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Depending which period your modelling (though with a cross-over of just Diamonds and LNWR lettering, then you are circa 1910) the brake vans used in 'maintenance' work may well have had just a half height end at the balcony end, and it is thought the ends were red too, although this photo at Preston in 1896 would appear to contradict this.

 

post-6979-0-14949800-1483388548.jpg

Edited by Penlan
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Own question answered, thanks to LNWR Liveries, Talbot et al. (HMRS, 1985). From 1889: 

 

SD Southern Division (Watford)

RD Rugby Division

CD Central Division (Crewe)

BD Birmingham and Walsall Division

ED Eastern Division (Manchester)

WD Western Division (Liverpool)

ND Northern Division (Lancaster)

NWD North Wales Division (Bangor)

SWD South Wales Division (Abergavenny)

 

PWD was for wagons assigned to Crewe from 1913 onwards for ballasting, new works and major relaying projects.

... and No.10 London Div. based at Camden covered the ex North London lines, the North & South Western Junction Joint lines and the adjoining LNWR goods and coal depots from 1909. 

 

People think the LNWR is easy to model, till you start....

 

Best wishes to you all, and may the future bring you joy and fulfilment..  :derisive: 

 

Edited by Penlan
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Can you tell what it is yet?

 

attachicon.gifPicnic Saloon.jpg

 

It was a Ratio 50' arc roof corridor carriage - perhaps a third to D268? Unfortunately the photo filename gives the game away - the underframe has been shortened to 42', so as the interior looks symmetrical, I think it's most likely going to be a third class picnic saloon to D77. I guess the layout of the windows means you can't make use of the Ratio sides unless you're indulging in some serious cut-and-shuttery... but the inside of the far side has a very Ratio-esque glazing rebate... have you simply scraped all the detail off the sides? How are you going to deal with the roof? The positions of the recesses for the lavatory and corridor lamps aren't aligned on the corridor coaches whereas the two recesses for the lavatory / washroom ends are the same distance from the end.

 

I like the way you're building from the interior out - which comes naturally with the Ratio coaches.

 

Edit to remark that I hadn't actually said that it's a LNWR vehicle...

Edited by Compound2632
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Is the intended vehicle corridor?  

 

It's the problem I have with the concept of cutting down the Ratios.  The cut down vehicle I want would ideally be non-corridor.  

 

Sourcing LNWR non-corridor arc ends is a challenge.  

 

Peter

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The intended vehicle is as Compound guessed a D77 42FT Picnic Saloon. Quite a while back now I bought a PC coach built off someone and also some additional coach sides only, and it included a set of D77 sides. I was then lucky enough to be sent two ratio coach kits which have allowed for this build to happen

 

So far, the underframe has been shortened down to 42ft by trimming off material at both ends, with the sides then also being cut down to 42ft as well, then the detail filed off, and the uprights which form the widows removed as they would have fouled the large windows. The Ends are unchanged as the D77 was a corridor vehicle, so the body was glued together to form the basic frame. This was then attached to the underframe.

 

Next, two more ratio ends were shaped and fitted to form the partitions for the toilets which were at each end of the coach. Doors were cut from plasticard, cemented to the flat side, painted and then the units were cemented in place. The central partition which divides the coach into two was formed from two internal full width sections cemented back to back, and then glued into place. This should have a sliding door to allow passage between the two areas, but the first attempt where I sandwiched a thin sheet of platicard between the two sections, with them cut to show the internal door partially open, left the structure feeling very flimsy, so for strength reasons only in the centre of the coach I reverted to the full pieces

 

8 Number benches were made from plasticard, with the bench seat resting on a full length piece of wood (Candy cane stick rescued from a shop long ago), and the end shaped and super glued to the end. These were then painted before fitting. Two tables have been made by gluing two pieces of wood together, a larger area piece of plasticard over the top, and then 4 legs made from L section to the wood underneath. These were also painted before fitting to the floor.  

 

Bogies are as usual for me Stevenson Coaches whitemetal units to add some weight.

 

Next jobs: Roof to be shortened, some filling to take place, and add vents etc. The underframe will need detailing and once I have made two more tables the sides can be fitted. Ends need the second part of the corridor connection fitting, and when I get some black paint the buffer beams painting as well

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  • 3 weeks later...

PWD was for wagons assigned to Crewe from 1913 onwards for ballasting, new works and major relaying projects.

I'm not sure about 1913, as this is part of a photo, dated 1900 and published in the LNWR Soc's Journal, Vol. 6, No. 8.  In the details I have from Dave Pennington, there is no date assigned to the P.W.D. wagons, though were for 'New Works'.

 

I think we can agree the lettering is part of P.W.D.  Note use of canvas covers to the axleboxes.

The end stanchion is also part of the P.W.D. wagon, ostensibly for keeping rails (track) in place.

