LMS coaches on Plymouth trains.

[Mallard60022]

Good morning.

GWR Rob and myself are in 'conversation' at the moment about LMS coaches in trains going to or coming from Plymouth/Cornwall/Kingsbridge (i.e passing through or stopping at Brent) circa 1947 to 1962. 

Can anyone help with the Diagrams used and any other details would be great including links to information sources? My rather weak web searches have led nowhere so far - sorry.

Rob has identified what are probably the Manchester and /or Liverpool trains in his thread in layouts. He has also 'discovered' a Saturdays only Paddington to Kingsbridge that included some LMS coaches.

It would be great to be able to identify which ones are available RTR if any.

We can search the Comet range of course but we are aware  that some other kits may be available (I've got a '5522', I think it is, LMS coach almost built); any help with this greatly appreciated e.g . NE Design's possible range linked with Coachman's range.

Many thanks, Phil.

[chrisf]

This struck a chord and I reached for the excellent colour albums by Peter Gray.

 

In "Stean in Cornwall" there is a shot of a train from Truro to Newquay in July 1961 of which the first vehicle is an ex-LMS Period III non-corridor second.  A few pages further on we find a shot of a Plymouth - Penzance stopper whose first two coaches are of LMS origin.  Later on a Newquay - Trruro branch train has two LMS coaches and one GWR one: the first is a brake vehicle with five compartments, each with a full-size droplight.  A 1959 view of the 9.20 am SO St Ives - Paddington has an LMS brake second as its third vehicle.  Yes, I know these trains were photographed in Cornwall but the coaches must have traveklled through Devon to get there.

 

Over and above these LMS coaches sprinkled among those of the GWR there were through services between Penzance, Plymouth and Manchester.  Many of these were resourced by the London Midland, as were the innumerable summer Saturday extras to the West Country.  Paignton alone would see over 150 coaches from the London Midland on such a day.  Not all of them would have had a booked return working and it is inevitable that some would escape into WR domestic traffic.  A project that I have in hand is banking on just that!  An LMS BSK was in use on the Ashburton branch during November 1957 and on the last day of passenger services between Exeter and Heathfield in June 1958 no less than four LMS coaches were in use.

 

By the same token some WR coaches were to be found a long way from home: the British Transport film "This Is York" shows what I'm certain is a GW coach in the formation of the "North Briton". 

 

Whether the practice of "borrowing" other people's stock was more or less widespread after nationalisation is a Good Question ...

 

Chris

[Tim H]

Remember some discussion on the BRCS Yahoogroup. By the early 60s there was quite a lot of ex-LMS stock allocated to the Western Region, although nobody was sure how many of these were inherited via boundary changes or reallocations to make the best use of servicable stock displayed by new Mk1 deliveries.

[Mallard60022]

Can't believe it's over a year since starting this. 

Having recently identified 1957 summer timetable (especially SO) trains to/from Cornwall from the Midlands and North West (e.g. Sheffield, Crewe (one train with two coaches from Glasgow), Manchester and Liverpool, I am still struggling to identify the coach types (Diagrams would be useful, but not essential). 

My particular requirement is that I would like to 'represent' rather than replicate one (or maybe two) of these workings circa 1960/61, before the MK1 invasion..

Rob's requirement would be, I am sure, more for 1947/8 replication as his trains are proper jobs.

If anyone can come up with any helpful info about this I would be eternally grateful. I can supply a train formation if required and then maybe an LMS modeller could suggest the coaches that might have made up that train. For example, where it says CK I assume it would be a Stanier Diagram CK?

Thanks,

Phil

[gwrrob]

Thanks for bumping this thread.Chris F gave me a list of possibles ,see above,but like your findings they are only by type not diagram.I don't think any rtr would pass muster anyway at the moment.

 

Hornby R4232B would be a good start but don't know the diagram.

[Taz]

Phil, Rob,

 

I too am interested in this (from a 1960s standpoint) for my own layout and have done some investigation using Operation Cornwall. Again it gives formations but not individual diagrams. If memory serves it also details how LM stock was used on local services before being sent back north on the return working.

From photographs I have been able to identify everything from period 1 stock right up to portholes inluding everything inbetween.

I went through an exercise with Brinkly a year or two ago where we managed to identify the actual diagrams of a 3 or 4 coach rake of LM stock that was used for several weeks on the Tavistock line in the mid 50s and so would be suitable for his Horabridge layout.

 

For myself I intend to use a combination of Hornby period 3, Bachmann portholes and brass kits (probably comet). I'm also going to explore the feasibility of adding brass sides to the airfix/Dapol stanier coaches.

[The Stationmaster]

1947, or thereabouts formations are no problem but alas I can't help with vehicle diagrams. 

[Mallard60022]

Phil, Rob,

 

I too am interested in this (from a 1960s standpoint) for my own layout and have done some investigation using Operation Cornwall. Again it gives formations but not individual diagrams. If memory serves it also details how LM stock was used on local services before being sent back north on the return working.

From photographs I have been able to identify everything from period 1 stock right up to portholes inluding everything inbetween.

I went through an exercise with Brinkly a year or two ago where we managed to identify the actual diagrams of a 3 or 4 coach rake of LM stock that was used for several weeks on the Tavistock line in the mid 50s and so would be suitable for his Horabridge layout.

 

For myself I intend to use a combination of Hornby period 3, Bachmann portholes and brass kits (probably comet). I'm also going to explore the feasibility of adding brass sides to the airfix/Dapol stanier coaches.

Exactly my thinking.

Also, thanks chaps.

P

[chrisf]

I think Taz's approach is suitably pragmatic.  Unless someone stumbles across a guard's journal or an account in an old magazine the chances of ascertaining which particular coaches worked a given service on a given date are less than stumbling over a pile of rocking horse droppings on the noon.  At least with a photograph there is some chance of divining a particular diagram.  However, where to find the photographs depends heavily on what, where and when you are seeking to model.  For those who like the 50s and 60s there are albums galore but coverage of the immediate post-war period is scant.  Good hunting ...

 

Chris

[Fat Controller]

The rear part of this Kingswear- Manchester train looks as though it could be LMS stock; however, what I find interesting is that second vehicle:- 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/14455161466/

I don't know a lot about coaches, but that looks like a maroon Centenary-stock coach. It surprised me to see one, and in such good condition too, as late as 1963 

[Mallard60022]

Yes Brian, that's good. Is it a diner do you think? It has an 'inset' door some feet in from the far end door.

I think the third coach is LMS; the others are all MK1 s by the look of the 'lack' of solebar.

I'll post the link elsewhere if I may and ask some questions.

Phil

[Fat Controller]

Yes Brian, that's good. Is it a diner do you think? It has an 'inset' door some feet in from the far end door.

I think the third coach is LMS; the others are all MK1 s by the look of the 'lack' of solebar.

I'll post the link elsewhere if I may and ask some questions.

Phil

Phil,

I don't think it's a catering vehicle, as I can't see any lettering to indicate this; the Centenary stock had these angled ends to allow for the greater width. I wonder if/when the first two vehicles were detached, given that the Centenary stock was heavily route-restricted because of the width?

[chrisf]

I've answered this on the Brent thread.  The rear four vehicles look to be Mk 1s, as is the first.  The second is a Centenary BCK and the third a Hawksworth non-corridor second.

 

Chris

[Mallard60022]

Ah yes, this must be the train that 'joined up' (at Newen Habbot) with the Plymouth stock. Hence the 'rear five' only. I'd have to get off my a*se to look up what train it actually was...sorry.

Blimey Chris, how can you tell what that 3rd coach is so easily? Years of reading and studying I suspect?

 

P

[Taz]

I've spent some time looking through various books trying to identify specific types of LMS coach seen in Devon and Cornwall.

 

As most of my books are about the BR era obviously most of the photos are from that era but it should give a general indication of what could be seen.

 

This list isn't definitive. There were plenty of pictures of other coaches from period 1 to porthole but I couldn't identify specific diagrams.

 

But what I could positively identify was:

 

Period 3 BSK Diag1905

Period 3 BCK Diag 1911

Period 1 BCK Diag 1704

Period 3 SK Diag 1899

Period 3 SK Diag 2119

Period 3 BSK Diag 2123

 

Hopefully might be of use to someone

[Mallard60022]

Good oh Taz. Thanks.

I have made a list of 'probables' as well and sorted the availability of Comet sides or a modern RTR example. I now have the makings of stock for a 'fleet' that will represent one or two workings including the possibility of a twelve wheel Restaurant Car (don't care if they didn't use them.....  but one is listed on a Penzance working; I think they were usually kept at Plymouth and attached there but I'l be double checking that).

The basis for the stock will be a fleet of converted Airfix 57' and 60' lumps, kindly supplied by Ben Alder of this Parish. OK so it will be a right faff and all will need decent LMS bogies (none of the coaches have bogies), but I'm not in a hurry for this 'train'.

Phil

[TheSignalEngineer]

One I posted earlier, but a bit after your period. Manchester train at Plymouth.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/52572-why-is-this-so-rarely-modelled/?p=875366

[James Brodie]

LMS (and others) through coach workings.

My interests model wise are in through train workings ie NE SW but there are CWDs for NW SW  and well you name a through train there are or were working diagrams for them.

The Poole Dorset train from Newcastle or York would be the same coach style but M.W.F either SR  and T.Th.Sat LNE coaches. This kept the costings simple at the clearing house.

York to Northallerton Darlington and North all the four group coaches could have been seen but the Leeds Northern Northallerton to Stockton W H'pool S'land Ncas was restricted to LNE and LMS.

A Newcastle to NW England via Leeds used to have the LNE catering at the rear which came off at Leeds and an LMS/LNW catering was put on at the front.

York to GWR land had a catering twinset as far as Swindon then returned on back working. I don't have the onward CWDs for this turn.

CWDs Carriage Working Diagrams NOT Carriage Diagrams these were two different types of publications.

James Brodie.

[BenL]

 

Hornby R4232B would be a good start but don't know the diagram.

 

I'm attempting to build a GWR layout based on the Cornish mainline c.1946/7 and would like some LMS coaches for services to and from the north west. R4242 certainly looks like a good option but am I right in thinking it's in pre-war livery? But I guess even if it is, it might have held on to this livery through the war and into the early post war period? Any more informed thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated!

 

Ben

[Mallard60022]

Hornby R4232B would be a good start but don't know the diagram.

 

I'm attempting to build a GWR layout based on the Cornish mainline c.1946/7 and would like some LMS coaches for services to and from the north west. R4242 certainly looks like a good option but am I right in thinking it's in pre-war livery? But I guess even if it is, it might have held on to this livery through the war and into the early post war period? Any more informed thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated!

 

Ben

Might be worth contacting GWRRob of A Nod to Brent fame as he has had a look at some of the workings that used LMS coaches in 1947.

Phil.

[gwrrob]

The Wild Swan book 'The Great Western In South Devon' by John Copsey has the workings of these trains but no diagrams I'm afraid but it's a start.

[BenL]

The Wild Swan book 'The Great Western In South Devon' by John Copsey has the workings of these trains but no diagrams I'm afraid but it's a start.

Thanks very much gwrrob, I'll try to get hold of a copy. Can anyone confirm if R4242 and the other Hornby Period 3 LMS coaches are in pre-war or post-war livery?

[BenL]

To my inexpert eye, at least the first 3 coaches in this shot of a GWR local service at Dawlish in 1946 look like LMS examples:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GWR-Real-photograph-5505-up-stopping-train-leaving-Dawlish-1946-/361065560621?pt=UK_Collectables_Railwayana_RL&hash=item54112f3a2d

 

No connection to the seller.

 

Ben

[chrisf]

That's funny, I have inexpert eyes too!  To me the first coach looks very like the period 1 corridor composite made now by Bachmann and once upon a time by Mainline, the second a Stanier period 3 brake and the third of those thirds with big droplights.  The body contours of the other visible coaches have a look of the LMS about them too.

 

That's quite a load for a 4575 class.  It's carrying B headlamps so it's a local train of some description.  

 

I can't help wondering whether Mr Sankey is quite within his rights in claiming copyright for the photograph even though it is his to sell but the law in that area becomes ever more complex!

 

Chris

[Ian Hargrave]

LMS coach livery lasted into the early 1950's in some cases.The stock in the image could be a portion from a North to West express or Leeds,Bradford or Sheffield ,perhaps commandeered for a local working, possibly from the Torbay branch where line occupancy was always tight,especially at busy periods when storage was limited in any case.