up toat least 1958/1960.

Btw, Neal, you missed the obvious 'Full Brake' type in your questionnaire.

[Coach bogie]

Although this post would appear to be primarily for '00', the following omissions would suit 'N' gauge as well. There appears to be no mention of 'Restaurant Cars'. My era is from 1950 to 1962, and I believe that the 12 wheel ones from Diag H15's were still in use during this period. Also I think Diag H19's were also in use. Both appear to have been refurbished in the 1930's and would suit most western region trains to the south west up toat least 1958/1960.

They were refurbished again, post war. This is where sales potentail issues arise as to which of three body conditions to produce, will result in the greatest sales.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[KingJohn]

As far as I am aware, the only changes to both of these post ww2 was internal refurb and a new paint job back into Chocolate and cream. The 1936/8 changes mainly appear to the change in bogies, from 4 wheel to 6 wheel and some alterations to the windows. I would think that this configuration would be of a more agreeable version to offer.

I doubt whether any of the mainstream outlets, i.e. Dapol or Farish would be able to produce these, but perhaps Etched pixels could add to their range of 70' Toplights to cover this.

They were refurbished again, post war. This is where sales potentail issues arise as to which of three body conditions to produce, will result in the greatest sales.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Coach bogie]

As far as I am aware, the only changes to both of these post ww2 was internal refurb and a new paint job back into Chocolate and cream. The 1936/8 changes mainly appear to the change in bogies, from 4 wheel to 6 wheel and some alterations to the windows. I would think that this configuration would be of a more agreeable version to offer.

I doubt whether any of the mainstream outlets, i.e. Dapol or Farish would be able to produce these, but perhaps Etched pixels could add to their range of 70' Toplights to cover this.

 

Photos show other minor alts, some to individual coaches only. For instance, window positions on kitchen side are not consistent across all the H15's.The upper window panelling around the diner section was all removed in the 1930's but it appears much of the kitchen area lost the remaining panelling. The roof layout changes as well when the kitchen equipment was modernised.

 

As far as agreeable - depends on your modelling period. Sides/kit suppliers have all concentrated on the post war layout with the H15.Only Trevor Charlton produced original window version, though David Geen is well on with his original windowed H15.

 

H15 excellent diagram to go for as a minor cut and shut to a H16

 

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Etched Pixels]

As far as I am aware, the only changes to both of these post ww2 was internal refurb and a new paint job back into Chocolate and cream. The 1936/8 changes mainly appear to the change in bogies, from 4 wheel to 6 wheel and some alterations to the windows. I would think that this configuration would be of a more agreeable version to offer.

I doubt whether any of the mainstream outlets, i.e. Dapol or Farish would be able to produce these, but perhaps Etched pixels could add to their range of 70' Toplights to cover this.

 

The existing ones were screenprinted from the Cav'n'dish range. The inks and materials used are not practical today and the volumes required for screenprinting are large.

 

I'm playing with some rather more modern techniques at the moment to build myself a 57ft Ocean Mails coach as a test then move onto other more generally interest stuff. Just need to find the willpower to draw up all that ... lining

 

Alan

[gwrrob]

Nice to see the toplight coaches [1907-22] did well in the recent poll.Coming second in the overall coaching stock catagory with 193 votes.

[Neal Ball]

Nice to see the toplight coaches [1907-22] did well in the recent poll.Coming second in the overall coaching stock catagory with 193 votes.

 

Maybe we will see some soon!!!!

[Neal Ball]

I agree with speed of new products, I've given up now. Hopefuklly something of interest might arrive soon and then in sufficient quantity to be available when I want to buy!

 

Having just spent almost a fortnight in the US it has taken me a whole to get back into the swing of things this week - will have a go again this weekend. The quartering is the issue.

 

Thanks again for the help!

[br-nse-fan]

As someone who does not have an abundance of time to work on the layout, let alone build the stock, I would welcome RTR Toplights... in any livery and length.

