Developments on the Snowdon Mountain Railway

[Christopher125]

Following on from the building of their new replacement carriages, a 'heritage' vehicle (named 'The Snowdon Lily') has been unveiled for the 35 quid heritage steam experience...

http://instagram.com/p/Z3P0KHDhuB/

http://www.itv.com/news/wales/2013-...ge-makes-debut-on-snowdonia-mountain-railway/

Despite the impression given in a blog post, it actually appears to resemble one of the modern WHR carriages - surely it would've been cheaper to have one of their old carriages, which really were 'heritage', restored?

 

In further news, according to the North Wales Rail site all but one of the steam loco's has been withdrawn, which would fit with the comment on their website that steam would only be used with their new 'heritage' carriage - however Andrew Charman has very helpfully commented elsewhere that that they intend to keep 4 loco's for this operation, the other 3 going to off-site storage, and that they hope a second carriage will be built.

 

Chris

[John_Hughes]

The original plan, of course, was for the line to be electrically powered, which would be nicer than the diesels. They might as well have rack-equipped dmus as the current arrangement! (Actually, there's an interesting thought!)

 

Are they still doing the silly when you arrive at the summit you have to catch the same train back rule?

[Titan]

Unfortunately yes. And they charge the same high price for diesel, you have to book a specific train and you don't know what it is until it pulls in to the platform. When I found out mine was diesel I demanded a refund or a ticket for a steam loco hauled train. They then reluctantly exchanged my ticket after consulting with the operating department to find out which ones were steam.

[gordon s]

Did the trip last week.  Brilliant sunshine at the bottom, but by the time we got to the top, it was visibility of 5 yards, freezing cold and howling winds.  Spent a couple of minutes outside and then returned into the warmth.  Saw the heritage coach and steam loco at the bottom and again half way up, as they took it to the top for a trial run before the official opening on June 1st.

 

Not their fault of course but £110 for a party of four to see nothing and be jammed into a 10 person 'compartment' with no seat cushions at all was quite uncomfortable and a little disappointing.

 

They make it very clear at the bottom that passengers with return tickets take priority and those who walk up and then expect to catch the train back down will either have a long wait on standby or will have to walk back down again.  The cafe at the top was full of walkers who having taken hours to climb to the top, half of which was in cloud with freezing winds, who were then facing another walk back down.  A couple of walkers looked quite unwell and were clearly suffering, but the attitude from staff we spoke to appeared to suggest the train company had no responsibility to take them back down.  I guess in a hard nosed world that may have been correct, but I would prefer to see some help given to those who needed it.  I may be wrong but there appeared to be no medical staff at the summit at all.  Yes, people should be better equipped and heed all the notices etc, but the risk of serious health issues with those who perhaps were not as fit as they may have thought was high. 

 

Same day, but just one hour later at the summit...

 

 

 

 

 

[TomJ]

As far as I see it the Snowdon Mountain Railway isn't really a heritage railway. Its a tourist attraction taking passengers to the top of Snowdon, which happend to be steam operated when it opened. Much like many other lines in the Alps. Some of these lines keep a steam engine for special events, which I suspect is the route the Snowdon railway is taking. On a sunny day they can fill every train several times over irrespective of what traction is on the front. Same with the price.

 

As regards the same train up and down its a safety measure to ensure that everyone they take up can get safely down. There is limited capacity on the trains and are far more people wanting to ride down than up. If people could stay as long as they wanted there would be a big scrum at the end of the day with everyone wanting to get down. Most people on the train would not be equiped to walk down, whatever the weather.

 

As regards the walkers, well to be blunt, they are not the railways problem. I say this as a mountaineer and someone who has lead groups in the hills many times. People who climb any mountain should be equiped to deal with any conditions they encounter and to turn back if they are too severe. Maybe its because its the highest, or maybe its the railway but I see far more poeple inappropiately dressed and struggling on Snowdon than on any other mountain. Perhaps the railway and cafe lull them into a false sense of security but of course in bad weather the railway does not run to the top anyway. On any other mountain bar one in the UK (Cairngorm, and the ski centre/furnicular staff are superb at helping mountain rescue) there is no such option for help. I doubt there are any medical staff at the summit station, any more than there are at any other railway station/cafe/

[jamie92208]

By chance I read Boyd's history of the railway yesterday and the original promotors saw it purely as a tourist attraction and wanted it to be electrically powered but couldn't find a suitable hydro electric source of sufficient capacity and reliability nearby.   There was also a rival scheme for one from Rydd Ddu (Not sure of the spelling) as well.  