I'm not sure if the wagon in full view is a PO or LNWR, but the buffer housing and axleboxes look to be LNWR, even if it has got square ended buffer beams.  

I believe these will be covered in Vol. 3 of LNWR Wagons.

 

(PS - And yes for those in the LNWR Society, which I'm no longer a member of, I have photoshopped the ref. up onto the photo).

 

post-6979-0-55006300-1485203337.jpg

Edited by Penlan
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I'm not sure about 1913, as this is part of a photo, dated 1900 and published in the LNWR Soc's Journal, Vol. 6, No. 8.  In the details I have from Dave Pennington, there is no date assigned to the P.W.D. wagons, though were for 'New Works'.

 

I think we can agree the lettering is part of P.W.D.  Note use of canvas covers to the axleboxes.

The end stanchion is also part of the P.W.D. wagon, ostensibly for keeping rails (track) in place.

I'm not sure if the wagon in full view is a PO or LNWR, but the buffer housing and axleboxes look to be LNWR, even if it has got square ended buffer beams.  

I believe these will be covered in Vol. 3 of LNWR Wagons.

 

(PS - And yes for those in the LNWR Society, which I'm no longer a member of, I have photoshopped the ref. up onto the photo).

 

attachicon.gifLNWR PWD Wagon - 1900 at Crewe.jpg

 

Would the mystery wagon with drop sides and square-ended headstocks be D3 perchance? Fitted with canvas covers for ballasting duties? I agree the axleboxes look to be the standard LNWR grease ones.

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Now that is an exceptionally interesting photograph. I will have to dig the original out of the societies collection.

 

I agree that the axleboxes look to be LNWR in spec, and also the buffer that can be seen also looks very much LNWR in style, however the buffer beam is definitely not LNWR as we know it.

 

Tantalising questions:

Did the LNWR build wagons for private owners? If so to the same design or simplified, i.e. no chamfer on the buffer beam

Did the LNWR Sell older wagons on and its new owner has replaced the buffer beam?

Or, was this standard LNWR design for ballast wagons buffer beams until the adoption of springs, to allow a much bigger surface area for the side to drop against?

 

An aside point, ballast wagons carried axle box canvas covers to prevent ingress of dust etc. Coal and other minerals are also dusty, so why did they not have the same canvas covers?

 

David

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however the buffer beam is definitely not LNWR as we know it.

 

But some LNWR dropside wagons had what I would call 'conventional' square-ended headstocks - D3 and D7 (LNWR Wagons Vol 1 photos p. 67 and p. 75) which is why I suggested D3 for the 'mystery' wagon in question.

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An aside point, ballast wagons carried axle box canvas covers to prevent ingress of dust etc. Coal and other minerals are also dusty, so why did they not have the same canvas covers?

David

I would think the canvas covers were just something else to go wrong. Or something else to pay for.
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But some LNWR dropside wagons had what I would call 'conventional' square-ended headstocks - D3 and D7 (LNWR Wagons Vol 1 photos p. 67 and p. 75) which is why I suggested D3 for the 'mystery' wagon in question.

 

You learn something new every day, will have to have a look in the book

 

It would tie in with my thought that these wagons did not have chamfered ends to allow for a greater surface area for the doors to bang against

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  • 2 weeks later...

Would the mystery wagon with drop sides and square-ended headstocks be D3 perchance? 

Yes, I've checked the drawings etc.,

 

Re. PWD and 1913, the date is quoted in the LNWR Wagons Vol 1. book. It would seem this is in error.

The PWD department in its independent form goes back to around 1859 (as opposed to being part of the original LNWR three division structure) - So recent correspondence advises me.

 

Various changes to the PWD departmental organisation occurred as the LNWR grew, mainly by forming new sub-divisions within the PWD department, up until a single overall PWD organisation, headquartered at Crewe, came into being in 1886.
Edited by Penlan
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D7's, which are slate wagons, have three sets of rivets visible along the top side plank.

 

Yes indeed; as far as I can make out, these secure wooden stops on the insides of the drop sides to hold the 2ft gauge slate trucks in place - these were not slate wagons per se, rather slate truck transporter wagons. (LNWR Wagons Vol 1, pp 74-75.)

 

Please excuse a Midland enthusiast dabbling in LNWR matters...

Edited by Compound2632
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Re. the Brake van I've mentioned in post #101 above..
I received another Dia 16 Bake Van from LRM's today, and it includes a couple of castings for the open end..

They also include a photo of my two open end Brake Vans which are marked up. 'South / Wales / District / Abergavenny'.

I think I might have preferred them to have used the Preston Accident image, but 'hey-hoy'.

 

Those who know my stock, may wonder why I want another Brake Van  :sungum:  

Well one of the (7mm) Brake Vans built by Jim Richards, and now on display at York NRM, has the words as shown below.  

I don't normally just copy other models, but Jim Richards had copious notes for all the stock he modelled, and therefore I'm pretty certain this did exist at 1:1 scale.  It's also shown in the LNWR Society's Booklet 'Forty Years of the ......'  going cheap at Warley NEC in 2016.  So I think I need another Brake Van, lettered as such.

 

Of course it would just be my bad luck to find it was only used on the M.T & A. lines,

...... and didn't work up and around via Craven Arms and on down (or only on) the Central Wales line to Swansea.  

Some LNWR wagons were specifically built and marked for use in the 'Swansea & Carmarthen District', 100 Coal Wagons for Merchandise Dept. Dia. 27 - they only had one end door, no side doors -  (and presumably covered in Vol. 3 of LNWR Wagons). Again, Jim Richards had notes on the lettering. I have two on the layout, somewhere.

 

post-6979-0-07649100-1486095235.jpg

Edited by Penlan
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Found the wagons...  Converted from ratio kit wagons.

The numbers on the solebar number plates are re-configured from the ratio transfers.

I must have done these a long time ago,

because I can't even read them now, let alone 'cut & stick' them.

 

post-6979-0-16676500-1486119983_thumb.jpg

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Compound, please feel free to meddle in LNWR matters, the more the merrier :)

 

Re the D7. I had had a look in the Wagons 1 book about this and you are right that they used baulks of wood bolted to the sides to stop the slate wagons from moving side to side, presumably as they thought that if they were free to roll 8 inches the motion might derail the main wagon. Would is it be a fair assumption that the baulk of wood was used as a sacrificial lamb, being much easier to replace then repair damage to the wagon sides? 

 

Interestingly, a ratio D62 Ballast wagon is slightly wide against the D7 drawings, but is within what I would feel acceptable to possibly produce a model of the D7. Suitable Slate Wagons would have to be identified.....

 

Penlan, what colour are you intending painting the ends of the new brake van? I thought Red was used to identify Ballast brake vans? I think the lettering you require is on the PC sheets available from HMRS.

 

The D27 wagons are very interesting in design. 1 Round end, with an end door, twin brakes operating one side only with the straight brake lever. Do you know the build date of these 100 wagons? I am guessing that the design was based on a D64 round end loco coal with the opening end door modification to end tipping into a ship maybe? You are a better modeller than me, I just attach the nearest number solebar plate off the sheet, and put the number I actually want on the end

 

 

P.S. I still have copies of the "Forty Years of the L&NWR Society including Modelling the LNWR" available at £6 plus P+P at cost for anyone interested.

 

P.P.S. The D62 is currently back in the paint shop......

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Penlan, what colour are you intending painting the ends of the new brake van? 

It will be standard all over Grey - I seem to recall at one time it was called 'Invisible Grey'  :nono:

I think the lettering you require is on the PC sheets available from HMRS.

Not these specific ones, but I have managed to use single or coupled letters from the sheet(s) to get what I want,

though the S&C wagons are obviously hand lettered.

 At one time I use to use the 'Copyright' letters & numbers at the bottom of old Lettraset sheets too.

 

The D27 wagons are very interesting in design. 1 Round end, with an end door, twin brakes operating one side only with the straight brake lever.  Do you know the build date of these 100 wagons? .

 

The Wagon Stock Age Book of 1902* shows they were not built as one lot of 100 wagons, but the first 8 are listed for 1878, then dribs & drabs till 1884, where the total built up to then is 27.  From 1893 a few built each year, though the largest numbers built in any one year was 13 in 1898 and 27 in 1900.

The total of a 100 wagons in 1902 had an average age of 8.32 years.

The Wagon Stock Age Book starts at 1867, the LNWR took over the various companies forming the railway down to Swansea in 1868, so there's not much likelyhood there were any S&C wagons built before 1878.   I seem to recall trawling through the LNWR minutes looking for information on this at Kew, but I must have missed them (there are a lot).

 

* As I've been at this a long time, I have acquired copies of all sorts of information - All of which Peter Ellis and the Society should have.
I was fortunate to have been loaned, by Jack Nelson, an original copy of the Wagon Dia. Book, which I copied,

........ and I have original material too, all of which has been copied to the Society.

I use to spend a fair bit of time at Kew at one stage, and visiting Jim Richards and Geoff Platt who were generous with their information.

Edited by Penlan
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Found the wagons...  Converted from ratio kit wagons.

The numbers on the solebar number plates are re-configured from the ratio transfers.

I must have done these a long time ago,

because I can't even read them now, let alone 'cut & stick' them.

 

Very nice - and quite the most eccentric (as distinct from antiquated) design of brake gear! The tare weight on the end is new to me - was that at the end door only? There must have been some operational reason to do with the configuration of weighbridge and wagon tipper at the docks. 

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