North Welsh Coast Railway - Welsh Dragon Rail

[Anthony Ashley]

WELSH DRAGON RAILWAY DEVELOPMENTS

 

I managed to achieve laying a few more base boards but spent a long time working out the lower two boards to the west of Conwy where the old moat used to run.

 

I took approx. 4 efforts to draw and finally cut these boards. The main issue was ensuring clearance between the lower level and the declining hidden track which does a 90 degree bend in this area. I have finally worked it out, attached the supporting structures (I had to replace these 3 times) cut and secured the boards. I only have one small and a larger board to fit which need to lift to give access to the hidden track. There is another board to fit which will be secured to the base boards.

 

Photos with explanations are below.

The new moat area which caused a lot of delay in deciding relative locations. The piece of paper in the middle of the photos is an N gauge scale plan of the station. To the left of the station are quite significant elevation changes which assist in hiding the hidden track

 

 

 

Track location and station plan in place. There is a dot at the other end of the layout on the headland running into Conwy. That is a N gauge bus.

 

 

All of the cardboard supports for the hill south of Conwy on the right have been completed. Next stage for the hill will be plaster bandage.

 

 

The plan of the station is legible in this photo. The edge of the paper on the right is the platform edge.

 

 

Looking the other way to the west. The bus is now visible and distinguishable. The plan of Conwy castle is on the board, just over the river next to the track. It is in its approximate position.

 

 

The next two photos are the outline plan of Conwy castle. I have much more detailed floor and elevation plans of the castle. My 11 versions of plasticard will enable me to model the many versions of stone in the area.

 

 

 

The line of boards with the track on it is the main line track area. The board at the end of the track with the station plan has been given the final coat of paint. I have used an exterior acrylic. Are there any comments on this. Acrylic is easier to use but being exterior relatively hard wearing. I have chosen brown to blend in the scenery.

 

 

The bus gives a good perspective of scale. The end of the hill on the left has been completed with card board.

 

 

Close up of the bus.

 

 

Still no comments on the recommended clearance between the bottom of the base boards and turn table. See entry two up for an explanation of the issue. Give you opinion on this as it may assist me.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

[Merfyn Jones]

Anthony

After looking at the photos, you are progressing really well.  Further to our talk of coaching stock, I have had a look at lots of trains on the net over the weekend. I have looked an many shots dated 1960 & 1961 and the noticeable thing is the lack of red/cream coaches, down to very small numbers by then. Maroon repaints was almost complete. Noticed one red/cream coach visible in a few trains.

So for your period, you will need hardly any.  And of course for North Wales there was also a number of coaches from the minor railways, giving you a chance to run a few of the products from Doncaster and Swindon.

From somebody who was there back then.

Merf.

[LNWR lives on]

Artizen,

 

The turn tables will be on casters and can be moved to the outside of the layout or into the operational area giving hopefully good access.

 

The advice I am seeking re clearance is what is a safe clearance between the bottom of the base board and the top of the turntable. I don't want to know the distance sufficient to put a hand in as this will not be sufficient to fix problems on the turntable. Given the "helix" style loops on either side of the table within the hidden area I can go as low as I like by adding additional loops. So my questions still stands what is an optimal height. Is 12 inches considered enough or should I go for 18 inches? Or is less enough?

 

With all the expert modellers reading RM web I am sure there must be plenty of opinions. Please share them.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

 

Anthony,

 

If I read this right then if you have an issue on the turntable (basically a wooden table capable of holding 18(?) trains on it), you are going to have the ability to pull it right out and fix the derailed train or whatever. In that case I would say the gap you need is the height of the tallest bit of rolling stock you own, add 5 mil for track height and a nominal 50mm for clearance should be ample, where the 50mm could be increased to whatever higher figure for where the helix comes in (I have no idea on helix drop heights for N gauge). This option would reduce the helix height down to the bare minimum.

 

I would however consider leaving an 18 inch gap so that you could reach some of the turntable insitu to deal with a minor derailment or issue as far back as you could safely reach without having to drag the whole thing out. That said If i understand right the turntables will be pulled out at least once per running session to swing the trains around from their morning direction to the afternoon timetableing.

 

The above is if I understand what you are doing correctly with the turntables, and if I have understood wrong I have probably just typed a load of rubbish

 

Progress is good, the Bedford OB really gives it some perspective, the trains will be like in real life, lost in a huge landscape

 

David

[Anthony Ashley]

Merf,

 

I agree the number of Red/Cream coaches was certainly on the decline. I have looked at the Llandudno 69 web site and there are pictures of at least some so I can legitimately sprinkle a few through my rakes. I already have 15 or so and will use them throughout the 45 rakes I need to create. I have acquired about 5 Gresley SKs so will use them as well. Your comments are great thanks for contributing.

 

 

David,

 

The turn tables will remain in place as much as possible. I have sufficient clearance under the layout to turn them around as you can see by the radius ring. I shall have to be sparing with legs on the 2 boards above the turntables to allow the required clearance. The whole layout will lock in and be self supporting. I agree with 18 inches as a minimum. You have pretty much understood the means of using the turn tables.

 

I shall try to remember to include the bus in all photos from now on as it provides a sense of scale as you said. I think the first one with the bus was by mistake but I liked it any way.

 

Thank you for your comments they provide good feed back.

 

The next large board has been fitted. Only two to go!

 

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

[LNWR lives on]

Anthony Ashley,

 

In that case I would say minimum 18inches, 24 may be preferable but again depends on the helix drop and the further expense of a longer drop down, and of course coming back up

 

You have said alot about coaching stock, what about freight traffic along the coast? I am not sure when the goods yard at Menai Bridge closed but that was where alof of freight was moved up to along the coast for Caernarvon and Anglesey, as well as there was through freight for Holyhead (when did the container traffic start??)

 

Keep it going, its starting to look like the real thing

 

David

[Anthony Ashley]

David,

 

I have had difficulty with determining exact freight movements on the main line. Stewart Blencowe was recommended as a source of information. He does have some freight time tables which obviously provide timings for freight movement, but this data does not include the types of freight moved.

 

I have a series of articles from a train mag which provides some freight types on the line including cattle, granite, domestic and gas coal, general merchandise, live stock, animal feed, implements, petrol and oil, timber an building materials, fish and mussel traffic, PO wagons, sheet open and ventilated vans, cattle vans, low sided wagons, drums on open wagons, open wagons, slate, railway ballast, road stone, dressed stone, concrete products, explosives, mining stores, steel vans, fertilizers, hay and fodder.

 

If any one has more detail please let me know on the site.

 

Thanks for the interest.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

[Stubby47]

Hi Anthony,

 

Going back to the conversation on coach formations...

 

For simplicity I'm only using 3 coach trains and assuming a view from the south of the line.

 

In reality, a train leaves (left !)  Chester for Holyhead with a loco (L) and three coaches (A, B, C). This train passes through North Wales as LABC and arrives at Holyhead, where the loco is re-positioned at the other end. The resulting train (ABCL) now travels back to Chester.

 

On your layout, as I understand, you will have two identical coach formations, each with a loco at one end. So train #1 (LABC) leaves the first turntable and eventually arrives at the second turntable. Later in the sequence, train #2 (ABCL) leaves TT2 and arrives at TT1.

 

At this point, you will rotate both turntables.

 

Now train #1 is on TT2 but in CBAL order, and train #2 is on TT1 in LCBA order.

 

This means that each of these trains, whilst being in sympathy with each other, are no longer correctly formatted for the line, as the coaches are in the reverse order. (They will also be the other way round to the platforms (compartments or corridor)).

 

I'm not suggesting there is anything wrong with this, but you seem to be keen to get the correct coach sequence for each train.

 

Cheers

 

Stu

[Grafarman]

I agree with Stu on this; I was wondering why you were turning the whole train as the loco would be turned and run round to the Up end of the train at, say Holyhead, Bangor or Llandudno for the main services (or be replaced by another loco) so the coaches effectively ran 'in reverse' back to Chester/Crewe/London/wherever...

[Anthony Ashley]

Stu and Grafarman, 

 

I agree with yout conclusoins in regard to the turntable operation. I decided to put in the turntables proir to determining the composition of the rakes, which were in reverse order for the up and down lines. It appears from my reasearch that most involved the disconnection of the loco from front to back, thereby negating the need to turn the whole rake around. This the case where I have data for the 24 rakes (10 of which were DMUs , but I am likely to use a combination of half DMU half local subrurban coaches with steam locos as I have the suburban stock).  The data collected for the rest of the rakes shows they seem to have travelled only one way and then either travleed else where or were split up with other rakes. I am going to have to run these from their destination through the hidden track if I wish to remain true to the prorotype. It would there seem that the need for turntables may not be that necessary. I shall ponder this further. Either way I shall need cassettes or turntables. If turntables, they are likely to be rarely used as you have identified except as a storage means.

 

If anyone has any detail on the freight carried on the Chester to Holyhead main line I would appreciate your comments.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

[beast66606]

If anyone has any detail on the freight carried on the Chester to Holyhead main line I would appreciate your comments.

 

There was a book published called Holyhead Control* or similar which was written by a group of people some of whom may/may not have worked in control offices (there were quite vitriolic discussions about them on other forums at the time - personally I don't know) - this had various timetable information and may have had freight too. I do have a copy but it's a couple of hundred miles away I'm afraid.

 

I might have some trip notices for 1970, I'll take a look when I can - won't be quick though.

 

I do have the Sectional Appendices which cover all of the years you are modelling, these will tell of any special local instructions for shunting etc. . I also have a fair to good knowledge of the signalling at all the places you are modelling, when you are ready, ask away.

 

 

*Edit - found a reference to it

 

District Controller's View No. 2 - Chester - Holyhead by J P Williams

 

It's from the 1950s (earlier than I remember) so may not be directly useful, but will probably give a good description of the way the traffic was handled.

 

http://www.abebooks.co.uk/9781901056303/Chester-Holyhead-District-Controllers-View-1901056309/plp

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/1901056309/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used

Edited June 14, 2013 by beast66606

[Stubby47]

Anthony,

 

Without inferring you'd need to re-design your entire hidden track sections, I would suggest that using complete loops rather than turntables would give you the ability to run each train around in turn, either always clockwise or always anti-clockwise. A traverser (or 2 or more) would give you additional stock storage without ladders of points.

 

But, it's a major undertaking to redesign your layout and I'm not sure how far physically you've got.

 

Stu

[McRuss]

Hello Anthony,

 

maybe you could only use the drawers for your fiddle yards und put the fiddle yard around 1 feet away from their intended position.

Ther you could place a small turntable where you could turn locomotives.

The sequence would be.

The train arrives at one track on the fiddle yard. The engine is uncouples and the loco propels to the small turntable.

Here the engine is turnes. The traverser is no positioned that the loco  could runround the train on a empty track.

The loco has arrived at the entering track of the fiddle yard. Now position the traverser so that the loco could

enter the track with the train from which the locomotive was uncoupled.

 

Markus

[Anthony Ashley]

This is an interesting issue. As it is my intention to have a permanent vehicle attached to the tender. This will allow me to incorporate DCC sound and a speaker in at least a good proportion of the rakes within the 3rd vehicle. If I do this there is a need to have the first three elements of the train moved to the other end and in most cases the coach or brake at what has become the front of the train to the back. This means all other rake elements will be reversed. I have data on the majority of vehicles immemdiately behind the tender for a lot of rakes which ran on the Chester Holyhead kine in the 60s. In most cases this vehicle is a brake second, a full brake or a fitted van. There are the odd exceptions but generally I will be fairly right with one of these permanently attached. This may result in some slight variation in the return journey to the rake but modellers license will need to be employed to achieve sound.

 

I have no issue in redesigning the hidden area as I have ony constucted up to the top of the grey operational area ie the main part of Conwy with only just incorporating part of the station. See the plan on page 2 of the blog to understand where I am at, the full plan is on that page I think. I shall need to think about the issue. The idea by Markus is certainly an option.

 

I have alreadyt redesigned the hidden area of the layout recently incorporating the loops shown on the existing plan. I have been away interstate for 2 days but am now home and should fininsh the horizontal surfaces this week end. Next is drawing a 100ml grid to facilitate the drawing of the plan on the surface of the layout. The Any Rail computer program allows any size grid to be overlaid on the plan. I find 100 ml the best.

 

I need tp purchase the book by Trefor Thompson which may assist with freight types. I shall also have a look at the other book recommendations above

Thanks for all the comments they are great and assist me hugely!

 

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

[Anthony Ashley]

Dear Stu,

 

In reply to your comment on the smallest house in Britain. I miss out modelling it by a house or two. The layout finishes just before that particular feature of Conwy. In N gauge it would be very small indeed.

 

Dear Beast,

 

Thanks for the help with the freight types. I have just ordered the book by Trefor Thompson on North Welsh Rail so will see what this has to offer. I shall keep your suggestion in mind.

 

I did a fair amount of painting today, completing the priming of all boards on the layout, both on top and underneath. I have completed the top coat for the main line and the far west of the layout. This will enable me to mark the road just outside the medieval wall and to therefore work out how wide the long piece on elevated scenery over the top of the hidden track needs to be. Once I have completed the marking I can cut the last two small boards and on with the rest of the marking for all of Conwy. I have a full day free tomorrow.

 

Keep the comments or suggestions coming if possible. Still interested in possible freight for the mail line. I have seen pictures of them on the line but believe it was in the 70s.

 

Does anyone know if Class 37s ran on the north Welsh Coast mainline in the 60s?

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

[Merfyn Jones]

Does anyone know if Class 37s ran on the north Welsh Coast mainline in the 60s?

Regards,

Anthony Ashley

 

 

I never saw one or heard of one. IF any had appeared it would possibly have been only to Llandudno, but as I say , probably not.

Merf.

[Anthony Ashley]

Merf,

 

Thanks for the reply. It is obviously difficult to find evidence of something which may not have happened. I have trawled through quite a few sites with photos and haven't found a picture of one yet so your confirmation is great.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

[Anthony Ashley]

WELSH DRAGON RAILWAY DEVELOPMENT

 

Horizontal surfaces on the scenic area are complete! A productive day with finishing off the last of the horizontal surfaces on the scenic track and much painting.

 

Photos are below. I hope you enjoy them. The rake is the Irish Mail minus the 2 sleepers which I have not been able to purchase as yet. Eventually I should be good to get them.

 

Royal Scot Heading over Tubular Bridge with the Irish Mail. Castle floor plan on the right

 

 

 

 

Wider angle shot

 

 

Close up of the Royal Scot. You can just see the Medieval town wall in the background

 

 

Nearly all the base boards in view for Conwy. Only the ditch road is missing to the West.

 

 

All of the base boards in view. The pencil line in the foreground is the edge of ditch road.

 

 

View back the other way showing all of the rake (minus the two sleepers).

 

 

Length of the train shot (almost) showing the entrance to the creek line south of Conwy

 

 

Wider angle shot. Floor plan of the castle dominates. I am looking forward to building it

using two of the 11 stone types I have bought!

 

[Anthony Ashley]

TO USE ENAMEL OR ACRYLIC PAINT ON THE TRACK AREA

 

Another query to those following the thread. Do readers believe modern acrylic paint is sufficiently resistant to water and the atmosphere given I live in Brisbane for the track area. Alternatively is the opinion enamel oil based paint should be used on the track area. I am obviously planning on securing the ballast using water, PVA glue and a drop of dish washing liquid. The enamel may provide more protection from the water. There have been occasions in Australia where the cork ballast has become water logged and expanded,  ruining the track laying. 

 

What is the general opinion?

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

[artizen]

I use artist acrylics W&N burnt umber or Vallejo brown leather for the rails. I use real rock for the ballast. So far, three very wet summers later, nothing has moved or failed. Give the artist acrylic a couple of days to dry and you need a coffee stirrer to get it off the rail head! Instead of dish wash liquid have you thought of using isopropyl alcohol? The smell gets to you though. I don't use cork for underlay - I can't trust that sort of material in the weather conditions we get here. How much track noise are you prepared to put up with? I ask that just in case you run sound chips later (or under baseboard speakers for example). The recycled floor vinyl I have under my track combined with the real ballast makes the layout noisy and probably not suitable for sound locos (not that I have ever been tempted). I also lay my ballast last - I just like to be different!

[Stubby47]

Anthony,

 

You might find that with a layout that big, you'll welcome the noise so you can tell where the trains are !!

 

Stu

[Anthony Ashley]

Anthony,

 

You might find that with a layout that big, you'll welcome the noise so you can tell where the trains are !!

 

Stu

Stu I intend to sound chip at least a good number of the locos so hearing them should be no problem. The issue is does the enamel paint protect from moisture better than the acrylic when applied to the cork and ply base. I suppose it must be at least as good or maybe better so that is the option I should use ie enamel.

 

Happy for more comments though.

 

Anthony

 

Anthony

[Stubby47]

I've no idea what your upsidedown weather is like, but would a coat of household emulsion, in a dark colour, painted on the cork be of any use ?

 

Stu

[artizen]

Paint everything. Acrylic is OK. Anything I have stored under the house eventually grows white mould which can be wiped off with a damp cloth. The paint also stops everything warping in high moisture weather if you coat both sides. Your shed should be much more drier than under my house - particularly if you leave the doors closed during wet weather. I can bring samples of mouldy timber around to show you if you like!!!!

[jennarivo]

Just came across this topic and will be following with great interest, what an incredible undertaking this is!!!!!!!

[Anthony Ashley]

Dear Artizan,

 

Thanks for the advice. Painting has been conducted at a furious pace! Everything has been painted including myself on some occasions.

 

Jennarivo,

 

Thanks for the encouraging comments. They help maintain motivation in the face of a daunting task! I did a check list of vehicles I would like and they number 70.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley