What have you done with your Keyser kit

[Sandhole]

1 hour ago, Barclay said:

Can anyone advise me on this K's 1361 I have bought off ebay?

 

The body looks pretty decent but the chassis will need a lot of adjustment including conversion to EM gauge. I have not seen this incarnation of the K's wheel before though. Good strong wheels on what look like plain axles. All insulated. Perhaps a brass bush between wheel and axle. Keyhole type holes in the frames for the brass bearings. Would these have been pre-assembled and quartered at the factory, and if so, is it possible to get them off the axles without damage and re-fit them to a standard EM axle by, say, Gibson? Thank you.

 

Out of interest the chassis will need moving back to put the rear drivers in the correct position and the front portion of the wheelbase is too long - curious anomalies.

 

 

Honestly, Gibson the whole chassis.
Mainframes, wheels, rods the lot. 
I would say use the K's chassis, but I never realised the wheel spacing was wrong.
You had to specify OO or EM when you bought these early kits.
Maybe use the connecting rods and cylinders from the kit.
I'm intrigued to see what you are going to use this beast for.
Regards, 
Chris.

 

[locomad2]

1 hour ago, Barclay said:

Can anyone advise me on this K's 1361 I have bought off ebay?

 

The body looks pretty decent but the chassis will need a lot of adjustment including conversion to EM gauge. I have not seen this incarnation of the K's wheel before though. Good strong wheels on what look like plain axles. All insulated. Perhaps a brass bush between wheel and axle. Keyhole type holes in the frames for the brass bearings. Would these have been pre-assembled and quartered at the factory, and if so, is it possible to get them off the axles without damage and re-fit them to a standard EM axle by, say, Gibson? Thank you.

 

Out of interest the chassis will need moving back to put the rear drivers in the correct position and the front portion of the wheelbase is too long - curious anomalies.

 

 

 

Early type K's wheels if you undo the frame screws and remove the cross spacers, squeeze the frames together and the wheel axles will come off. Not a great fan of the small 10BA nuts holding the coupling rods nor the studs in the wheels often shear under load or the nuts come off use lock thread. Think they came pre quartered

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, Sandhole said:

Honestly, Gibson the whole chassis.
Mainframes, wheels, rods the lot. 
I would say use the K's chassis, but I never realised the wheel spacing was wrong.
You had to specify OO or EM when you bought these early kits.
Maybe use the connecting rods and cylinders from the kit.
I'm intrigued to see what you are going to use this beast for.
Regards, 
Chris.

 

 

You are very right with the suggestion

 

As said the chassis has the wrong wheelbase, so whether the mainframe is misshaped or not may not matter. The crosshead and connecting rods are whitemetal and the slide bars very coarse, may interfere with EM gauge wheels and crankpins. Cylinder casting is a bit of a lump designed for an 00 gauge chassis. The Gibson chassis will require a lot of additional parts. I think the CSP chassis is about £20, just needs EM gauge spacers

[Sandhole]

49 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

You are very right with the suggestion

 

As said the chassis has the wrong wheelbase, so whether the mainframe is misshaped or not may not matter. The crosshead and connecting rods are whitemetal and the slide bars very coarse, may interfere with EM gauge wheels and crankpins. Cylinder casting is a bit of a lump designed for an 00 gauge chassis. The Gibson chassis will require a lot of additional parts. I think the CSP chassis is about £20, just needs EM gauge spacers

Forgot about CSP.
Nice suggestion.

[Jeff Smith]

The wheels on my early K's Dean Goods were very tight and broke when trying to get one off to liberate the top-hat bearings.  I would say difficult if not impossible to re-gauge to EM.

[hayfield]

The CSP chassis, nicely etched in nickelsilver and a hard cast crosshead

 

What I have not assessed is the effect on the cylinders by widening the chassis to EM gauge

[Barclay]

Thanks everyone for the information. There is a temptation here to re-profile the frames and use them. Shifting the wheelbase is no problem because I would compensate anyway, but of course would then have to provide/make brakes, motion etc. I might as well have a look at the wheels - they are no use to me as they are so if I break them nothing lost. It depends on how tight a fit they are!

 

@hayfield, I suppose EM gauge with Romford wheels is the toughest option of all when it comes to fitting outside cylinders. I would shamelessly move them out a bit but not everyone is prepared to accept this.

