Bachmann Stanier mogul

[Black 5 Bear]

Really looking forward to my late crest version courtesy of derails.

[Ian Hargrave]

I Really am looking forward to all those super detailed kit/Scratch built moguls. Which are obviously going to be built due to the dismal model by Bachmann. However I've think I can just about cope with it. So much so I already have a eye on a second.

No worries.It has competition for the "gripe of the week " spot in the shape of the topic just above."Mary Queen Of Scots" has been beheaded several times over it seems.So it's either "Fuzzy Hairdo" or "Wrong Wheel On My Wagon" now running neck and neck.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Ian Hargrave

[Brocp]

I Really am looking forward to all those super detailed kit/Scratch built moguls. Which are obviously going to be built due to the dismal model by Bachmann. However I've think I can just about cope with it. So much so I already have a eye on a second.

Who exactly said it was a "dismal" model? I know for one i certainly haven't read anyone call it that, nor did i for example say it was. If you have not noticed some of its short comings as a model and are happy to overlook them then fine, but just because people here are discussing faults with a model doesn't mean anyone finds it so bad we'd get depressed over it. Or aren't we allowed to discuss issues we personally perceive with models now?

[PenrithBeacon]

Who exactly said it was a "dismal" model? I know for one i certainly haven't read anyone call it that, nor did i for example say it was. If you have not noticed some of its short comings as a model and are happy to overlook them then fine, but just because people here are discussing faults with a model doesn't mean anyone finds it so bad we'd get depressed over it. Or aren't we allowed to discuss issues we personally perceive with models now?

I think 'farren' was being satirical. I have one on order and I am looking forward to receiving it from Hattons. I'm quite sure I couldn't do better with a kit at any price, certainly not at the price Hattons are charging for it.

 

Regards

[farren]

You can discuss all you wish. And so can I and reply if I wish. I never used quotation marks! With the word Dismal. So that would point to me not stating anyone's words. And so must be my interpretation of some of the comments. Already stated

Edited March 9, 2017 by farren

[newbryford]

Would it be all right if two-cylinder locomotives had cranks set at 180° or even 0°? Some axles for kit-built locos have the ends machined to ensure perfect quartering, which is handy but most r-t-r wheels are pressed onto axles with round ends. If I’m wrong on this, by all means put me right but if wheels are just pressed onto axles, is it not just as easy to get it right as to get it wrong?

 

You miss my point.

I'll ask the question again in a different way. Can you see the 120 degrees from one side to the other?

 

 

TBH, it doesn't overly matter if the quartering is out from 90. 60 degrees would work as much as 90. The important fact is that they are all the same and sufficiently away from 0 or 180.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

....I'll ask the question again in a different way. Can you see the 120 degrees from one side to the other?...

 Yes, if you really want to look for it on a slow run past: the balance weight positions for example if viewing side on with your eye at track level.

 

But in truth it is in the 'icing the cake' category for me, along with brake rodding, small painted detail in cabs and underframes and water scoops under solid side framed tenders: stuff you don't typically see at all on an operating loco. Having once fiddled around to make a correctly 'thirded' mechanism in 4mm I rest content that it can be done, but isn't worth the effort in final effect for an operating model. Better spending the time on detail and finish that can be seen, or working on the next model from the near endless list.

 

And regarding the Stanier model that's the subject of this thread, I am in the camp that would fall on this model with delight if it was one my operation needed. Like all RTR, has its compromises: but a good starting point to 'make perfect' to one's own standard, and so much easier than building it yourself.

Edited March 5, 2017 by 34theletterbetweenB&D

[No Decorum]

I'll ask the question again in a different way. Can you see the 120 degrees from one side to the other?

I refer to the answer of my learned friend* above. It is, as he says, “icing on the cake” and I concede not normally visible, like the water scoop on Bachmann’s Tornado (which should not be there) and much cab detail. However, if I know a detail is wrong, I would rather it were right, if that is practicable, on the principle of, “I know it’s there, even if I can’t see it.” If I peer closely at the wheels of a three-cylinder loco, I am conscious that there is no inside con rod but I don’t want to pay an extra £20 or £30 for one.

