Aylesbury Town

[David Rickard]

Maybe your thinking of the late Geoff Williams' LNWR Aylesbury, in EM, started in the 1950's, modified in the 60's, featured a lot in the contemporary Model Railway News, a MRJ article, and a chapter in the Wild Swan book on the LNWR's Aylesbury branch - the first UK branch line.

 

Quite possibly. No idea where I saw it!

[David Bigcheeseplant]

The grounded coach body of Met coach 212

[Kenton]

First , thanks for the additional information on this shed - I will update the database.

 

The shed was never really replaced it was built as a single road 50 foot broad gauge shed that I have the drawings for

I was aware of the original Broad gauge shed built by the Wycombe Railway when they opened the line to Aylesbury in Oct 1863 - but not its exact size.

 

it was then doubled in length after only a few months then a lean to was put on one side to make it a two road shed there are drawings of this in the Wild Swan GWR engine shed book

I was under the impression that the 1871 "enlargement" was in fact a rebuild - I stand corrected.

 

around 1893 the roof on the shed was rebuilt with a north light saw tooth roof, but retaining the outside walls of the original building and extensions.

Again I was under the impression that the 1893 rebuild was just that a complete rebuild. Surly as the final structure shows no evidence of a lean-to structure, this helps confirm this?

 

 

The Turntable was out of use and removed in 1930, the roof was replaced by corrugated sheeting in 1946

Thanks.

 

and the line through the rear of the shed was added in the mid 1950s.

That seems late Ref the scale line drawing (in E.Lyons; An Historical Survey of Great Western Engine Sheds 1947; OPC (1974) ISBN 0 902888 16 1) which shows the through road. Unfortunately the photo is undated. That same photo shows the more "ornate" water tank previously mentioned

 

The original water tank was a wooden affair which drawings I have; it was replaced in 1899 by the type with decorative framework around the base with GWR coaling stage under the higher LNER coaling stage was added later to one side. The water tank was removed in the mid 1950s but the supporting framework and corrugated cover to the rear remained and a new tank was built closer to the shed more or less were the small turntable was located.

?? what was an LNER coaling stage doing here?? and why in addition?

 

 

The picture below taken by E C Grithiths around 1950, my Dad is within the group of loco crew on the left had side by the water crane fire devil.

Clearly showing the older 'ornate' tank.

 

Maybe your thinking of the late Geoff Williams' LNWR Aylesbury, in EM, started in the 1950's, modified in the 60's, featured a lot in the contemporary Model Railway News, a MRJ article, and a chapter in the Wild Swan book on the LNWR's Aylesbury branch - the first UK branch line.

Let's not try to confuse this shed with the totally different and separate (and earlier) Aylesbury shed at Aylesbury High Street station.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

The second tank and third tank The two coal platforms were for the GWR soft welsh coal and the LNER hard coal although most of the times the N5 was coaled directly from the wagon in the coal road, note that in the first photo the higher LNER coal stage is wood while in the second it has been rebuilt in brick.

 

The line through the back of the shed was put through in the 1950s as my Dad was called back in the army due to Suez crisis and when he returned to the railway the line had been put through, although I think a number of time locos went through the back wall by mistake and it need to be rebuilt!

[Kenton]

The line through the back of the shed was put through in the 1950s as my Dad was called back in the army due to Suez crisis and when he returned to the railway the line had been put through, although I think a number of time locos went through the back wall by mistake and it need to be rebuilt!

Just goes to show you can't always trust what you read in books.

 

 

Thanks again David. The water tank structures and their positions relative to each other, along with the coal stage(s) are now made much clearer by those photographs.

 

That third photo in the last post really well illustrates the lean-to structure that was sheltering the coaling road. Quite a substantial structure is there any confusion here with the "lean-to" 1871 "extension" against the 1863 shed?

The brickwork also appears, from those photographs, to be consistent with a single build in 1893.

 

Also it hasn't gone unnoticed in that photo of 5024 the northlight pattern roof is showing its original slate and glass condition.

 

the second hand round topped windows in the flat top openings!