 

There were simialr concerens about walkers who wanted a ride down when the line opened so not much ahs changed in the intervening century and a bit.  As to the ill equipped walkers, as a former Mountain rescue member I have very little sympathy with them.

 

 

Jamie

[Oldddudders]

We enthusiasts do see the railway a little differently, of course. It is, was and always will be a means of making money - period. The morality of getting the needy back from the summit in foul weather is not part of the deal and that's that.

 

Snowdon, and for that matter Ben Nevis, suffers from having very easy-to-negotiate paths. I'm sure I saw a mum with a push-chair close to the Scots summit. So a pair of trainers will see you alright on a nice day. The effects of the altitude on the weather are another matter, of course, and the tee-shirt that seemed great at sea-level becomes a route to exposure and pneumonia when the weather turns capricious near the top. Getting that message across takes some doing.

[pete_mcfarlane]

I remember when I was about 10 we went to Wales on  family holiday, and visited Llanberis. My parents looked at how much it cost to get the train up Snowdon, and took us on the Llanberis Lake railway instead. They can't be the only ones to have done this, ad the Lake Railway is rather nice.

 

As for daft people out walking , I once saw a woman in stilletto boots trying to do one of the inclines on the High Peak Trail.

[The Stationmaster]

Many years ago I 'climbed' (i.e. walked up) Snowdon with a party from our school CCF as part of the Easter 'arduous training' exercise - we averaged about 20-25 miles per day mainly cross country and kept going whatever the weather.  On the day we went over Snowdon  - up one side and down the other - it was warm & sunny at the bottom so the ladies in their shorts or stiletto heels and sleeveless dresses all looked quite cosy and wondered why we were carrying ropes and were clearly dressed for rough weather.  At the top of the mountain I was more than glad that I was wearing two anoraks, a shirt and a vest as it was both misty and distinctly chilly.  

 

Simple message - Welsh mountain weather can change quickly and drastically, like most other mountain weather, and you need to be prepared.  If you aren't prepared then it can be others, such as mountain rescue etc, or end up inconvenienced just to help you out of your own lack of preparedness.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

My silly sense of humour kicked in on seeing the thread title, and started composing a piece about the acquisition of several million tonnes of rock to commence an extension with the objective of being the highest mountain railway in the world.

 

How to convince people that even on a hot UK summer day, it can be - or rapidly become - winter just a thousand metres away is a standing problem. I propose tethered balloon ascents as a prerequisite before being released from the school system. Send them up in bathers in June or July, high enough to each acquire a frostbite that should be memorable enough to provide deterence. Perhaps Mr Branson has the equipment to provide this service to the nation on a pro bono basis?

[avonside1563]

Walked up Snowdon last year and the weather was indeed variable all the way up from sun to torrential rain (we were suitably attired and provisioned I might add), was lovely on the way down though and I got to watch plenty of steam hauled (pushed!) trains. On the way back down we passed a family consisting of dad, 2 kids and granny all rather unsuitably dressed (granny was wearing a thin blouse, skirt and slip on shoes, they were already over half way and this was at 3.30 in the afternoon... some people just don't get it!

 

I'm glad I went last year if they are going to one occasional steam special, I presume pressure of economics has something to do with this decision.

 

Here's a video of No.3 Wyddfa approaching the summit.

[Poggy1165]

My lady wife will not go on the SMR as she reckons there's far too high a probability of getting a diesel. It now seems to be a certainty, so no hope of persuading her. SMR's loss will be the FR/WHR/TR's gain.

[Cornish Triang Paul]

I found out a couple of years ago that dogs are not carried. No visit from our family for a few years at least. Well done to all the other lines both standard and narrow who allow them. This and price was offputting then and now there is hardly any steam......... .