 

If I delve into the past, I remember thinking that Dapol’s superb J94 did not have very accurate wheels and accepted them as they were. The first things I looked at on Bachmann’s Super D were the wheels and lo and behold, the spokes were flat-faced. Likewise, the fittings on the end of the axles of Bachmann’s 66 do not rotate, although they are a prominent feature of the prototype. Again, a pity, I thought, but probably incapable of achievement; I lived with it. Now, bingo! Dapol promises that they will rotate on the forthcoming 59. I should have though that rotating axle ends would be more difficult to achieve than cranks at 120°.

 

* My apologies, 34C, if I assume too much†.

 

† The friendship bit. The learning is not in doubt.

[JSpencer]

Cost is always going to be the crux of everything. The definition of what is reasonable for a certain sum is open to an endless debate.

 

If the Mogul was still below the £100 mark, its faults would not bat an eyelid. People will either correct it or not and those which do, would be less afraid to correct it on a cheaper model.

 

We see this thread split evenly between 2 camps:

1/ those which consider the faults minor, can live it or correct it themselves

2/ those which find these faults a joke for something that costs £130

 

Prices have headed into an area whereby only those confident to modify models, will. Likewise, greater price does lead to greater expectation but as we have seen on other threads , on other manufacturers, we are seeing features being dropped to save costs (the stepless bunker on the 14XX and the second tender on the Sterling single spring to mind).

 

After design clever, Hornby have steared back to full details, worked well for the Peckett and I suspect the forthcoming original Merchant Navy. Likewise the Ivatt version of the Duchess seems to have exploded the order book. But the real litmus test will be on models like this Mogul, the B12 or a plain Duchess. If these new models don't sell because they priced themselves outside the market, then there will be major rethink by manufacturers for sure.

Edited March 6, 2017 by JSpencer

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... the fittings on the end of the axles of Bachmann’s 66 do not rotate, although they are a prominent feature of the prototype. Again, a pity, I thought, but probably incapable of achievement; I lived with it. Now, bingo! Dapol promises that they will rotate on the forthcoming 59. I should have though that rotating axle ends would be more difficult to achieve than cranks at 120°...

Heljan's standard cosmetic bogie sideframe technique would accomodate this easily, as they slide on horizontally onto pegs in the same alignment as any axle ends; which could then protrude through holes in the sideframe. If Dapol use a similar system then really it is that simple.

 

But it is an inconvenience with Bach's standard one piece clip on cosmetic bogie frames moulding, The main piece would need slots to allow the axle ends in, and then cosmetic overlays applied to supply outside detail covering the access slots, minimum of three pieces instead of one: design, production and assembly cost increment. (The Bach centre motor mechanism template is a stripped down to minimum part count and simple assembly unit, compared to the competitor designs I have looked at.)

 

Do North American HO models typically have exposed and rotating axle ends when appropriate to the prototype? Long time since I went for a look at HO.

 

...After design clever, Hornby have steered back to full details, worked well for the Peckett and I suspect the forthcoming original Merchant Navy. Likewise the Ivatt version of the Duchess seems to have exploded the order book. But the real litmus test will be on models like this Mogul, the B12 or a plain Duchess. If these new models don't sell because they priced themselves outside the market, then there will be major rethink by manufacturers for sure.

 Actually I feel it is a little more nuanced than that. The more recent small black locos from Hornby that I have purchased are not as comprehensively detailed as some of their past efforts. But what has been left off or done more economically has been better selected, so it's not calling attention to itself.

[JSpencer]

 Actually I feel it is a little more nuanced than that. The more recent small black locos from Hornby that I have purchased are not as comprehensively detailed as some of their past efforts. But what has been left off or done more economically has been better selected, so it's not calling attention to itself.

 

I suppose it would depend on what. I agree that things are less detailed than the M7 or a Britannia and features like sliding vents etc have disappeared, however they are still better than the few years before those designs such as their previous Duchess or Original West Country. This being done without causing any noticeable effect. How many of us will miss opening doors and rotating fans?

[bike2steam]

Cost is always going to be the crux of everything. The definition of what is reasonable for a certain sum is open to an endless debate.

 

If the Mogul was still below the £100 mark, its faults would not bat an eyelid. People will either correct it or not and those which do, would be less afraid to correct it on a cheaper model.

Yep, and it amuses me that some are happy with what appears to be a re-hatched pug for £75, yet criticize the Mogul which is more than double the size for less than double the price.

[iak]

[APOLLO]

Yep, and it amuses me that some are happy with what appears to be a re-hatched pug for £75, yet criticize the Mogul which is more than double the size for less than double the price.

 

Re-hatched pug £75 - Bargain !!

 

 

Brit15

[LMS2968]

I'm still running two of these!

 

[Gilloverland]

Just a quick update to my tales of woe with the LMS models, I got a replacement BR early crest model and it runs a dream, no clicking and no wobble, yes there might be small issues around the valve gear but I know that if I attempted to build a kit it would A cost more and B not look as good as the Bachmann model. With that in mind I'm now happy.

[bike2steam]

Re-hatched pug £75 - Bargain !!

 

 

Brit15

Thanks for reminding me I had a senile moment and misspelt 'rehash', my misses keeps accusing me of becoming a grumpy ol' git.

[Bernard Lamb]

A very tasty mogul.

Regarding the lack of a gap behind the steam pipes.

I find that there is a very small window while watching the loco in motion where the angle allows this feature to be observed. Looking at prototype photographs I have seen very few where the gap can be seen.

Not a critical problem for me. Probably the under cab area will get some treatment.

Other than that I am rather pleased with it. Nice to see a UK model with a leaflet of the type I regard as the norm with German models for around the last 30 years.

Bernard

[Downer]

I agree with the notion that Bachmann have skimped a bit here and there on this loco, but it's still a beautiful piece of work.

[JSpencer]

I agree with the notion that Bachmann have skimped a bit here and there on this loco, but it's still a beautiful piece of work.

 

Amazing no one has compared it with the Heljan 1366 - same price for a small tank loco and just as much flak it would seem.

[coachmann]

Amazing no one has compared it with the Heljan 1366 - same price for a small tank loco and just as much flak it would seem.

I too am surprised that many of today RTR locomotives are not good enough for some of today's RMwebs members. It makes yer proud to know there are such darned good builders amongst us, but why isn't this reflected in the 'Workbench' and 'Layout' threads........

Edited March 9, 2017 by coachmann

[iak]

Oh the pain, the joy, the wittering and dribbling.

If ye dinnae like the beastie then dinnae buy it!

Forensic postulations can get so.............

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MikeParkin65]

I too am surprised that many of today RTR locomotives are not good enough for some of today's RMwebs members. It makes yer proud to know there are such darned good builders amongst us, but why isn't this reflected in the 'Workbench' and 'Layout' threads........

I really don't understand why a person isn't allowed to make observations about a mass produced commercial product without a constant drip drip of 'why don't you build one yourself then'. 

[LMS2968]

Possibly because building one yourself would show up the problems in seeking perfection.

 

The reality is that everything could be improved in some way or another, whatever it is and whoever made it. A bit more detail might be added, or a different technique used to give a better representation of certain characteristics, but like everything else, there is a compromise between perfection and cost, and hence price. And this last has already been the cause of comment.

 

I have yet to see the model in the flesh, as it were, but I am impressed by the photos I've. seen. And it's a loco I know well in real life, having begun my acquaintanceship with 2968 some 47 years ago...

[farren]

They can but when part of the reason for not buying a model for having some minor errors when the price is only £135~ dose seem a bit unrealistic. Considering the price rises over the past 20 years. On other things such as houses, bus fare, Doc martins, finger of fudge Etc. And still don't come with finer detail or are DCC ready. Unlike trains which have become much better detailed models DCC ready. and their prices habe gone up much slower.

Edited March 9, 2017 by farren