I wonder when that happened and why?

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Kenton have you got the Wild Swan GWR London Division Engine sheds as it has drawings of the 1870 lean to the original broad gauge shed, plus the 1899 turntable and water tank, I have studied the various drawings and photos and the windows of both the original 1862 and the 1870 lean to relate to the shed in its final form as the windows on either side are different sizes and do not line through.

 

The water tower possibly got replaced due to it being unsafe and a driver being decapitated as setting back an engine in to the shed as supporting pillar on the tank was close to the cab opening and he was looking the other way, if you look at the later photos the supporting pillar was removed and replaced with a girder set further back.

 

The minutes of the LNER and Met in 1946 authorize a cost of £1200 to an agreed repair to the loco shed which is in danger of collapse, I would have though that the shed was reroofed then although the corrugated sheet was only applied to the front five saw teeth on the roof the one at the rear retained state and glass covering.

 

The lean to on the coaling stage I would have been added as a wartime blackout precaution.

[Kenton]

Kenton have you got the Wild Swan GWR London Division Engine sheds as it has drawings of the 1870 lean to the original broad gauge shed, plus the 1899 turntable and water tank,

Sadly not YET - but obviously one I need to acquire

 

The OS map of 1898 clearly shows the turntable in situ between the shed and the (a) water tank.

 

I also still have 1871 as the date of the rebuild (or extension/lean-to) is this also wrong in references? or was the lean-to temporary.

I still cannot quite get my head round why a lean-to structure should be built to the same roof height and in the same design and matching brick work as the original 1 track 1863 shed and with removal of the resultant internal wall. To my interpretation a lean-to is seen as a temporary measure and consists of a wall leaning on another wall for support, usually having a single pitched roof.

 

Also looking at the plans you posted for the 1863 shed it was clearly intended to be a through shed.

The 1870/1871 extension clearly made it dead-ended as was the 1893 "replacement/rebuild".

 

 

 

I have studied the various drawings and photos and the windows of both the original 1862 and the 1870 lean to relate to the shed in its final form as the windows on either side are different sizes and do not line through.

I would agree that this is pretty good evidence of the two external wall not being constructed at the same time. Though there is the fly in the ointment here as the office/stores block along half the southern and all of rear wall are also clearly in existence and may well have been part of the 1893 rebuild. It would then be reasonable to expect some asymmetry in window placement. I also can't get away from that photo of the side with the bike - the brickwork looks continuous from the ground up to nearly the top of the northlight gables. This suggests that this wall was built as intended for a northlight pattern roof from the ground up and not as a re-roofing exercise or addition to an existing 1871/63 wall.

 

 

The water tower possibly got replaced due to it being unsafe and a driver being decapitated as setting back an engine in to the shed as supporting pillar on the tank was close to the cab opening and he was looking the other way, if you look at the later photos the supporting pillar was removed and replaced with a girder set further back.

Yes I see that now, thanks for pointing it out and the explanation sounds very plausible. The railways were dangerous places to work - especially for those perhaps unfamiliar with the layout.

 

The minutes of the LNER and Met in 1946 authorize a cost of £1200 to an agreed repair to the loco shed which is in danger of collapse, I would have though that the shed was re-roofed then although the corrugated sheet was only applied to the front five saw teeth on the roof the one at the rear retained state and glass covering.

That seems rather expensive for some asbestos sheeting. Though perhaps more was required to cover the rear wall and repair the offices/stores building along the back wall following a run through as per the photo in post #24 above.

 

The lean to on the coaling stage I would have been added as a wartime blackout precaution.

That seems an odd solution. Most locos would have been on the main shed tracks to take on water. The LNER locos would take on coal from outside that lean-to either in front of it next to the LNER coal stage or on the southern shed road. The only ones that would potentially be obscured from air raiders would have been loco's pulled fully under it using the GWR coal stage.

 

But I'm yet to see a pre-war photo to convince me.

 

This has been a very interesting discussion - thanks again for all the new facts I'll definitely need to update the web site.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Sadly not YET - but obviously one I need to acquire

 

The OS map of 1898 clearly shows the turntable in situ between the shed and the (a) water tank.

