North Welsh Coast Railway - Welsh Dragon Rail

[Anthony Ashley]

WIRING GUIDANCE.

 

I am now starting to venture into unchartered territory. Namely laying the track and wiring. I believe I shall be reasonably OK with some local assistance in laying the track. Wiring for DCC is another matter and one which I am seeking readers contribution. 

 

I am definitely doing a DCC layout so that is the first limitation. I intend to make the layout both controllable via a computer or virtually manual, depending on the number of persons involved in the session. I need to do this because of the size. I am unsure how the layout should be computerised.  From my reading I understand that a DCC layout can be divided into power districts with boosters from the main controller laid in series. Power buses from each booster and power source then goes to the track from each booster. Again I am confident with these concepts. I can see possibly 4 power districts. The power districts correspond to the 3 scenic areas on the top level. You may wish to refer to page 2 with the complete plan. The power districts will therefore be divided into Conwy, Penmaenmawr and Bangor. I may then need 1 or 2 for the hidden area. No problem so far. There may however be some difficulty in fault finding in such large areas, and that these power areas should be further divided into manageable sections.

 

I understand that circuit breakers can be installed between the power booster and the track. These can have between 1 to 4 outlets which can then be used to create additional isolated areas, with an additional isolated area for each circuit breaker output. Am I on the right track here. In looking at Conwy I thought I would use 4 circuit breakers. 1 to cover the area on the right of the layout from the scenic break above Bangor to the left side of the tubular bridge across the other side of the river Conwy. The next would cover from that end of the tubular bridge to half way between that point and Conwy station on the left of the  layout. The next covers from half way between the tubular bridge to the scenic divider below Conwy station. The 4th would cover the goods are above the mainline next to the town of Conwy. Do you think this is sufficient circuit breakers to make fault finding manageable. The up and down lines would be on the same circuit breakers for each section.

 

I have not yet decided how to create sections for the circuit breakers for Penmaenmawr or Bangor, but am interested in others views, but I am particularly keen to sort out Conwy. To remind you the full plan is on page 2.

 

Does anyone know if the circuit breaker scan be used for track detection. How do you install more detailed track detection at a reasonable cost.

 

If those following this thread could assist with any comments it would be greatly appreciated. 

 

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

[roundhouse]

Circuit breakers do just that. For detection you will need separate detection circuit boards for instance a Digitrax BDL 168 which does 16 detection section IIRC There are other makes that do the same job but its the one I know and have used.

I also think but not 100% sure that you have to run each board in one power district (ie off one of the circuit breaker sections).

 

Personally I wouldnt have so many circuit breakers but others may know better. I would do one for each station.

 

Ian

[Anthony Ashley]

Roundhouse,

 

Thanks for the reply. I encourage other readers to have a look at thread 126 and provide comment. nthony

[artizen]

There are DCC gurus in the RMCQ at Brendale and also Martyn of the Gold Coast club could probably help you (he is an electrical engineer I believe). There would also be a number of DCC experts at AMRA you could ask? Can you ask on the DCC forum on this site?

[beast66606]

Anthony,

 

A photo of Penmaenmawr that you may not have seen.

 

http://www.20thcenturyimages.co.uk/trolleyed/9/36/2754/index.htm

[Anthony Ashley]

Beast,

 

Thanks very much for the photo. It is first class and not one I have seen before. I shall definitely use it when I move around to the next station.

 

Once again thanks very much. All photos and comments are appreciated, and really make the layout much easier to model.

 

I spent to day drawing on the layout a 100 ml grid to replicate the plan grid. It took 3 hours but will make the layout placement much easier.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

[Anthony Ashley]

WELSH DRAGON RAIL DEVELOPMENTS

 

I have been placing track on the main line and goods areas for Conwy. Not sure what the next stage is but I think I will mark the position of all pieces of tack, label the spot and then cut cork to fit the track plan. Please advise if this is the right process.

 

Once I have cut and stuck the cork I can then paint it to reduce the risk of moisture expansion.

 

Photos are below of a Black 5 and goods train.

 

Main line into the station. Goods area above the main line and goods area below.

 

 

A foreign train from Thomas has invaded the sanctity of the Conwy station area!

 

 

View back to the mainline and goods area from the east

 

 

Goods train with the town in the back ground (please use your imagination)

 

 

Aerial view from the east.