 

Looking at the kits that CooperCraft have available, I would much rather spend the same amount on a RTR product than one that I will probably not be happy with and never end up finishing or using.  If they were made to the standard of the Bachmann MK1 / MK2 and Hornby Maunsel / Pullman coaches, I would have no problem spending upwards of $50-$60 CAD per coach.  Mind you, at those prices, I would probably only purchase enough to make one or two complete sets.

 

And lets face it...  70' GWR coaches would look quite impressive on any layout! 

[OnTheBranchline]

I would be fine with re-releasing the Hornby Colletts, I just want something that relatively fits in the 'Great Western' livery from the 1920s to the early 1930s.

[Coach bogie]

 

And lets face it...  70' GWR coaches would look quite impressive on any layout! 

They do. That is why I had no choice but to teach myself how to build them myself. Let's face it. Would any rtr company really want the tooling nightmare of Concertinas?. It would not be a fast process for the machines to eject the body with all those recesses and as for fitting the separate hand rails that appear to be expected these days, into the same recesses.....

 

into the recesses ..

 

 

Mike Wiltshire

[kandc_au]

They do. That is why I had no choice but to teach myself how to build them myself. Let's face it. Would any rtr company really want the tooling nightmare of Concertinas?. It would not be a fast process for the machines to eject the body with all those recesses and as for fitting the separate hand rails that appear to be expected these days, into the same recesses.....

 

into the recesses ..

 

 

Mike Wiltshire

AND Mike,

Do you have time to do a tutorial on how you build them?

It would be good.

 

Khris

[Coach bogie]

AND Mike,

Do you have time to do a tutorial on how you build them?

It would be good.

 

Khris

 

I have a shelf full of unbuilt. I will look for a straight forward construction and produce a task by task thread..

 

Mike Wiltshire

[br-nse-fan]

They do. That is why I had no choice but to teach myself how to build them myself. Let's face it. Would any rtr company really want the tooling nightmare of Concertinas?. It would not be a fast process for the machines to eject the body with all those recesses and as for fitting the separate hand rails that appear to be expected these days, into the same recesses.....

 

So then maybe not the Concertinas... just the Collet bow-end stock... I'd even be happy with a 'design smart' version of the coach from Hornby with molded hand rails & handles... if done right, that is.  They already have the basis for the Collet coach in their (railroad) range, which are not that far off from from being decent models.  Adding some NEM pockets and/or CCM and flush windows would really help the existing model.  Anyone at Hornby listening? 

[Coach bogie]

So then maybe not the Concertinas... just the Collet bow-end stock... I'd even be happy with a 'design smart' version of the coach from Hornby with molded hand rails & handles... if done right, that is.  They already have the basis for the Collet coach in their (railroad) range, which are not that far off from from being decent models.  Adding some NEM pockets and/or CCM and flush windows would really help the existing model.  Anyone at Hornby listening? 

The Collett 57 ft stock has been discussed in another thread, and if Hornby were to go ahead with GWR, the prediction is, it would be these due to the lack of changes in body detail over forty years and the option of at least five livery options.

 

As for 70ft Collett stock, there is only the South Wales stock (which are 70ft versions of above). There are a few end challenges with some bow, some flat, some one of each, but there are enough diagrams to suit most trains.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Adrian Wintle]

The Collett 57 ft stock has been discussed in another thread, and if Hornby were to go ahead with GWR, the prediction is, it would be these due to the lack of changes in body detail over forty years and the option of at least five livery options.

 

Livery possibilities, although I haven't seen photos of the 57' Colletts with all of them:

Brown and cream with pseudo-panelling as built (mid '20s)

Brown and cream with crest - no lining, single lining, double lining variations (late '20s to '30s)

Brown and cream with shirtbutton - single or double lining variants ('35 to '40s)

Overall brown with shirtbutton (wartime)

Overall brown with crest (wartime)

Brown and Cream with Hawksworth livery (post war)

Brown and cream debranded (early BR)

Crimson and cream (BR)

Maroon (BR)

 

Some of these liveries might be a bit daring for a RTR manufacturer

 

Adrian