 

I also still have 1871 as the date of the rebuild (or extension/lean-to) is this also wrong in references? or was the lean-to temporary.

I still cannot quite get my head round why a lean-to structure should be built to the same roof height and in the same design and matching brick work as the original 1 track 1863 shed and with removal of the resultant internal wall. To my interpretation a lean-to is seen as a temporary measure and consists of a wall leaning on another wall for support, usually having a single pitched roof.

 

Also looking at the plans you posted for the 1863 shed it was clearly intended to be a through shed.

The 1870/1871 extension clearly made it dead-ended as was the 1893 "replacement/rebuild".

 

I will scan in the drawings from the Wild Swan book an email them to you later tonight, you should then get an idea of my thinking, the drawings are dated November 1870 so the work may have not happened until 1871, the lean to does make the shed look rather weied and in the text describes it as a "mean Squat lean-to, displeasing and ill-suited for the proper stabling of engines, in fact the lean to looks like its half the size of the original build in volume. Also in the book are plans for a doublng of the length of the shed in 1913 but this never happened, but the floor plan does show the location of the wall and windows and these match the floor plan of the 1870 drawings.

 

The lean-to shelter must have been added prewar as it appears in the photo of 5024 I posted above, so I got it wrong on the war time measure!

 

Not many loco were coaled at Aylesbury mostly tank engines the 14XX and 64XX from the Western and the N5 from the Eastern but as I said before it was normal practice to coal direct from a wagon in the siding behind with the cover over the coal stage.

 

what web site do you plan to update?

 

David

[Kenton]

what web site do you plan to update?

The Loco Shed Index. We are splitting the database away from the Loco Index (back to where it was) as we have have been having big problems with the old site. Things are in a bit of flux at the moment as we get the data over and cleaned up again along with adding some new data sent in.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

The Loco Shed Index. We are splitting the database away from the Loco Index (back to where it was) as we have have been having big problems with the old site. Things are in a bit of flux at the moment as we get the data over and cleaned up again along with adding some new data sent in.

 

I can't see any info of the loco sheds at Wycombe and Thame did you want me to send you some bits accross?

 

Here is the plans of the 1870 lean-to extention and also the proposed 1913 extention at Aylesbury, you can clearly see how the windows and supporting pillars remained the same through out the evolution of the shed.

 

David

[Kenton]

I can't see any info of the loco sheds at Wycombe and Thame did you want me to send you some bits accross?

The transfer process is still ongoing - one shed at a time - I estimate there is about 400+ to go mostly from "London, middle England and eastern" I'll bring them to the top of the list. But anything is always welcome.

 

Here is the plans of the 1870 lean-to extention and also the proposed 1913 extention at Aylesbury, you can clearly see how the windows and supporting pillars remained the same through out the evolution of the shed.

Hmm. That is pretty conclusive on the lean-to extension.

I know that the original was broad gauge (bigger engines) but that lean-to looks really narrow and low in comparison.

The rationale for the extension and 1870/71 rebuild must have been the conversion of the line to standard gauge in Sept 1870.

 

That lean-to wall must have been increased in height with skillful brickwork or simply taken down and rebuilt using the same foundations and plan in 1893.

 

Thanks again for the clarifications.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I must admit the lean-to does look a bit silly but it did seem to last at least twenty years in that form, it seems that they raised the original walls from just over the window openings when they added the saw tooth roof, also when the shed was re-roofed in 1946 the saw tooths were raised by about three courses of bricks but the rear saw tooth was left the original height and covering in slate have a look at the photos and you can see the fresh mortar.

 

I must admit I do research from trusted places, minutes and drawings and don't rely on cheaper books that seems to copy mistakes from earlier books.

 

David

[Kenton]

I must admit I do research from trusted places, minutes and drawings and don't rely on cheaper books that seems to copy mistakes from earlier books.

... or the free internet, that seems to copy mistakes from both and adds a few of its own along the way

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I have managed to get a few more photos of Aylesbury and plan to model 1473 as shown here.