[BG John]

 

I found out a couple of years ago that dogs are not carried. No visit from our family for a few years at least. Well done to all the other lines both standard and narrow who allow them. This and price was offputting then and now there is hardly any steam......... .

 

What! At least that means I don't even have to consider saving up for a ride!

[gordon s]

I see no one has agreed with my thoughts.  I said at the outside that I fully accept the railway has no responsibility to get people down, however the two people I saw appeared to be experienced walkers and were certainly dressed correctly for the conditions, but clearly were quite distressed.  Yes, I was surprised there was no medical support available and am trying to think of similar high risk attractions to see if that's the norm.

 

Stop the idiots by all means, but at least try and support those who clearly need help.

 

Sadly with visibility of 5yds we couldn't admire the breathtaking scenery....but the commentary continued highlighting all the things we couldn't see....:-)

[James Harrison]

I hiked up Snowdon about three years ago.  Follow the Llanberis path and you shadow the line all the way.  Saw plenty of steam-powered trains, packed up and down, and even a couple of diesels (curiously, with fewer passengers it seemed).  And the views on the way up were.... breathtaking.  In my honest opinion, they were better for hiking up there than they would have been had I forked out for a train ticket.  For one thing, there's no glass between you and the scenery.  For another, you aren't limited to a view roughly the same size as the window.... 

 

When I went to Llanberis on a family holiday back in 1996 it was £50-some-odd for a family of five to take a ride up there.... my parents decided that the Lake Railway and quarry museum were better value for money for a few hours' entertainment.  I would like to go on the Mountain Railway at some point... but it would have to be on the steam train. 

[The Stationmaster]

I see no one has agreed with my thoughts.  I said at the outside that I fully accept the railway has no responsibility to get people down, however the two people I saw appeared to be experienced walkers and were certainly dressed correctly for the conditions, but clearly were quite distressed.  Yes, I was surprised there was no medical support available and am trying to think of similar high risk attractions to see if that's the norm.

 

Stop the idiots by all means, but at least try and support those who clearly need help.

 

Sadly with visibility of 5yds we couldn't admire the breathtaking scenery....but the commentary continued highlighting all the things we couldn't see....:-)

I presume the company operating the cafe at the top and the railway (I think they are one and the same?) don't regard themselves as having any responsibility for folk who get up there under their own steam (although I wonder what would happen in the case of a real emergency)?  I suspect their attitude might be born out of long experience with those who get to the top and then decide that it it's up to someone else to get them down.

 

That obviously appears to be a rather hard-hearted approach but I wonder what might happen if they didn't behave in that way and finish up finding themselves running extra trains or doing other things from which they get no financial return?  I get the impression from things in this thread that their commercial attitude has changed and they no longer see steam as an attraction but rather as some sort of financial millstone round their necks hence their decision to more or less totally dieselise whereas some of teh Swiss lines have gone in exactly the opposite direction.  Overall it all comes over as 'a business policy decision' and hard luck on anyone else - makes me rather glad that I've 'done' the mountain in the past both on foot and seen some steam haulage on it although not had the pleasure of that traction on our rail trip to the top.

[DavidH]

I'm with Gordon - if someone was really unwell I'd hope that the railway would come to the rescue. There's rather too much of this "I'm alright Jack, to hell with the rest of you" attitude in this world. But for all I know, maybe the summit cafe staff do help out in genuine cases; although I'm sure they might be rather reticent to make this known too publicly. On the other hand, if they are mostly minimum-wage earners, trained only for their current jobs, they may well be forbidden to intervene by their contracts. (Although I'd hope there was someone up there trained in first aid.)

 

In any case, I know full well that it is possible for thoroughly experienced walkers/climbers to be overtaken by events or sudden illness (or find that your coat has a new leak or isn't quite as wind-blocking as it seemed at under 1000ft!). Being in trouble up a mountain does not immediately imply that the person has been careless and shouldn't stop people being sympathetic or lending assistance.

 

And even the people who come out ill-equipped I have sympathy for - if you spend most of your life at or close to sea level I'd argue that you just cannot - completely - understand the effects of high altitude. And there's a well-made, generally broad path to the summit for goodness sake - if anything was an enticement to assume it was an "easy" walk, there it is. 

