North Welsh Coast Railway - Welsh Dragon Rail

[lezz01]

I'm running out of superlatives Anthony.

Regards lez. 

[Anthony Ashley]

Dear All,

 

I have added some small touches to the mountain. Photos below.

 

Additional vegetation areas, flowers ans tufts of grass have been added around the mountain. More experimentation with length and colour to add more variation will be done. 

 

 

 

 

Sarah has been busy with the paper mache!!

 

 

 

 

Next post for flowers and more detailing!!

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

 

 

 

[Anthony Ashley]

Dear All,

 

Follow up from the post above.

 

Around the side of the mountain on the Penmaemawr side of the layout I have started paper mache on this area of the mountain. 

 

 

 

Wild flowers from North Wales. I subsequently added more grass tufts to lift the large grass patches.

 

 

 

Further post to follow to complete the photo series.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley 

 

 

[Anthony Ashley]

Dear All ,

 

Last in a series of 3 posts.

 

Close ups of our efforts to create new flowers. More experimentation with different colour and lengths to follow.

 

 

 

 

I need to continue the paper mache on the Penmaenmawr side of the layout. I might also do a little more wiring to complete the existing areas to the train controller incorporating all switches and power zones. Tonight I might also have a crack at the resin pours for the Railway viaduct.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

 

 

 

 

[richard i]

Impressive progress. Flowers look very good. I am happy if I have had enough time to make a carriage battery box most days. 
I like what you are doing here.

richard 

[37038]

On each update of progress the scale (and quality) of your project becomes more obvious!

[Howard O]

Anthony

As one who has travelled this headland countless times all my life by bus,car and rail I can think of no higher praise than to say it just takes me right back there. The tones and colours are spot on. You've nailed it !

It's stunning.

 

It makes my day if there's an addition to the blog.

 

Apologies about not being able to follow up about the Grand Hotel and cinema . Even with the pace of your progress I don't think I can justify a trip to the Pemaenmawr historical society as essential under current lockdown..

 

Keep safe 

kindest regards

Howard

 

 

 

 

 

[CameronL]

Hi Anthony

 

I don't know if you've seen this. It's a jigsaw called"Gibsons Gateway to Snowdonia". I first saw it in a toyshop on Conwy High Street. 

 

 

Although the online blurb says it's 1957, which is slightly before your timeframe, I think it really shows what you're creating.

 

Which is totally amazing. I have known and loved that bit of North Wales for the past 40 years (I went to university in Bangor) and to see it being re-created so meticulously is really impressive. The fact that the trains are just one small part of an overall picture with such stunning scenery is a delight too. 

 

Keep it coming 

 

Best wishes.

 

Cam

Edited April 19, 2020 by CameronL
Added date.

[Anthony Ashley]

Richard and 37038,

 

Thanks for the comments they really help to motivate me to continue the process. I really enjoyed Sarah coming out to the shed and helping on the long Easter week end, as it is normally just me and the company was fantastic. We also achieved quite a bit as evidence by the above photos.

 

 

Howard,

I appreciate you coming back to me. I have plenty of tasks to do so a delay in your visit to the Penmaenmawr Historical society will not impact on the layout progress. If you are able to visit after the COVID restrictions have been released that would be fantastic. I do not want anyone taking any unnecessary risks. I am self isolating as much as possible except for emergency trips to Bunnings (big local Hardware chain) for modelling supplies. My adult children have been delegated grocery shopping for the duration of the restrictions. We seem to be doing well in Australia in term s of infection rate and deaths, and I wonder if it is related to the more dispersed cities we enjoy with generally less density in our suburbs. I know the news is not so positive from the UK. 

 

I have attempted to contact by email officials from the Penmaenmawr Historical Society but have had no replies. 

 

One of my last remaining large expenses for the layout now that I have decided to create storage yards with connections at both ends, is the need for another 33 triple 3 way points. Ouch!!! That will be an expensive proposition, particularly as they all need to be computerised and therefore have a decoder added.

 

Cameron,

 

The puzzle is fantastic. I went on line to see if I could buy a copy but no success to date. I thought a copy in the shed would add more atmosphere. Thankyou for your contribution in pointing it out to me as it is a real curiosity and well worth an investment if I can find it. In fact the family has just completed our first family puzzle in about 10 years, as a result of our movement restrictions. The Conwy puzzle would be far superior in every way!! One of the main reasons for choosing the Hoyhead Chester line was the fantastic scenery as you have so correctly pointed out.

 

Disaster with my laptop as it is dead as a Dodo. New one will have to be purchased as I need one in the shed to assist with track wiring and scenery. We have cancelled out trip to the UK this year given the upheaval around the world. We are lucky that our trip to the US and Canada was last year. We will be looking to next year for the UK now.  

 

Jamie,

 

I hope you are OK in these uncertain times. 

 

While I have no further photos to show I have achieved some good outcomes in the last 24 hours. I now have 3 of 8 power zones wired up to final stage from the controller-power booster-switches-plastic terminal strips-track. I have 16 volts in all 3 areas and therefore should be good to run trains once I have the points sorted in terms of frog power.  The paper mache being undertaken by Sarah on the bottom right corner of the layout has been completed and painted brown. I offered for her to paint the underside in white without telling her it is an extremely messy job as the paint is caught by the chicken wire and tends to drip all over you while you are painting. I relented and said I would do it myself!! I have completed about 4 layers of paper mache on the other side of the mountain around the corner of the layout. Only about 5 layers more to go. I might look at commencing the wiring for the Bangor platform area by way of variation. Alternatively I could start on the 3D printed buildings that need to be covered in scale scenes paper. At least I have plenty of variation in the list of tasks for completion. 

 

Stay safe and happy modelling.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley  

 

     

Edited April 19, 2020 by Anthony Ashley

[lezz01]

Anthony. The flora is superb mate I have to keep reminding myself that you're doing this all in 2mm.

Good job mate! What's next? 

Regards Lez.

[CameronL]

Hi Anthony.

 

Glad you liked the picture although every reference I could find to it said it was out of stock.

 

The toyshop in Conwy is called Yesteryears (they specialise in a lot of retro stuff). Their website is http://www.yesteryears co.uk. It might be worth sending an email to them, but the puzzle I saw was made-up and used as a window display for many years. .

 

I've done a bit of detectoring about the engines in that picture. According to the online blurb the Britannia was 70045, later named Lord Rowallan. Here's a picture of her at Bangor in the 50s- https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p24203037/hB7887F25 with a great view of the rather splendid footbridge in the background. Sadly she was withdrawn in 1967 and scrapped in 1968.

 

The Ivatt was 46447, which in reality didn't work out of Llandudno Junction until 1960, so there's a bit of Rule 1 As It Applies To Railway Art unless she was playing away. However, 46447 was preserved and now runs on the East Somerset Railway.

 

What did we do before Google?

 

Best wishes 

 

Cam

[dpgibbons]

Anthony - if you are looking for railway room atmosphere I suggest some reproduction Welsh railway posters such as those here

[Anthony Ashley]

Lez,

 

 

I have completed a few more layers of paper mache on the new section of the mountain and need to do a few more. Now that I have finally done some of the resin pours I can focus on the Pen-y-clip rail viaduct. Once this viaduct is completed I can scenic the rest of the area around the rail viaduct and complete the mountain up to the sea. I will also be able to complete the track work linking Penmaenmawr to Bangor, the last area of scenic loop to be finalised apart from the Bangor platform and goods areas. Once I have a new lap top I can progress with the numerous points frogs that need to be motorised and electrified. There are also 2 areas of the mountain to have scree added. In addition Bangor wiring can now be commenced. I also have about 30 buildings which need to have scale scenes paper, windows and doors added. As I get sick of doing one type of job I shall move onto another aspect of the layout. This should keep me going for some time.

 

Cameron,

 

Your information is really useful. I have been to the listed sites and will see if I can get a hold of the puzzle. Given the year of the layout is 1960 I shall be including the large foot bridge eventually. I have found the internet  to be an invaluable source of material in my research. Thanks for your help.

 

DPGibbons,

 

The art work will add a lot of atmosphere as you suggested. I have some of the posters electronically but the list is much larger than mine to date. Thanks for your contribution.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

 

     

 

Edited April 20, 2020 by Anthony Ashley

[Anthony Ashley]

Dear All,

 

I have not been doing any scenery on the layout apart from adding a little coffee grounds to the mountain and some more scree.  but been mainly focusing on the electronic aspects of it. 

 

Firstly I have redrawn the track plan for the Holyhead storage yard as shown below:

This diagram incorporates all of the track numbering , which are the small blue numbers arrayed across the plan. The black numbers are the train rakes assigned to each track. I have worked out the approx length of each rake to economise on track where possible.  The larger  black boxes are the ESU switch Pilot servo decoders, numbering 20 in total. The smaller black boxes are the servos allocated to each point. I needed to finish this diagram to determine power limitations for the layout , which I shall discuss further below. My knowledge of electronics is nonexistant and  am after some more advice from the very knowedgable readers and contributors.

