Metropolitan British Thompson Loco-A 3D print project

[OliverSR]

Final proper update from me now.

The display model is finally finished and the person who I asked has done an amazing job on it.

Here are some photos but I imagine my photography lets the model down slightly.

Anyway here they are.

This goes to show what can be done with this kit and is a level of finish for me to aspire to.

You may see one of these photos on the Radley Models website in the next week or so and the model will be sent off to be displayed at the Radley Models stand.

If anyone is interested I still have a couple of sets of parts for the kit which I am looking to sell at a discounted rate, Message me if you are interested.

If anyone builds their own version of this loco then feel free to post them on this topic.

OliverSR

[decauville1126]

Final proper update from me now.

The display model is finally finished and the person who I asked has done an amazing job on it.

Here are some photos but I imagine my photography lets the model down slightly.

Anyway here they are.

This goes to show what can be done with this kit and is a level of finish for me to aspire to.

You may see one of these photos on the Radley Models website in the next week or so and the model will be sent off to be displayed at the Radley Models stand.

If anyone is interested I still have a couple of sets of parts for the kit which I am looking to sell at a discounted rate, Message me if you are interested.

If anyone builds their own version of this loco then feel free to post them on this topic.

OliverSR

 

pm sent

[OliverSR]

I still have ONE REMAINING set of parts for the kit which I am looking to sell at a heavily discounted rate so message me if you are interested.

OliverSR

[GoingUnderground]

I still have ONE REMAINING set of parts for the kit which I am looking to sell at a heavily discounted rate so message me if you are interested.

OliverSR

 

PM sent.

[GoingUnderground]

I've never seen a MET loco looking like this before. Are you sure it had flat ends? I would love to see some prototype photos of it.

 

It is very well documented. The first 10 electric locos were the Westinghouse camel back design (1 - 10), the next 10 were flat fronted ( 11 - 20 ). There are plenty of photos in the standard reference books of the flat fronted locos. They look so similar to the MetroVics as the intention was to rebuild the BTH locos into MetroVics reusing as much as possible. I have my doubts about how much of the Westinghouse locos' could have been reused as the design is so different to the MetroVics..

[LU_fan]

It is very well documented. The first 10 electric locos were the Westinghouse camel back design (1 - 10), the next 10 were flat fronted ( 11 - 20 ). There are plenty of photos in the standard reference books of the flat fronted locos. They look so similar to the MetroVics as the intention was to rebuild the BTH locos into MetroVics reusing as much as possible. I have my doubts about how much of the Westinghouse locos' could have been reused as the design is so different to the MetroVics..

 

It may be very well documented, but it's nothing i've ever seen. I have seen the camel backs and the MetroVics, but not these. And as i don't have any "standard reference books" at hand i can't check it up either.

[GoingUnderground]

It's true that there are very few photos of the flat fronted locos around, and that they all seem to be in out of print books and were taken from private collections. There don't seem to be any on the internet. But just because you haven't seen one doesn't mean that they didn't exist, or that Oliver's made a terrible mistake, which is what you were implying.

 

I will admit to being very surprised myself when I first saw a picture of a BTH loco, they do seem to be the forgotten locos. Researching the history of the MetroVics reveals why the MetroVics and the BTH locos looked so similar. The MVs were originally intended to be a rebuild of the BTH locos and also of the earlier Westinghouse camel back locos reusing as much of the original locos as possible, which in the case of the BTH locos was most of the body shell. However that wasn't what happened with only No. 17 being rebuilt (source: KR Benest), as the pictures (there are two) taken in 1922 of at least 15 complete body shells in Vickers works in Barrow prove.

 

If you want to see a picture of a BTH loco try the following sources:

• I believe the most recently published book with a photo of a BTH loco is David Bownes's "The Metropolitan Railway", ISBN 0-7524-3105-6 which has a picture on page 62 that I haven't seen before of No.13. This last book was published By Tempus Publishing and the LT Museum in 2004 so may still be available. 2nd EDIT: I was wrong, Clive Foxell's book, see below was published in 2012 and is the most recent.
• Bill Simpson's "History of the Metropolitan Railway - Volume 1", ISBN 1 899246 07 X, published 2003, has a picture of BTH No.11 on page 59. 
• The same picture of No.11 at Willesden Green is used, much enlarged to a two page spread (pages 34 & 35), in Ian Huntley's "London Underground Surface Stock Plan Book 1863-1959", ISBN 0-7110-1721-2 published in 1988.
• The late Ken Benest's "Metropolitan Electric Locos", page 18 of the 1963 edition also has the same picture of No.11 at Willesden. It has a second picture on page 18 of two BTH locos, (Nos 19 & 20) and a third unidentified loco which is probably a BTH taken inside Neasden depot.

These last two books are definitely are out of print, but you may be able to find copies on the internet, that's how I bought mine.

 

EDIT: Just been digging around, and the photo of No.11 is Photo 2734 from the Locomotive Publishing Company. The LPC was bought by Ian Allan Publishing and later acquired by the NRM, http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=756-lpc&cid=-1#-1 Bill Simpson attributes the same photo to the H C Casserley collection. 

 

2nd EDIT:

More pictures of the BTH locos:

• Clive Foxell's "Images of 150 years of the Metropolitan Railway, ISBN 978-0-7524-7009-2, published 2012, page 41 shows No.11 and an unidentified Camel Back, plus an interior shot of BTH loco, very different from the interior layout of a MetroVic.
• Bill Simpson's book referred to above also has a picture on page 73 of No.16 with a Chesham bound train at the unreconstructed Harrow which was the changeover point from electric to steam traction, and a larger version of the Neasden depot shot used in Ken Benest's book which clearly shows 3 BTH locos. Immediately opposite the Neasden photo on page 74 is a picture of a MetroVic taken from a similar angle which emphasises just how similar the two locos were and just how much the MVs owed to the BTH design.
• Dennis Edwards & Ron Pigram's "The Golden Years of the Metropolitan Railway", ISBN 1-870630-11-4, first published 1983, my edition is the 1988 one which shows an unidentified BTH loco in service passing what looks like the old Neasden depot. Page 59 has a shot of No.15 at Harrow, but describes it incorrectly as a "Metro-Cammell" electric loco.
• Dennis Edwards & Ron Pigram's "Metro Memories", ISBN 1-870630-95-5, published 1977, has on page 27 a different picture of No.11 at Neasden apparently taken in 1907, the year that the locos were acquired new by the Met.
• Dennis Edwards & Ron Pigram's "The Romance of Metroland", ISBN 0-85936-061-X, published in 1979 has the same picture of No.11 at Willesden as was used in Ken Benest's and Ian Huntley's books, but this time attributed to Lens of Sutton, Lens were the publishers of Ken Benest's book.

So that's Nos. 11, 13, 15, 16, 19 & 20.

 

3rd EDIT:

• Mike Horne's "The Metropolitan Line", ISBN 185414-275-5, published 2003, has an almost front on view of No.11 on page 32 at Wembley Park.

This last photo might interest you, Oliver, as it clearly shows the running number on the front centre panel of the loco with Met Rly on the buffer beam. It also seems to have a destination blind with white letters on a black background rather than the more usual white board with black lettering that we know from the other pictures and from the MetroVics.  The shot is not attributed or dated. Mike Horne has written on his Metadyne web site that the destination blind boxes probably had a life of 5-6 years which would put the photo as pre-1912 possibly. Given the quality of the photo that is remarkable as it would have been taken over 100 years ago.

 

[Engineer_London]

Very interesting discussion on the electric locomotives and the reconstructions, thanks.

 

Believe the LT Museum has an interior picture, dated 1921:

 

http://www.ltmcollection.org/photos/photo/photo.html?_IXMAXHITS_=1&_IXSR_=vdaIxC6uYPt&IXsummary=results/results&IXsearch=metropolitan&_IXFIRST_=369&IXenlarge=i00006fk

 

May be of interest in detailing. Hope I haven't missed an earlier posting of the same information.

[GoingUnderground]

Very interesting discussion on the electric locomotives and the reconstructions, thanks.

 

Believe the LT Museum has an interior picture, dated 1921:

 

http://www.ltmcollection.org/photos/photo/photo.html?_IXMAXHITS_=1&_IXSR_=vdaIxC6uYPt&IXsummary=results/results&IXsearch=metropolitan&_IXFIRST_=369&IXenlarge=i00006fk

 

May be of interest in detailing. Hope I haven't missed an earlier posting of the same information.

 

That's the interior picture on page 41 of the the Clive Foxwell book where he attributes it to the LT Museum. I was looking earlier today for BTH loco exterior pictures. Thank you for your help. The flat front is very obvious with the 3 window look.

[LU_fan]

But just because you haven't seen one doesn't mean that they didn't exist, or that Oliver's made a terrible mistake, which is what you were implying.

 

I am not implying that he's made any kind of mistake. I was just surprised to find out that these actually existed. There are plenty of shots of the camel backs online and, obviously, plenty of MetroVic shots.

 

Anyway... I have looked up the book sources you mentioned and found pretty good deals on Ian Huntley's, Clive Foxell's and Mike Horne's books.

Using the Amazon "Take a look inside" function though i managed to see the photo in Foxell's book. I can't imagine how working within those locos was like.

[GoingUnderground]

I am not implying that he's made any kind of mistake. I was just surprised to find out that these actually existed. There are plenty of shots of the camel backs online and, obviously, plenty of MetroVic shots.

 

Anyway... I have looked up the book sources you mentioned and found pretty good deals on Ian Huntley's, Clive Foxell's and Mike Horne's books.

Using the Amazon "Take a look inside" function though i managed to see the photo in Foxell's book. I can't imagine how working within those locos was like.

 

Well, in that case your comment "Are you sure it had flat ends?" must mean something different to you because to me it sounded like you were inferring that the model was wrong. To my eyes, it's a very good model.

[Engineer_London]

Couple more picture references:

 

a 3/4 'builder's photograph' of loco 15

Reproduced in 'Metro-Cammell 150 years of crafsmanship', image attributed to HMRS, possibly HMRS reference ABV124;

 

a 3/4 photograph loco 11, not possible to guess location - not the 'Willesden Green' picture shown in Huntley.

opposite page 50, 'The Metropolitan Railway', Oakwood Press, by J. C. Y. [Clifford] Baker - also an accomplished modeller and former Met. apprentice. .

 

Long ago, Mr Baker's book was, with the aid of my father, my introduction to the history of the Met and the start of my interest in its stock and locos and operations.  Compared to modern books it is a little dated, but continues to be worth an occasional look as an adjunct to ongoing research. 

 

Both books will appear on second-hand stalls occasionally.

[LU_fan]

Well, in that case your comment "Are you sure it had flat ends?" must mean something different to you because to me it sounded like you were inferring that the model was wrong. To my eyes, it's a very good model.

 

I didn't mean that the model was wrong, just simply that some angles on vehicles are very subtle. And to me, a straight, flat end just seemed so strange.

[Londontram]

Time to move on me thinks gentlemen - excellent model by the way

[Lord of Narnia]

Agreed. Lovely model too.

 

The picture of the interior got me thinking. I wondered if the photo was pre 1913 as there appeared to be a lot of the equipment relating to the BTH electromagnetic type which was removed c.1913-14 and placed on 10 1913 saloon stock motor cars. This allowed the 10 Westinghouse equipments destined for these 1913 saloon cars to be given to locos 11-20 along with the 7'9'' bogies and therefore all 20 locos had BW equipment. 

[Engineer_London]

A really good point you make, LofN:

 

"...wondered if the photo was pre 1913 as there appeared to be a lot of the equipment relating to the BTH electromagnetic type..."

 

I'm inclined to agree, and it's worth looking at.  Have been putting off ordering a large print of that interior view - will not delay much longer!   

[OliverSR]

As all the parts I have left over there is little more for me to say however anyone who purchased this kit I encourage you to post progress as it will be good to hear what others have done with the kit. I also hope you will take an interest in future 3D printed London Underground projects, the next of which is a Met 14 ton ballast brake.

OliverSR

[GoingUnderground]

Hi Oliver,

 

Just out of interest, did you use a Tenshodo SPUD or a Black Beetle, and did you add any extra weight to help with adhesion? In your video it seems capable of a fair turn of speed with presumably 4 of Phil Radley's Dreadnoughts in tow.

[GoingUnderground]

Couple more picture references:

 

a 3/4 'builder's photograph' of loco 15

Reproduced in 'Metro-Cammell 150 years of crafsmanship', image attributed to HMRS, possibly HMRS reference ABV124;

 

a 3/4 photograph loco 11, not possible to guess location - not the 'Willesden Green' picture shown in Huntley.

opposite page 50, 'The Metropolitan Railway', Oakwood Press, by J. C. Y. [Clifford] Baker - also an accomplished modeller and former Met. apprentice. .

 

Long ago, Mr Baker's book was, with the aid of my father, my introduction to the history of the Met and the start of my interest in its stock and locos and operations.  Compared to modern books it is a little dated, but continues to be worth an occasional look as an adjunct to ongoing research. 

 

Both books will appear on second-hand stalls occasionally.

 

Thank you for the information about those two books, I've now added them both to my collection. The Metro-Cammell book is excellent, even the paper dust jacket has one of the clearest pictures of the Camel Back that I've seen. 

[OliverSR]

I have used a tenshodo with several weights from wheel balancing kits above it and once warmed up it can run well though I plan to fit pickups to the trailing bogie for better pickup. The coaches are a mock set of the bluebell railways coaches made out of ratio coaches by Matt of the bluebell model railway which I bought from him. Also a ratio 4 wheeler which was an experiment in teak effect paint with an old coach body and I transferred it up to make it similar to coach number 353.

I do plan to get drednoughts in future but I will wait till current projects are done.

OliverSR

[GoingUnderground]

I have used a tenshodo with several weights from wheel balancing kits above it and once warmed up it can run well though I plan to fit pickups to the trailing bogie for better pickup. The coaches are a mock set of the bluebell railways coaches made out of ratio coaches by Matt of the bluebell model railway which I bought from him. Also a ratio 4 wheeler which was an experiment in teak effect paint with an old coach body and I transferred it up to make it similar to coach number 353.

I do plan to get drednoughts in future but I will wait till current projects are done.

OliverSR

 

Thanks Oliver,

 

In that case I'll fit 2 SPUDS as the white metal dreadnoughts are heavy and it may need a bit of grunt to get them rolling, plus some ballast weights.

[GoingUnderground]

Having had a chance to look in detail at the kit, I've started reworking the everything from the solebar down.

 

So far I've added a solebar and extended the buffer beam, replaced the buffers with scratchbuilt efforts that look a bit more like the prototype. This also sorts out the issue with the ones on the chassis as supplied being too close together, very noticeable when you buffer up the loco with other rolling stock. I've stiffened the chassis with some spare Code 100 rail, it also removes the slight "bowing". I've still to add the lamp irons and modify the bogies so they look more like the BT-H bogies, the ones that Phil supplies are from his T Stock kits. I've got some ballast weights that I'll be adding so that with the second SPUD it will have a bit more pulling power. I'll try to post some pictures over the coming days.

[OliverSR]

Good to hear from someone starting the kit.

I hope your detailing and work goes well and I think you will be able to improve the chassis which was a bit of a compromise.

It would be great to see photos of your progress and it should be useful for others who want to detail the kit.

OliverSR

[Lord of Narnia]

Remember the BTH bogies were removed in 1913 and used on new saloon stock cars. 7'9 plate frame bogies with Westinghouse motors were latterly used until withdrawal.

[GoingUnderground]

Here is a picture showing what I've achieved so far. I've also stiffened up the body sides by glueing a length of code 100 rail along each long side. it also adds a bit of weight to the body.