[Gwiwer]

The SMR are responsible for getting staff and supplies to and from the summit cafe which is one reason that cannot open in winter or occasional severe weather at other times.  A "staff train" runs up first thing in the morning and down afte rthe end of public operations; this train is also used to check the way is clear before the first public train departs Llanberis.

 

I have climbed the mountain several times by most of the available routes (only omitting Crib Goch owing to poor weather on the day I planned to go that way) but have never used the train.  I don't appreciate the SMR policies of insisting you use the first available train up and the immediate return (i.e. no appreciable time at the summit).  I understand thoise are their commercial decisions.  On the most recent visit to the area two diesels and two steam trains were running.  Booking office staff refused to offer any assistance in advising which trips were steam-worked and insisted that if I wanted to ride it was "the next available train or nothing".  The next available train was four hours wait on a quiet day owing to coach party pre-bookings.  They missed out on my fare and probably others as well but gained the security of party bookings.

 

The SMR was never a part of the "Great Little Trains of Wales" branded promotion always preferrintg to go their own way.  Again that was their business decision.  I'm sorry to have never ascended the mountain by train, would prefer that it was by steam if at all but now feel that I shall never darken their booking office doorstep again.

[Neil]

I see no one has agreed with my thoughts.  I said at the outside that I fully accept the railway has no responsibility to get people down, however the two people I saw appeared to be experienced walkers and were certainly dressed correctly for the conditions, but clearly were quite distressed.  Yes, I was surprised there was no medical support available and am trying to think of similar high risk attractions to see if that's the norm.

 

Stop the idiots by all means, but at least try and support those who clearly need help.

 

 

 

I do, and for the idiots too. The experienced and well equipped can get caught out, the novice and naive more so. I'd like to think that humanity, common decency would trump commercial considerations in such a potentially dangerous location.

[Gwiwer]

For walkers and climbers who require urgent help the railway may not be the most appropriate way to assist.  SMR have - and accept - no responsibility for anyone on the mountain other than their staff and passengers.  Mountain Rescue bases exist at Pen-y-Pass and Snowdon Ranger on each side of the mountain as well as at Llanberis.  In cases where a ground-level response is required it is as quick (and can be quicker) to despatch the team via the best route rather than try to secure the use of a train.  A casualty at the summit might be able to find space on a train but many of those requiring medical assistance are not at nor near that point.  Life-threatening emergencies (of which there are mercifully few) can sometimes be attended by trained personnel deployed from a helicopter.

 

It remains the responsibility of the walker to equip themselves suitably, to prepare for changes of weather and circumstances and to understand at the very least how to give (and to recognise and act upon) an emergency call on a mountain.  Six whistle blasts or flashes of a torch at minute intervals, for anyone not familiar.

[Edge]

I must confess that this new policy of limited (and premium) steam has lost the SMR two tickets this summer. I do enjoy my steam engines and whilst it won't stop me going to a railway if none are running, I certainly don't like the idea of paying more for it.

 

All in all, considering that I am restricted to public transport, the SMR is now too much of a bother for people such as I. A great shame, I'm sure it's wonderful, but I'm just not that interested any more.

[Oldddudders]

I'm glad I did the steam trip, back in 1970, with three railway colleagues. It was fair weather, in late September, and the views were as good as they could be. But in 1997 I was certainly grateful for the railway to do the down trip after walking up in rain. Perhaps after Ben Nevis and Scafell Pike on the two previous days (real people do all three in an afternoon and are home for tea, of course!) I was a bit tired.

[Gwiwer]

 

 Ben Nevis and Scafell Pike on the two previous days (real people do all three in an afternoon and are home for tea, of course!)

 

 

"Real people" claim there are three peaks.  We know there were 193

[John_Hughes]

While I can sympathise with the SMR's insistence on people taking the same train back down, I've never seen the same rule on any of the Swiss mountain railways, which presumably are perfectly capable of dealing with the scrum at the end of the day. And the Cairngorm funicular also seems quite capable of letting people have as long as they want up at the top, though of course that's a much shorter operation.

 

Historically the SMR once ran two-coach trains with no particular difficulties, and the new diesels could surely cope with the additional load.

 

As it is, I too am giving them a miss.