 

 

I have also reworked all of the points for Conwy I added into the ECoS train controller, renumbering and sorting them in a better fashion.  I have determined all of the points required for the entire layout. Approx numbers are as follows:

 

Holyhead storage yard 80 points  or 20 ESU Switch Pilot Servos (SPS)(a few less as using triples but require 80 servos which is  relevant for power considerations)

Chester storage yard 80 points (a few less as using triples but require 80 servos which is  relevant for power considerations)

Scenic layout about 80 points or 20 SPS.

 

I am now going to give the power requirements for the layout and need advice as to whether I have got this right. 

 

I am in Australia and therefore am using 240V mains power. My power supply to the shed has a light circuit and power circuit of 20 amps for the power switches.

 

Total servos in layout is about 240. I will use separate power supplies for the computer power packs of which I have about 100 spare. 

My research indicates that with no load each servo will draw 100mA at about 5V. If the servo is under load it is about 500mA . The computer power packs are generally about 3.36 Amps at 16V. If I assume I have 6 active servos at any one time for each computer power pack and make up the rest with inactive servos the maths is as follows:

 

6 Active servos -  6X500mA X 5V divided by 16V (the voltage of the power sources) = .9375amps  per power supply

Amps left per power supply is 3.36- .9375 =2.423

Each inactive servo draws - .1A X 5V divided by 16 V= .03125A/power source

with 2.43 Amps left I could have  77 more servos powered by the power supply.  With 10 power supplies ( I could probably get away with 4) I am only using 24 servos per supply and am easily within required power.

 

The power supplies at max are 3.36 Amps at 5 volts. Power usage of 10 of these at max is therefore: 

 

10 X 3.36A X 16V divided by 240V (main power supply) = 2.24 Amps main power supply draw

 

In addition to the power for servos I also have the train controller and 7 boosters for the track.

 

The train controller and boosters have the same power output as follows:

8 X 4A X 16V divided by 240V (main power supply) = 2.14 Amps on the main power supply

 

Total power usage from the mains power supply is therefore 2.24+2.4 =4.48 Amps ?????????

 

Have I worked this out correctly as my experience with electrical calculations is non existent.  Any advice would be really appreciated. I shall also be adding more power components but those above are the most significant. There is no doubt that this hobby provides some excellent mental as well as physical challenges, with so many new areas of expertise needed to be addressed. I hope it will keep me young at heart!!

 

Your assistance and advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

Edited April 30, 2020 by Anthony Ashley

[saxokid]

6 minutes ago, Anthony Ashley said:

Dear All,

 

I have not been doing any scenery on the layout apart from adding a little coffee grounds to the mountain and some more scree.  but been mainly focusing on the electronic aspects of it. 

 

Firstly I have redrawn the track plan for the Holyhead storage yard as shown below:

This diagram incorporates all of the track numbering , which are the small blue numbers arrayed across the plan. The black numbers are the train rakes assigned to each track. I have worked out the approx length of each rake to economise on track where possible.  The larger  black boxes are the ESU switch Pilot servo decoders, numbering 20 in total. The smaller black boxes are the servos allocated to each point. I needed to finish this diagram to determine power limitations for the layout , which I shall discuss further below. My knowledge of electronics is nonexistant and  am after some more advice from the very knowedgable readers and contributors.

 

 

I have also reworked all of the points for Conwy I added into the ECoS train controller, renumbering and sorting them in a better fashion.  I have determined all of the points required for the entire layout. Approx numbers are as follows:

 

Holyhead storage yard 80 points  or 20 ESU Switch Pilot Servos (SPS)(a few less as using triples but require 80 servos which is  relevant for power considerations)

Chester storage yard 80 points (a few less as using triples but require 80 servos which is  relevant for power considerations)

Scenic layout about 80 points or 20 SPS.

 

I am now going to give the power requirements for the layout and need advice as to whether I have got this right. 

 

I am in Australia and therefore am using 240V mains power. My power supply to the shed has a light circuit and power circuit of 20 amps for the power switches.

 

Total servos in layout is about 240. I will use separate power supplies for the computer power packs of which I have about 100 spare. 

My research indicates that with no load each servo will draw 100mA at about 5V. If the servo is under load it is about 500mA . The computer power packs are generally about 3.36 Amps at 16V. If I assume I have 6 active servos at any one time for each computer power pack and make up the rest with inactive servos the maths is as follows:

 

6 Active servos -  6X500mA X 5V divided by 16V (the voltage of the power sources) = .9375amps  per power supply

Amps left per power supply is 3.36- .9375 =2.423

Each inactive servo draws - .1A X 5V divided by 16 V= .03125A/power source

with 2.43 Amps left I could have  77 more servos powered by the power supply.  With 10 power supplies ( I could probably get away with 4) I am only using 24 servos per supply and am easily within required power.