 

 

Thank you for looking. All comments are welcome. Advice in relation to the next step would be appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

[Anthony Ashley]

LAYOUT DEVELOPMENT

 

I have had to wait for further developments pending the checking of my track positioning by a local modelling expert. With my lack of experience I need to ensure the track is properly placed prior to securing it. It will be checked thisThursday.

 

Once checked the plan is to mark the track edges with a permanent marker. Take a trace of the track using tracing paper. Mark the cork sheeting up using the tracing paper trace. Cut the cork to the track layout and stick to the base boards. Is this a reasonable method or is there a shorter equally accurate means.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

[Anthony Ashley]

 

LAYOUT DEVELOPMENTS OR LACK THEREOF

 

I have spent the last 3 days trying to get an idea on the wiring for the layout. This has included the Power district and sub district layout (use boosters for the districts and circuit breakers for the sub districts. Once I have sorted these I need to determine how I am going to manage track detection and point switching, although I am only required to prepare for the Conwy section immediately, I need a plan for the whole layout. I tried to put a question in the DCC question area of RM web but got no response. A little disappointing. I have sent a colour coded track plan to some of the guys in a couple of DCC forums showing my proposed power districts and sub districts. It is a slow process with most of them in the US or UK. I need to ensure my wiring plan is fool proof and without the required knowledge need to rely on the generosity of others for assistance.

 

I certainly have a much better idea than I did 4 days ago, but more to understand. For instance I have yet to understand the purpose of a DPDT switch for a sub district when it runs through a circuit breaker. If anyone knows the answer I am interested.

 

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

[Anthony Ashley]

LAYOUT DEVELOPMENTS

 

I have spent the weekend marking various structures on the boards. These includes some of the roads, Conwy station, the rest of the medieval town, ditch road foot path and grassed area. In addition I have sorted the power districts and sub power districts. I now need to determine what areas I need to divide for track detection, how to facilitate the track detection, how to automate the point control and how to tie all of these issues into a computer. I have found the marking up a lot easier than the electronics, which I have found very difficult.

 

I will need to send many more email before these issues have been finalised.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

[cambriancoaster]

Hello Anthony

 

I have been following progress on your North Wales Coast Railway with great interest and I must say that it really is an impressive design.  What you have achieved so far is inspirational.

 

I have a particular affinity for this area of the UK as I was at Bangor uni. between 1958 and 1961 and travelled daily to college from Llanfairfechan station to Bangor behind steam (and so saw the line at first hand when steam was at its zenith).  

 

A second reason for my interest is that I am modelling part of the other North Wales Coast Railway (i.e. the Cambrian Coast railway) in my layout “ Pwllheli next stop”.  Indeed at one time I did consider modelling Bangor station because, as you say in an earlier post, it is approached by tunnels at both ends of the station…. which makes for interesting operations. However in the end I opted for Pwllheli because it was somewhat simpler to implement as well as being a very attractive station to model and operate in its own right.  Of course trains ran between Bangor and Pwllheli via Afon Wen (where the locomotive reversed round its train to convey it on the last lap to Pwllheli).  

 

Below is photo of Bangor station which  I took in Spring 1964 showing the station, engine shed and the extensive goods yard.   I hope you will find it useful as you come to model the Bangor section of your layout.  No doubt you already have Bill Rear’s book on Bangor which includes  many more photos of the station.   Regrettably I didn’t take any photos of Penmaenmawr or Conway but I have several of Llanfairfechan taken 1958 – 1961  (which I can send if you would like them).

 

 

Like you I have opted for DCC operation and am using the Hornby Railmaster/Elite combination to run trains from my laptop.  This greatly simplifies operations and I am very happy with the results.   I also intend to employ Hornby’s E-link/Railmaster combination in conjunction with an Android tablet when I need a walk-around throttle (as the layout expands). 

 

You might like to view my thread on http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/60560-pwllheli-next-stop/ as it describes how I am wiring up the baseboards for DCC and also includes photos of the wiring of the baseboards.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Best wishes

CC

 

 

[Anthony Ashley]

CC,

 

Your photo is one of the best I have seen of Bangor to date. There are very few which show the right edge of the goods yard which this photos does. I am also interested in the actual traffic sitting in the yard. It shows a range of vehicle types and goods loads, and most importantly shows their position within the yard. Even the goods sitting on the ground on the right of the photo provide insight into the operation of the yard. Being in colour will assist with developing the relevant colour scheme.

 

This photo will obviously be a key component in my modelling the Bangor goods yard. Thank you very much for contributing your own photo to the layout research and design. I am interested in any other photos of the north Welsh coast area.

 

I have not yet sorted out the freight operation in the 60s on the Chester Holyhead line. Do you have any material on this. I have tried a number of books and sourced some material. The thread at entry number no 106 contains detail of a selection of freight transported on the line. Any other info would be welcome.

 

I am still working out the power, track detection, electronics and other technical requirements before laying track. I have 2 houses in Brisbane to visit over the next 2 days to assist with this issue. Many emails and decisions are yet to be made. I have a 5 amp NCE controller and couple of hand sets, but the ret has yet to be decided.

 

I would love to see any photos of your layout.

 

Once again thank you for your assistance it is greatly appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

[roundhouse]

Anthony

 

Regarding the switch for the circuit breakers, I believe it is to hep reset the breaker in the event that it doesn't automatically do so.

 

Some times I have this problem if there are a lot of sound fitted locos in one sub district whereby the breaker still keeps tripping once the short has been removed. As the layout was wired for DC operation, I have left some of the switches in place so it the circuit breaker does not allow the power back on then I just switch the sections off then back on allowing the breaker to reset.

 

On newer layouts I haven't fitted any switches but I can reset it by just pulling the power feed out momentarily although its rare on the N gauge as few have sound.

 

Ian

[cambriancoaster]

Anthony

 

I’m pleased you like the Bangor photo and very much look forward to seeing your 2mm implementation! 

 

I don’t know whether you have already come across the 6G Llandudno Junction Shed web site at http://www.6g.nwrail.org.uk/  which I can thoroughly recommend.  The site is an absolute mine of information on Llandudno junction shed and surrounding areas in the days of steam (and later) and includes dozens – if not hundreds – of photographs of the area taken by various individuals.  

 

I am afraid that I cannot help much on details of freight carried on the line although obviously I saw many freight trains when I lived in Llanfairfechan.   However I do know an engine driver who worked out of 6G in the late 50s early 60s and will ask him if he has any memories of driving them.  Currently I am on holiday (in West Wales) but I will ask when I next see him.  

 

One possibility for you to consider is to try and obtain a copy of the working timetable for the line for the appropriate period from one of the specialist railway booksellers.  This will give details of the times of freight as well as passenger trains.

 

 A few additional photos for you (all taken at Llanfairfechan).

 

There used to be an early morning Holyhead to Euston train passing Llanfairfechan at about 8.30 AM.  The photo below shows this train hauled by Holyhead based Scot 46149.  In the late 1950s it was invariably hauled by a Scot and the staff at Holyhead shed took a pride in turning out an immaculate loco.  Britannias also took turns on the working.  From late 1960 onwards English Electric 1Co-Co1 diesels started to appear on the working

 

 

Until late 1960/early1961 I cannot recollect seeing a Stanier Pacific on the line.  However the powers in charge at Crewe must have decided to start running in ex-works pacifics about that time on the 9.20am Crewe – Holyhead train (if my memory serves me correctly).  They remained at Holyhead until late afternoon and then travelled back hauling a local train – usually departing Bangor at about 5.15 PM.  In view of the earlier correspondence on train formations you might like to see the attached photo of 46227 Duchess of Devonshire hauling a three coach train towards Conway.

 

 

My final picture shows 46245 City of London and was taken from my bedroom window…..oh for a time machine!   

 

 

Best wishes

 

CC

[Anthony Ashley]

CC,

 

Tremendous photos and many thanks again. I have very closely examined the 6G Llandudno Junction Shed web site. In fact I have a record of every loco class and vehicle immediately behind the tender on the Holyhead-Chester line from that site. I will use this information to determine the ratio of locos by class on the line and buy locos accordingly to get the ratios for the layout correct. In addition I need to know the goods or passenger vehicle which was used immediately behind the tender. I have found the great majority of passenger trains had either a brake second or a full brake behind the tender. The purpose of this research was to permanently attach either the brake second or full brake permanently behind the tender and install a speaker and sound decoder in that passenger vehicle. I will do the same for the goods rakes which generally seem to have a fitted van or full brake in most cases.

 

The list below is my summary for Princess Royal from this data base:

 

YEAR NUMBER LOCATION PASS/FR/PAR NAME

37- 46220 Mostyn Pass Coronation (Stream lined)

59 May 546209 Holyhead Pass Princess Beatrice

60- 46211 Llandudno Junc Pass BK2 Queen Maud

60s 46225 Bangor Pass BK2 Duchess of Gloucester

60s 46222 Colwyn Bay Pass Irish Ml Queen Mary

60s? 46224 Bangor Pass BK2 Queen Alexandra

61- 46200 Prestatyn Pass BK2 (8+) Princess Royal

61 Jan 46204 Llandudno Junc Par- Horse & Carriage Princess Louise

62 Jul 46200 Llandudno Junc Princess Royal

63 Apr 46225 Bangor Pass BK2 Duchess of Gloucester

 

Some of the figures I have determined regarding numbers of locos are as follows:

 

Princess Royal - 11

Coronation - 30

Britainnia - 64

Royal Scot - 68

Jubilee- 47

Black 5 - 207

 

The whole data base lists about 40 loco types and includes many 100s of entries. It includes the Flying Scotsman and Blue Peter (LNER IMPORTS) amongst many others, giving me an excuse to run these 2 locos as holiday rakes!

 

If you go to the Llandudno 6G web site I have a thread there as well, although it is not as comprehensive as this thread. It is down the bottom of the thread lists under Anthony Ashley.

 

I have tried to get time table for freight traffic in the 60s but to date had little success. I am still looking of anyone can assist.

 

The photos of the locos and rakes are great and appreciated.

 

If everyone can add comments I would really enjoy reading them.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

[Anthony Ashley]

WELSH DRAGON RAIL DEVELOPMENTS

 

The last couple of weeks have been spent on the computer trying to determine how I will power and control the layout. I have a NCE Power Pro 5 amp radio controlled controller.

 

My aim is to have the layout fully automated using JMRI or a similar computer system, while allowing handset control of locos or points at the desire of the operator. I have discovered this is indeed an optionGiven the size of the layout in N gauge and its relative complexity I was concerned that the computer system would not allow sufficient detail on the track plan to allow reasonable operation. I have determined that any number of computer screens can comprise the track plan for the layout. This clearly solves the scale issue despite the complexity of the track and points in Bangor.

 

I have worked out the power usage for an N gauge layout out as follows.

 

I have conducted further research and believe I can get away with 3 LEDs per coach drawing .01amp per LED for N gauge. A blog indicated that half the power results in a very slight dimunition in light, which will probably give me a more realistic light for the 1960s anyway, so I consider .01 amp per LED to be reasonable if not a slight compromise.

 

The above loco rakes then change to the following calculations:

(full power) Loco with sound and 8 coaches with 3 LED per coach-49 amp (loco o.25+.24 for lights=.49 amp)

(full power) Loco with sound and 10 coaches with 3 LED per coach-49 amp (loco o.25+.3 for lights=.55 amp)

(full power)Loco with sound and 16 coaches with lights with 3 LEDs each- .48 amp (loco o.25+ .48 for lights=.73 amp)

 

Operating goods loco with sound and brake tail and interior light - .27 amp

 

I am after any comments as to whether you think these figures are reasonable, an over estimation or an under estimation.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

[Anthony Ashley]

POWER ISSUES AND CALCULATIONS

 

 

At one stage I thought I was going to have a power usage of 2.25 amps for a 16 coach N gauge rake. This would clearly severely limit the number of rakes on the layout at any one time.

 

If I am able to power the LEDs in series as suggested my power bill for a 16 rake train drops to .25 (loco with sound)+.016 (3 LEDs per coach with 16 coaches) Total for the rake=.41

 

I have determined that on average the rake length is 10 coaches. Power consumption is therefore .25+.01 =.35

 

For the 5 amp booster I can therefore run approx 14 locos per power district. This is probably sufficient power to run one power district on the up an done on the down line. However given the size of the layout and therefore the distance of the wire run, 1 power district per main line would require a length of wire 96 feet. I an using 2.5m2 cross section or 13 gauge wire. I understand the maximum advisable run for 13 gauge wire is about 50 feet, hence the need to divide the main up line into 2 power districts and similarly with the down line.

 

 

Can anyone confirm if these calculations are accurate.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

 

 

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[Anthony Ashley]

POWER CONSUMPTION

 

The above calculations are based on a power usage of .010 amp per LED but 3 in series is still .010amp.

 

All comments are welcome.

 

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

[Anthony Ashley]

LAYOUT DEVELOPMENTS

 

Have spent most of the weekend marking up the town of Conwy, settling and marking the exact location of the track and trying to sort out the power requirements for the layout. A friend and I am going to wire up some LEDs and test a set of 3 in series with power consumption of .01 amp. I need to see if this will be adequate to light one N gauge coach in a realistic manner for the 60s. I hope so.

 

I also need to redraw the power districts and sub districts. I have determined that if I can power up to 14 passenger rakes, all with lights for a power district, I believe I can make the up and down main lines 1 power district each. Again it all depends on the light power consumption given the length of the rakes.

 

The track has been blue tacked down onto the board. I have marked the track edges and will now trace the plan onto tracing paper. This will then be marked onto the cork. I shall be using 3 ml cork for the main line and 1 ml cork for the goods areas.

 

All comments are welcome.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

[Southernboy]

Hello Anthony,

 

I've just come across your thread and am very impressed with not only the size and scope of your layout, but the speed of progress too. I particularly like the fact you plan to model a wide expanse of associated scenery and buildings, definitely a 'trains in the landscape' layout, something I particularly enjoy.

 

I was just looking at the pictures of your layout room with it's three large garage doors - and was thinking how pleasant it must be in good weather to be able to work with those doors thrown wide open.

 

Anyway - I'll look forward to future updates.

[pgilbert]

LAYOUT DEVELOPMENTS

 

Have spent most of the weekend marking up the town of Conwy, settling and marking the exact location of the track and trying to sort out the power requirements for the layout. A friend and I am going to wire up some LEDs and test a set of 3 in series with power consumption of .01 amp. I need to see if this will be adequate to light one N gauge coach in a realistic manner for the 60s. I hope so.

 

I also need to redraw the power districts and sub districts. I have determined that if I can power up to 14 passenger rakes, all with lights for a power district, I believe I can make the up and down main lines 1 power district each. Again it all depends on the light power consumption given the length of the rakes.

 

The track has been blue tacked down onto the board. I have marked the track edges and will now trace the plan onto tracing paper. This will then be marked onto the cork. I shall be using 3 ml cork for the main line and 1 ml cork for the goods areas.

 

All comments are welcome.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

Anthony,

 

Have a look at TRACKRITE underlay, before laying cork. It gives sound insulation and is the correct size for N  gauge track. It also provides the correct spacing for double track simply by laying it side by side.

Not sure if they have a website, but it is widely available in Australia.

Last email address I have for them is mailto: jkhobbies@dragnet.com.au

 

I've used this extensively myself and can recommend it .

 

pgilbert

 

(Sunny Sydney)

[DLT]

Hi Anthony,

 

This is a fabulous undertaking, that for many of us would be a "lifetime project".  Your rate of construction is astounding!

All the best, Dave.

[Anthony Ashley]

Southern Boy,

 

Thanks for your popsitive comments. My aim is to construct a layout which will operate in a strategic sense bwteen 3 stations using computer automation while allowing operators to move particular locos in a tactical sense either with passenger movement or freight shunting and transport. I expect to be able to have up to 15 operators at one time.

 

Thank you for your interest.

 

 

 

 

 

Hello Anthony,

 

I've just come across your thread and am very impressed with not only the size and scope of your layout, but the speed of progress too. I particularly like the fact you plan to model a wide expanse of associated scenery and buildings, definitely a 'trains in the landscape' layout, something I particularly enjoy.

 

I was just looking at the pictures of your layout room with it's three large garage doors - and was thinking how pleasant it must be in good weather to be able to work with those doors thrown wide open.

 

Anyway - I'll look forward to future updates.

[Anthony Ashley]

Peter,

 

Thankyou for your comment in regard to trackrite. I think I prefer cork in terms of irts durability. I have heard reports that foam can deteriorate. I am hgappy to listen to further dbate on the subject.

 

Regards,

 

Anthony Ashley

[pgilbert]

Hi Anthony,

 

You're thinking about the Peco/ Hornby type foam underlay which does deteriorate over time. I've used Trackrite since 2004 and it's still as good as new.

In fact I'm going to lift some and re-use it in the near future.

 

pgilbert

 

(Sunny Sydney)

 

 

Peter,

Thankyou for your comment in regard to trackrite. I think I prefer cork in terms of irts durability. I have heard reports that foam can deteriorate. I am hgappy to listen to further dbate on the subject.

Regards,

Anthony Ashley