[Pebbles]

The old Ks wheels will have been in place for a good few years. If you intend to re-gauge you would also look for new 1/8" axles. So as you don't need the old axles drill into the axle  end gradually increasing the size of the hole. This should relieve the pressure enabling the axle to be knocked out. You have little to loose, and it should work.

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Barclay said:

Thanks everyone for the information. There is a temptation here to re-profile the frames and use them. Shifting the wheelbase is no problem because I would compensate anyway, but of course would then have to provide/make brakes, motion etc. I might as well have a look at the wheels - they are no use to me as they are so if I break them nothing lost. It depends on how tight a fit they are!

 

@hayfield, I suppose EM gauge with Romford wheels is the toughest option of all when it comes to fitting outside cylinders. I would shamelessly move them out a bit but not everyone is prepared to accept this.

 

I am not adverse to using Gibsons (I am well in pocket with this model) certainly using Romfords in setting up the chassis. As usual I have not read the instructions yet, but the cylinders are separate from each other, attaching to the side of the mainframes. Moving the frames out to EM standards will move the clingers out, I guess may still be OK for Romfords and hopefully may not look out of place/over gauge

 

[russell price]

22 hours ago, hayfield said:

Barclay

 

The chassis is of the early design, the wheels being quite coarse and due to the axle holes being stamped out, it is quite possible the mainframes are banana shaped

 

I thought I posted this, but looking at this thread I have not 

 

I was going to title this "What I will do with my K's kit"

 

 

I bought an old unmade kit for £40 which hade the old type chassis, pre-quartered wheels and the Mk 1 motor, the chassis was disposed of and fetched £20 ish. I have spare Romford drivers for it, also a 10mm can motor and I invested in a CSP 1361 chassis. The main bonus of the CSP chassis is that it uses a hard cast crosshead and cylinder rod and etched connecting rod, the intension is to build it to EM gauge, certainly a big challenge using the K's chassis, but as Barclay has mentioned the wheelbase is incorrect, no doubt nigh on impossible.

 

The two reservations I have are. Firstly will there be enough clearance using Romford wheels behind the cylinders ? I may have to fall back on buying a set of Gibson's. If my 10mm can motor is not up to it I have a very small Mashima motor. Will finish off with a nice High Level  gear box

I think the chassis is shared with the 44 xx prairie tank. 

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, russell price said:

I think the chassis is shared with the 44 xx prairie tank. 

 

K's were very good at recycling parts for kits, which may go to explain inaccuracies in some kits. Plus its good business using the same masters in two or 3 different kits 

 

On the other hand they could be very quiet about some options, like the early cab version of the 57xx or EM gauge versions

[russell price]

16 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

K's were very good at recycling parts for kits, which may go to explain inaccuracies in some kits. Plus its good business using the same masters in two or 3 different kits 

 

On the other hand they could be very quiet about some options, like the early cab version of the 57xx or EM gauge versions

The early cab 57xx was introduced when the kit was given a major update in the early 80s. I had one as one of the last locos I built before other interests  took over. I built it up with the later cab a set of Romford wheels and a DS11 motor. Recently I dug it out  and rebuilt the body after a full strip down. I used the early cab this time! Then on eBay I bought an incomplete 57xx for less than a tenner. That came with a damaged cab so used my cab to make it up. There was no motor but it had Romford wheels!! I had a root about in the motors box and found an identical DS11 and mount so had another pannier for less than a tenner which is now mechanically the same as the other one. The revised kit is very different to the older model. I still have the wheels and D axles unused. They might find a use. I’ve just rebuilt a 44 xx prarie which I’ve fitted the Hornby can motor out of the 101/ pugs etc. It drives through a Comet 38:12 stage gearbox and runs lovely even down to a crawl. Top speed is not going to worry Mallard either. Guessing thousands of those motors run reliably so thought it’s worth a try! Especially as I have two of them already here. Maybe the D axles  and the other Hornby motor will end up under the 45xx prarie! 

[Sandhole]

1 hour ago, russell price said:

The early cab 57xx was introduced when the kit was given a major update in the early 80s. I had one as one of the last locos I built before other interests  took over. I built it up with the later cab a set of Romford wheels and a DS11 motor. Recently I dug it out  and rebuilt the body after a full strip down. I used the early cab this time! Then on eBay I bought an incomplete 57xx for less than a tenner. That came with a damaged cab so used my cab to make it up. There was no motor but it had Romford wheels!! I had a root about in the motors box and found an identical DS11 and mount so had another pannier for less than a tenner which is now mechanically the same as the other one. The revised kit is very different to the older model. I still have the wheels and D axles unused. They might find a use. I’ve just rebuilt a 44 xx prarie which I’ve fitted the Hornby can motor out of the 101/ pugs etc. It drives through a Comet 38:12 stage gearbox and runs lovely even down to a crawl. Top speed is not going to worry Mallard either. Guessing thousands of those motors run reliably so thought it’s worth a try! Especially as I have two of them already here. Maybe the D axles  and the other Hornby motor will end up under the 45xx prarie! 