 

The power supplies at max are 3.36 Amps at 5 volts. Power usage of 10 of these at max is therefore: 

 

10 X 3.36A X 16V divided by 240V (main power supply) = 2.24 Amps main power supply draw

 

In addition to the power for servos I also have the train controller and 7 boosters for the track.

 

The train controller and boosters have the same power output as follows:

8 X 4A X 16V divided by 240V (main power supply) = 2.14 Amps on the main power supply

 

Total power usage is therefore 2.24+2.4 =4.48 Amps ?????????

 

Have I worked this out correctly as my experience with electrical calculations is non existent.  Any advice would be really appreciated. I shall also be adding more power components but those above are the most significant. There is no doubt that this hobby provides some excellent mental as well as physical challenges, with so many new areas of expertise needed to be addressed. I hope it will keep me young at heart!!

 

Your assistance and advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

Some good modelling again here Anthony

glad I popped in

[Simond]

Anthony,

 

on my way to work, so brief reply.

 

100mA at idle seems high - I’ve seen reports of 10-15mA.  You can easily measure it.  Connect eg 10 servos in parallel, just the + & - wires, and supply them with 6V in series with a multimeter on the 2A range.  Divide measured current by ten.  Allow 10% excess to be on the safe side.

 

500mA at stall is in the right ball park, but don’t stall servos, they will die in short order if you do. Servos will consume significant current if they are “trying” to get to the demanded position, and are prevented from doing so.  You need to arrange your mechanical linkage so the servo maintains the point position without being loaded.  The over-centre spring will do this for you.

 

Multiply the current you got from the first step above by 240 servos.  That is your base load.  Then consider how many might be operating simultaneously.   Multiply the difference between idle & operating currents by this number - you now have an operating load.  Better add 10% to that too.  Add these together, and divide by the current capacity of your power supply, will give you a basic number of supplies you need.  This is a starting point.

 

Do the supplies output 6V?  If not, you’ll need regulation, which also consumes power.
 

Then consider inefficiency of the power supplies - not sure how much to allow but maybe 20%

 

Then divide that number by the capacity of your power supplies, and that’ll be the quantity you need.

 

But...

 

You will need to common all the ground sides.  And your control system will need a supply too.  I’m not confident about using lots of little supplies - I think I would be happier using fewer, larger supplies, perhaps one for each district. 
 

hth

Simon
 

 

 

 

 

 

[St Enodoc]

On 19/04/2020 at 19:52, CameronL said:

Hi Anthony

 

I don't know if you've seen this. It's a jigsaw called"Gibsons Gateway to Snowdonia". I first saw it in a toyshop on Conwy High Street. 

 

 

Although the online blurb says it's 1957, which is slightly before your timeframe, I think it really shows what you're creating.

 

Which is totally amazing. I have known and loved that bit of North Wales for the past 40 years (I went to university in Bangor) and to see it being re-created so meticulously is really impressive. The fact that the trains are just one small part of an overall picture with such stunning scenery is a delight too. 

 

Keep it coming 

 

Best wishes.

 

Cam

Anthony, this popped up on my good friend Andy Gibbs' topic:

 

Might help you to track it down.

 

[acg5324]

It’s from Monk Bar Models in York, only got it a week ago, there were two in stock on line.  One still left. Yes they are still doing mail order. 

http://www.monkbarmodelshop.co.uk/slotrc-cars-jigsaws/gibsons-jigsaws/19833-g916-gateway-to-snowdonia.html

 

UK Delivery only via the website though.

Edited May 1, 2020 by acg5324

[St Enodoc]

33 minutes ago, acg5324 said:

It’s from Monk Bar Models in York, only got it a week ago, there were two in stock on line.  One still left. Yes they are still doing mail order. 

http://www.monkbarmodelshop.co.uk/slotrc-cars-jigsaws/gibsons-jigsaws/19833-g916-gateway-to-snowdonia.html

 

UK Delivery only via the website though.

Thanks Andy.

 

Anthony, if you are really keen to get one, I'm sure Andy would order for delivery to himself then post it on to me to forward to you...

[acg5324]

12 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Thanks Andy.

 

Anthony, if you are really keen to get one, I'm sure Andy would order for delivery to himself then post it on to me to forward to you...

That would work, an email to the shop to ask if Andy ( the owner not me ) would post direct to Australia, postage would be the deciding factor I expect. We have posted abroad regularly for customers in the shop, including jigsaws.

[acg5324]

Fantastic layout, I’d not come across this thread before.....gone back a few pages to get up to speed.

[Anthony Ashley]

John and Andy,

 

I have emailed the shop to see if they will direct post. I included my train site link for RM Web to see if that helped as it will show I am serious in terms of modelling. If I do not get a positive response I am happy to see if Andy can help. My wife has some relative in southern England which may also be an option. She has gone to bed so will ask her in the morning. I looks like I might be able to get a copy which would look great on the wall of the shed. 

 

I managed to install the decoder and hook it up to the switch tonight. It is about 5 years since I have done one so it was really slow working out the best options. As I have so many lore to go I am sure I shall get quicker!!  

 

Thanks to John and Andy for their active participation. I shall get back to you with the shop response and that of my wife.

 

Simon, 

Thanks for the very fulsome advice. If the standing use for the servos is only 10-15 mA than I have nothing to worry about if I over supply with power packs. I am still a little further confused as I have very little understanding of the electrical side of the hobby. I presume the way I have worked out the final mains power supply is correct if the inputs are correct or conservative.

 

My plan was to use 7 ESU boosters of 4 Amps with the 4 Amp ECoS Train controller for loco power only. Sticking with ESU as the train controller is a safe bet if incorporating their power supplies. I was planning on powering the switches using 6 computer power packs, one for Cony and Penjmaenmawr together, one for Bangor and then two for each storage yard of which there are 2. yards, so 6 power packs in total. I was told the power packs are very stable given there used for computers.

 

The power packs output 3.36 Amps at 16 volts. You mentioned the need for regulation if the voltage is above 6 Volts. Can you please explain what that means. Sorry my ignorance is showing. Similarly how do I common all of the ground sides and what does that mean? 

 

Thanks for the advice.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

Edited May 1, 2020 by Anthony Ashley

[lezz01]

I believe he is saying you will need to reduce the voltage to 6v. There are a few ways to do it and they all use amps. So if you use a voltage regulator, transformer or other means to regulate the volts it will reduce the amperage of the output. It's also not my specialist subject Anthony, but I have enough knowledge to build my own power supplies in the past on analog projects.

I've chosen to keep point and signal control analog and self contained on my layout. I just use dcc for loco control. The control panels are all self contained and each point is connected to the control panel with six pin aviation plugs and sockets.  which gives me 3 for point operation and 3 for mimic reporting. I use 6 core alarm cable and because I'm using momentary contact switches and solenoids with a CDU any current isn't on long enough to cause a problem the only thing on constantly is the led circuit which is a much lower current so I can get away with alarm cable. All the cables are numbered in multiple places and they all go to the same numbered sockets on the sides of the control panel and everything is kept local to the panel and powered by the panel. This negates the use of multi pin plugs on each board and if I need to take a board down all I do is disconnect the appropriate plugs and coil the cable and hang it on hooks for that purpose next to the point motor. The only thing to disconnect then is the track bus which really is just two wires.  I know it sounds complicated but it isn't and I'm over having to solder up multi pin D plugs and sockets and I only need 6 core cables instead of a huge fat multi core cable and a multitude of tag strips. It makes fault finding a doodle and it's cheap.

I love what you're doing and I wish I had a budget to be able to have it all dcc controlled but it's a big layout a la Cyril F with tweeks and I just can't stretch my budget to full bells and whistles. 

However I'm planning a small exhibition layout with only five points and if I can keep up I might make it all dcc with a mimic panel on a laptop.  

Regards Lez.               

[Simond]

Anthony,

 

 I feel comfortable asking questions and raising potential concerns, but would be somewhat less comfortable trying to offer solutions.  That’s potentially less helpful, and more hassle, for you than I would like, but it’s difficult to give you clear and unambiguous advice from here, without “touching the hardware”.

 

It would be ideal if you could find a competent local pal who could help with this aspect of your journey.

 

Lez is correct to say that it uses power to get from 16V to 6V.  The simplest (but probably one of the least efficient) regulators is a 78xx series.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/78xx.  See “disadvantages”.  16V to 6V will chuck out roughly 1.7 times as much power in heat as it does in useful work!

 

Whilst you might have a supply of power packs, I think you need to evaluate whether they are a good solution for your turnout control as well as for your traction power (For which they may be perfect).  It might be more economic, and easier, to get something ideal than to adapt something less so.

Sorry that this is not as comprehensive as I would like - I think there’s quite a lot to be considered and I would hate to steer you down a path that doesn’t work.

 

atb

Simon

 

[St Enodoc]

8 hours ago, Simond said:

It would be ideal if you could find a competent local pal who could help with this aspect of your journey.

Simon's right. A note on BRMA Forum might be an idea.