The early cab was always available with the 57XX kit.
Problem was, you had to specify it.
To quote Mr Caine..."Not many people knew that!"
It was the same with the side-window cab for the 28XX and Mogul.
Yes, they were in the complete kits in the 80s, development.

[Steamport Southport]

The 57XX with early cab was available well before Mainline brought one out. We had one.

 

Guess what number it had supplied and it's significance.

 

 

5741. Which was the number of Duck. I believe Rev Awdry had replaced his old Gaiety version with the K's version some point in the 1970s. 

 

Also the GWR 14XX was 1436. The same number as Oliver. Coincidence? I don't think so.

 

 

Jason

[Coach bogie]

As Sandhole comments, there were many variations available from K's....they just did not let many people know about it. There was an 'add on' pack for the early 57xx not in the original releases. My dad used to detour, on our trips south, via banbury and there was an aladins cave of castings never listed. There was the Bird side frames for the Bulldog. How many modellers would have ordered those if they had known they existed??????

They would make you up a curved frame Bulldog if you asked. 

 

There were castings for all sorts of figures, wagon W irons, axle boxes....

 

The first time I ever saw the K's articulated motor rail wagons was at Banbury - I never saw one in a model shop.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Steamport Southport]

Our 57XX would have been bought off the shelf in somewhere like Hattons. It wouldn't have been a special order.

 

My Dad wasn't/isn't really a railway modeller, just dabbled in railways.

 

I think my brother might have it. I've certainly bought a couple more since then and got an unstarted 97XX still on the card.

 

 

Jason

[Devo63]

On 30/03/2021 at 00:52, Coach bogie said:

They would make you up a curved frame Bulldog if you asked. 

I have one of these curved frame Bulldogs which I picked up at a show about twenty plus years ago. I had it running as 3317 'Somerset' but it is now awaiting new wheels, gears and motor and possible renaming to 3307 'Exmoor'. The original underpinnings were transferred to my model of 'Tre Pol and Pen' but they now also require renewal. I always thought that the model was a clever conversion combining the Duke frames and footplate with Bulldog boiler and other fittings in a reverse of the Earl conversions carried out by the real railway. It was interesting to find out that the parts could be purchased direct from K's. Closer inspection of my the bodyshell does not show any obvious signs of any previous cut and shut.

I have seven small wheeled 4-4-0 models (4 Bulldogs, 2 Dukes and 3265) but only three working chassis between them. One of the Bulldogs, 3345 'Smeaton', is either a scratch or kit built model dating back to the 1960's (if not earlier) and was fitted with a Romford Terrier motor which has since been replaced. This leaves just two Keyser chassis for the six locomotives. Both of them are the earlier keyhole type fitted with the old Mark 1 motor and preassembled driving wheels. I've had them running for well over thirty years and they have never missed a beat.

On the subject of the Mark 1 motors, can anyone advise of suitable replacement brushes for this type? Some of my older models must be wearing them a bit thin by now.

 

Edit: I just found that I have five Bulldogs! 3373 'Sir William Henry" was hiding in the back of the cupboard. It is working order and has the same type of early chassis.

 

Dave R  

Edited March 31, 2021 by Devo63
Correcting number of locos.

[Devo63]

Just going through the boxes and found another Duke kit partially converted to model the earlier, narrow, cab. This has the later chassis and wheels and the final type of K's motor. The motor is one of the 5 pole types whereas most of the later motors I have are 3 pole. I've never used one of these and might experiment with using the kit parts to see how it runs. I think I better pull my finger out and make an effort to get most of these locos up and running again. I think having nine of these 4-4-0's on the layout would look quite good.

 

Dave R.

 

 

[Coach bogie]

On 31/03/2021 at 14:13, Devo63 said:

 

On the subject of the Mark 1 motors, can anyone advise of suitable replacement brushes for this type? Some of my older models must be wearing them a bit thin by now.

 

 

Graham Farish N gauge motor brushes

 

https://www.petersspares.com/peters-spares-ps4-replacement-graham-farish-carbon-brushes-springs-pk2-of-each-n-gauge.ir

Mike Wiltshire

[tomparryharry]

On 03/12/2020 at 09:14, hayfield said:

I first built this loco well over 45 years ago, then had to rebuild the chassis (and never finished) some years later, built in the days when I knew far less and had nothing but very basic tools and brush painted. Due for a rebuild & repaint.

 

 

Wheels swapped for Romford's, Anchorage D11 and Romford gears. Runs OK but the very bottom of the motor sticks into the can, gears are visible under the boiler

 

 

I guess with a bit of playing around I could get a backhead in

 

 

Painting or changing the wire would help and perhaps using metal black on the gear wheel.

 

The other option is to find another etched chassis which could be used instead, the wheel centres are 29.s x 29.3  16xx ? 

 

Hello John, extremely late to the party, but... The 26xx has 7'6" + 7'6"  wheel centres. In new money, that's 30 + 30 mm . Gibsons do a set for the BoB/West Country, which shares the same dimension.  If you want to have a look at an old Triang B12 chassis, that's the same as well.  When I get the chance, I've got a block of brass on the milling machine just for this, but right now, it's on stop.  (still building the shed ). 

 

Cheers,

Ian. 

[Pebbles]

3 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

 

Hello John, extremely late to the party, but... The 26xx has 7'6" + 7'6"  wheel centres. In new money, that's 30 + 30 mm . Gibsons do a set for the BoB/West Country, which shares the same dimension.  If you want to have a look at an old Triang B12 chassis, that's the same as well.  When I get the chance, I've got a block of brass on the milling machine just for this, but right now, it's on stop.  (still building the shed ). 

 

Cheers,

Ian. 

A West Country with  7'6" + 7'6" coupled wheelbase? Early Triang /Hornby B12s and A3s shared the same chassis block at 29mm + 29mm. 

[tomparryharry]

5 minutes ago, Pebbles said:

A West Country with  7'6" + 7'6" coupled wheelbase? Early Triang /Hornby B12s and A3s shared the same chassis block at 29mm + 29mm. 

 

Just checking.....

 

Yes indeed! I've just put the vernier over the chassis here, and you're quite right; 29.03mm. Thank you for your timely intervention, as you've saved me making a severe c*ck up here!

 

I've got a set of 7'6" coupling rods here (somewhere )  both Gibson & Mitchell.  Gibsons 30mm rods list them as BoB/Merchant Navy,  Once I (finally ) get back to the milling machine, I'll be looking at a batch (10 or so ) of Aberdare 4mm chassis on a CNC. Compensated? Naturally.....

 

Thank you for posting!

 

Cheers,

Ian.

Edited April 2, 2021 by tomparryharry
More info

[Sandhole]

On a different track.
I've sorted out powerdrives for certain K's kits.
Primarily the Black 5 and Jubilee.
A Chinese Hornby Black 5 chassis will, with a bit of filing, fit a K's body.
The new Bachmann Jubilee chassis will do the same for the K's body.
I think Mike/Coachbogie has a similar thing with the Bachmann DukeDog chassis on a Bulldog body.
I realise, in the case of the LMS locos, this may be counterproductive, price-wise.
Mind you, the cost of replacement wheels and powerdrive will be in the region of £100. Then you have to built it.
You can buy a Jubilee for just over £100 from Kernow and less, maybe on EBay.
It has to be the latest Jubilee chassis.
I have done both of these re-motor jobs, they do work.
Just a thought.
Regards,
Chris.

[The Evil Bus Driver]

On 17/03/2021 at 00:21, Steamport Southport said:

 

They normally go for daft money. I keep looking myself, and for the TVR/GWR 0-4-0ST.

 

Keep an eye on Nucast Partners as I reckon they will be one of the ones reissued, possibly with better chassis. They've already done the LNER Y7 and Y8 0-4-0Ts.

 

 

 

Jason

Ah thanks I'll check that out. I'll keep looking in rummage boxes at shows too. I still insist on completely unstarted kits though otherwise it's like eating grub that someone's had a nibble of lol

[Brassey]

GWR Beyer Goods.  Bought as a wreck of parts on ebay.  Many parts missing but I recognised what it was, now merged with Dean Goods and other elements from the spares box.  Scratch built chassis.  K's Broad Gauge Rover tender converted and also on scratch built chassis.  DCC sound with cube speaker in the tender.  Front springs will be sorted once it's painted.  Brake gear still to do: