Switchers, Boxcars, "downtown"- help- it's got hold of me!

[Colossus]

I don't know if it is still in print - but what might help is "A FIELD GUIDE TO TRAINS" by Gerald Foster ISBN 0-395-70112-0 published by HOUGHTON MIFFLIN. Lots of line drawing showing LOCOS etc, and details of manuf dates , length, horsepower etc

 

Edit - available from amazon.co.uk at GBP9.99

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Peterson-Field-Guide-Trains-Guides/dp/0395701120/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263139954&sr=8-3

 

Thanks for that Shortliner. Am just nicely back online and sifting through more the fabulous cache of links, reference and hints within this thread.

[johnteal]

As someone who models in On30, with a South american bent, this topic caught my eye just because it was different. Having read all of it the one thing that stuck out and always does is how positive and united the replies were... If you had said Im a Us modeler thinking of modeling UK outline the replies would have been a lot more "do it this way its right" if you got any replies.

 

So to summarize what a nice bunch of guys you US outline modelers are !!

 

I could almost be tempted to add a US HO module to my line up (Almost)

 

John

RJR

[Colossus]

As someone who models in On30, with a South american bent, this topic caught my eye just because it was different. Having read all of it the one thing that stuck out and always does is how positive and united the replies were... If you had said Im a Us modeler thinking of modeling UK outline the replies would have been a lot more "do it this way its right" if you got any replies.

 

So to summarize what a nice bunch of guys you US outline modelers are !!

 

I could almost be tempted to add a US HO module to my line up (Almost)

 

John

RJR

 

Hello again lads; first well said John - isn't that just the truth! What a lot of reasoned and highly thoughtful replies as I noted earlier. Everybody not only anticipating

the mysteries that confront someone glancing Stateside for the very first time but also taking into account other replies and modify their advice accordingly. Total respect to

the Dark-sider fraternity.

 

There are so many kind and helpful comments i'll just acknowledge a few here and respond; I've been away to whisper a few quiet words of remeniscence to my beloved Deltics 22, and the returning 16, at the snowy East Lancashire Railway. So I've a few replies to cover. Apologies - i'm not going to fathom the 'multi-quote' facility just now!

 

First, greetings Tony (modelmaker87). Era? Probably late 60s or the 70s. I say this because i assume it's the era whose loco, freight car and road vehicle styling i will like. But it's just an assumption. I like Peterbilt trucks with flatfronted cabs (rather than bonnets) and I sort of associate these with the early 70s. I don't really want to run steam switchers and i tend to feel - though this is based in Britain's railways - that things went 'a bit modern' as the 70s became the 80s. And I grew up on a diet of Kojak, Streets of San Francisco, Serpico and Starsky & Hutch so i'm biased! But in what I've sensed so far from you guys, the interesting, colourful switchers, boxcars, grimy downtown warehouses and even the kind of trucks (lorries) I like , lasted far longer than the characterful equivalents in Britain. I'm one of those old cynics who rather thinks that after 1981 in Britain, "proper railways" ended. Looking at the USA scene, things are much more optimistic and seem very modeller friendly.

Location? Dunno. Any 'beat-up' corner on the fringes of town. I don't have enough local knowledge or any favourite railroad company to colour my decision - quite a nice position be in.

Industries? Again, no preference. I will be more than happy with a scenario where some wonderful boxcars can be switched around. The ability for boxcars of a

particular owner to wash up a log way from home - or not - is something i'd like to know more about- how far can you realistically make them travel? In conclusion, I just 'sense' the late 60s or 70s is the era.

 

AlastairQ: promise i won't try a DDA40X ona shelf switching scene - once i've found out what one is! A Big Boy?

 

Andrew Peters. Hi mate. there's a lot of great help around! Welcome along, glad my post helps.

 

Steve Grantham & FUnit Mad; I'll check out the Lichfield bash. I'm located, sometimes, at Kellington near Knottingley (along the M62 from you Steve) but other times, in Wimbledon.

 

Dave1905. Comments on location noted. If I can make time to see this through, I may well keep it location neutral or I'll end up tied up with local detail and get nothing done.

My main aim will be to build something which, to my eyes at least, has 'atmosphere'. And which allows me some theraputic, slow speed switching fun. I'm one of, I suspect many, who enjoy

dreaming and planning as much as the amy actual modelling. I've been steadily building a London 'Widened Lines' scene (in the style of Minories) for a while and occasionally set up what i grandly

term a 'test track' on a bookcase which is nothing but an excuse to shuffle vehicles about and shunt. Amazing how satisfying it is. The atmosphere part, to me, comes from the right combination

of track layout and type and position of buildings (in relation to track); too many switching scenes for me are about cramming maximum track in to a space. I'd rather sacrifice track footage to allow the non railway bits of a scene to 'live'. I'm less a rivet counter, more an impressionist; in any form of painting or design, the gaps between the lines are as important as the lines themselves. So I love layouts that create little pockets or hotspots of atmosphere by making the viewer's eye search, sometimes between foreground buildings & structures, for a 'glimpse' of the moving train. Urban switching with boxcar unloading bays, street lines, delivery vehicles and all the potential visual foils of over bridges and beaten up buildings, seem to offer this in spades.

 

Shortliner: thanks for the book reference tip;

 

Gil Janus: thanks for the spotter's guide - terrific! It's like being in that Wakefield school playground again back in '72 when some shady cove approached me and hooked me on something

that meant a lifetime's addiction by showing me the Deltic page of an Ian Allen 'Combined Volume!

 

Plenty of food for thought.

 

Richard.

[davknigh]

Richard,

 

A little bit more to nosh on ; http://www.xclent.freeuk.com/p87/fedst1.htm this is P87 the HO equivalent of P4 but could have been done in regular HO as well. The era is a bit before your chosen one but with diesels is good up to the late '60s. Now, if you want a really nice line to model try this one; http://www.thbrailway.ca/ GP7s, GP9s, NW2 & SW9s plus interchange with Canadian Pacific and depending on your time frame, the New York Central, Penn Central or Conrail. :icon_biggrin:

 

HTH

 

David

[BR60103]

Boxcars (and other cars) do wander. We get occasional Mexican autoracks in Canada, although they are rare. If you model one of the big roads, expect about half the cars from the home road and the rest from connections. Some types of cars (container flats and intermodals) are often owned by outfits like TrailerTrain (TTAX) and tank cars are nearly 100% private.

Part of the more easygoing attitude may come from the more generic rolling stock and locomotives we had here. Only a few locos actually scream which road they belong to, allowing a lot more opportunity to freelance. Quite different from repainting a few Jubilees and pretending they're not LMS. And diesels are even more anonymous.

[shortliner]

Just something to have a little snack on, to whet your appetite before taking a big bite!

 

May I recommend a sampling from the menu?

 

For your starter - A very small, almost dioramic, test-track example

 

http://www.the-gauge...php?f=46&t=2322

 

For the main course, some very nice modeling inspired by the link below, grubby urban modelling

 

http://www.the-gauge....php?f=46&t=169

 

For dessert, this is by the master, very grubby urban back-alley modeling at its best

 

http://www.lancemindheim.com/

[Glorious NSE]

And I grew up on a diet of Kojak, Streets of San Francisco, Serpico and Starsky & Hutch so i'm biased!

 

LOL - I wonder how many of us have US TV influences, it sounds like i'm a generation or so later with The Fall Guy, The A Team (I still think they are responsible for the scenery on layouts set in any part of the US or in fact the world looking remarkably like Southern California!) and so on featuring along with re-runs of Dukes of Hazzard...

 

But in what I've sensed so far from you guys, the interesting, colourful switchers, boxcars, grimy downtown warehouses and even the kind of trucks (lorries) I like , lasted far longer than the characterful equivalents in Britain. I'm one of those old cynics who rather thinks that after 1981 in Britain, "proper railways" ended.

 

I'm somebody who really likes the current UK scene, but i'd tend to agree as a generalisation - certainly widespread "wagonload" shunting died out pretty quickly through the 80s in the UK.

 

Arguably similar trends have happenned in the US as well, more unit trains, wagonload traffic shifting to intermodal or truck etc but wagonload traffic can be found to this day.

 

The ability for boxcars of a particular owner to wash up a log way from home - or not - is something i'd like to know more about- how far can you realistically make them travel?

 

Generally speaking if you can find a load for it to justify it getting there it can. Remember that by the 70s there had already been lots of mergers so (for example) a New Haven boxcar from deepest New England is a Conrail boxcar from 1976, so may only have been headed west from Chicago not Boston...

 

And you can backload a boxcar as long as it's headed roughly in the direction of "home" - so if your urban industries were in San Francisco for example you may have an empty New Haven boxcar arrive from your local car storage yard for loading with a load for (say) Kansas City - not home but pointed in the right direction....

 

The 70s also saw something rather fabulous - "IPD" or "incentive per diem" - a response to a national shortage of boxcars owned by the big railroads (and their unwillingness to invest in replacing the 50's/60's built fleet) - basically smaller railroads could buy/lease a fleet of brand new plain boxcars, and send them out into general traffic - the IPD scheme basically paid the owning railroad when they were in use. It created a vast fleet of shiny new boxcars in lots of fascinating (and often very bright) liveries and unlikely sounding shortline names, all of which could then literally turn up anywhere from coast to coast!

 

Railbox was another child of the late 70s creating their own national boxcar pool that still runs today, railbox was part-owned by the big railroads though.

 

There's an interesting write-up of how IPD impacted a small railroad here:

http://www.trainweb.org/mccloudrails/History/History07.html

 

AlastairQ: promise i won't try a DDA40X ona shelf switching scene - once i've found out what one is! A Big Boy?

 

You could argue it's the diesel-electric equivalent? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_DDA40X

 

Steve Grantham & FUnit Mad; I'll check out the Lichfield bash. I'm located, sometimes, at Kellington near Knottingley (along the M62 from you Steve) but other times, in Wimbledon.

 

The MRC might be worth contacting if you're in the London area, there's a few N.A. outline modellers there & they are building a 1950's New York Central layout.

[Colossus]

Just something to have a little snack on, to whet your appetite before taking a big bite!

 

May I recommend a sampling from the menu?

 

For your starter - A very small, almost dioramic, test-track example

 

http://www.the-gauge...php?f=46&t=2322

 

For the main course, some very nice modeling inspired by the link below, grubby urban modelling

 

http://www.the-gauge....php?f=46&t=169

 

For dessert, this is by the master, very grubby urban back-alley modeling at its best

 

http://www.lancemindheim.com/

 

 

Thanks for this excellent bill of fayre Jack. Most toothsome. The Lance Mindheim page for 'dessert' is highly appetising - never knew i had such a sweet tooth...

[Colossus]

I like to add model junction is a good shop to deal with as a custom. For prototype research there is Railpictures which is international but has a lot of American railroads. Model Railroader Hobbyist is a free emagazine which you might like to add to the reading list Model Railroad Hobbyist. And if you cant make your mind up on what railroad you can always model one in Chicago were all the major railroads meet.

And now some pictures that you might be interested in.

these are links since there are on railpictures.net and copyrighted

Picture 1

Picture 2

Picture 3

Picture 4

There are all of the same place a quite model able area of railroad with the lift bridge on the backscence

 

 

Hi there Redkiterail,

 

meant to say thanks for the pic links of downtown Chicago. As regards the sort of grime and grit i crave, they're right out of the middle of the bat - superb.

Nice use of "non-switchers' (or 'Road' engines?) for switching. Lovely reference.

 

Rich.

[Colossus]

Wow, nice links - that's next to the Amtrak loco facility right? Never knew there was a "live" industry left there.

 

They illustrate the point about modern railroads switching with main line loco's well also.

 

Here's a couple from the other side of Chicago of Central Illinios, a shortline that uses end cab switchers:

The fleet: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=307989&nseq=13

In action: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=258248&nseq=10

Nice tight structures: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=292624&nseq=3

 

Plenty of other prototypes worth modelling all over the country though...well worth doing some "absorbing" before tying yourself down.

 

 

Martyn, thanks for your latest replies. I just noticed you're the man (or one of the men) behind the superb RSTower set-up which I enjoyed

at Tolworth recently and which was highly responsible for pushing me 'into the darkness'! Congrats.

 

On the Central Illinois switcher pix that you linked, can I ask, is Central Illinois a later iteration of Illinois Central or are they different companies?

 

Richard.

[Glorious NSE]

LOL definately "one of", it's a bit bigger project than I could even consider doing myself! Thanks Richard, glad you enjoyed it!

 

Central Illinois is a modern shortline, it's working on old "big railroad" industrial trackage in Chicago (can't remember whether those bits are Milwaukee or CNW but one of those) but it isn't a modern incarnation of any old railroad.

 

I think they have some "unlinked" operations outside the city as well?

 

The livery on the black/grey switcher though is a pretty cool copy of the Chicago Burlington & Quincy 1950s paint scheme used on geeps, early SDs and switchers though, it's a nice bit of railroad heritage.

 

The Illinois Central has a bit of a convoluted history, it merged with the Gulf Mobile & Ohio in the early 70s to become Illinois Central Gulf, it then spent the rest of the 70s and early 80s selling off "spare" bits of the railroad. It dropped the "gulf" in the late 80s and bought back some of the lines it sold - in the late 90s it was bought by the Canadian National and is now part of their network - with the Grand Trunk Western and Wisconsin Central part of the CN family as well it provides CN with a route all the way from Canada to the gulf of Mexico with Chicago as a big hub.

 

 

[modelmaker87]

 

 

First, greetings Tony (modelmaker87). Era? Probably late 60s or the 70s. I say this because i assume it's the era whose loco, freight car and road vehicle styling i will like. But it's just an assumption. Richard.

 

Hi Richard, My era is from June 1999 thru to 2004. Although with the new Intermountain GEVO's about to come onto the market and the new Gensets, I like the present weaqually as much. When my layout was first planned, the 1999 thru 2000 year, June to June was superb on the NS and CSX. The boondoggle that transpired after the Cnrail breakup lent itself to seeing all types of power from every RR in the country. Leasers by the dozen mixed in with all this rented power, it was so much colour. So to model that period one could run any road name and number you wished. As time has passed and certain events have unfolded my layout now is a coal line an can be either run as CSX or NS.

 

You can see all my B.S. on a couple of threads in the WFRM club room on here.

 

HTH. Cheers, Tony

[dave1905]

Industries? Again, no preference. I will be more than happy with a scenario where some wonderful boxcars can be switched around. The ability for boxcars of a

particular owner to wash up a log way from home - or not - is something i'd like to know more about- how far can you realistically make them travel? In conclusion, I just 'sense' the late 60s or 70s is the era.

 

Since any railroad can ship to any other railroad, theoretically any railcar from any road can end up anywhere. Practically there are some limitations, since certain traffic isn't handled on certain lines and certain traffic is more likely to end up on certain routes than others, but from a modeler's perspective, anything is possible with regard to a boxcar mix.

 

When I was in Texas I would notice a shipment of plastic pellets to my hometown in Pennsylvania, 1500 miles away every once in a while. Every so often I see a Reading Blue Mountain and Northern hopper of anthracite coal come through Omaha going to Idaho, from a little shortline that operates a part of the railroad I used to model, on a 2500 miles trip.

 

In addition with mergers, run through agreements, leases, etc. you can have a plausible explanation for having a variety of engines roadnames on your layout.

 

AlastairQ: promise i won't try a DDA40X ona shelf switching scene - once i've found out what one is! A Big Boy?

In the late 60's EMD built about 36 "experimental" engines for the Union Pacific that had 2 3300 hp engines on the same frame with 4 axle trucks. They were designe to haul long freights across the west. The UP always liked big engines and experimental stuff, they had some of the first turbocharged engines, gas turbines, coal fired turbines, etc. So they are a HUGE engine that is the least likely for a switch engine.

 

Another place to look for gritty switching areas is the Kansas City "west bottoms".

 

 

[Adrian Wintle]

Scenes similar to Dave's Kansas City pics could just as easily be seen in Toronto or probably any other big city on the continent.

 

Adrian

[Gil Janus]

Here are some more back streets for you to wander

 

Chicago's north side switching - many branches

 

Or how about some very nice Los Angeles plans and photos

 

Gil, known as Bill somedays ... B)

[Colossus]

Since any railroad can ship to any other railroad, theoretically any railcar from any road can end up anywhere. Practically there are some limitations, since certain traffic isn't handled on certain lines and certain traffic is more likely to end up on certain routes than others, but from a modeler's perspective, anything is possible with regard to a boxcar mix.

 

When I was in Texas I would notice a shipment of plastic pellets to my hometown in Pennsylvania, 1500 miles away every once in a while. Every so often I see a Reading Blue Mountain and Northern hopper of anthracite coal come through Omaha going to Idaho, from a little shortline that operates a part of the railroad I used to model, on a 2500 miles trip.

 

In addition with mergers, run through agreements, leases, etc. you can have a plausible explanation for having a variety of engines roadnames on your layout.

 

 

In the late 60's EMD built about 36 "experimental" engines for the Union Pacific that had 2 3300 hp engines on the same frame with 4 axle trucks. They were designe to haul long freights across the west. The UP always liked big engines and experimental stuff, they had some of the first turbocharged engines, gas turbines, coal fired turbines, etc. So they are a HUGE engine that is the least likely for a switch engine.

 

Another place to look for gritty switching areas is the Kansas City "west bottoms".

 

 

 

 

Dave,

These Kansas City 'Bottoms' views are superb. Am I to understand that these wonderful brick warehouses had railroad tracks serving them at some time? Architecturally, they remind me of some of the Victorian textile industry factories on central Manchester (England). Some of my fave buildings around China Lane near Piccadilly station are quite similar though these never had boxcars nudging up to their loading bays!

 

These are inspiring as, instead of just being arranged in a boxy grid, the buildings' orientation is at interesting angles which create a much more pleasing

shape with the modeller in mind.

 

More views of Bottoms always welcome.

[Redkiterail]

Hi there Redkiterail,

 

meant to say thanks for the pic links of downtown Chicago. As regards the sort of grime and grit i crave, they're right out of the middle of the bat - superb.

Nice use of "non-switchers' (or 'Road' engines?) for switching. Lovely reference.

 

Rich.

 

No problems If you get a chance the kalmbach books will be a good start there freight cars books is super as well as there structure modelling. Also have a look at carls micro layout for some interesting layout especially box street.

 

With the 70s time period a lot of mergers were happening as well as the creation of Amtrak. There is on youtube a series of Burlington Northern Railroad Video discussing the railroad at the time of filming in 1973

Hope it helps

From

Samuel Bennett

[Glorious NSE]

More views of Bottoms always welcome.

 

Ooooer missus.

 

Well if you like the look can I reccomend a virtual walkaround and flypast? Cheaper than a transatlantic flight and nobody has to test your pants for explosive substances.

 

Birds eye view from Bing:

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qhhdj073h52y&scene=15145363&lvl=1&sty=b&eo=0

Or a walkabout courtesy Google Streetview:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=kansas+city&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=12.761835,28.168945&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Kansas+City,+Jackson,+Missouri,+United+States&ll=39.103931,-94.598958&spn=0.004088,0.006877&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=39.103342,-94.599498&panoid=IUueMTxH8GrAehVXTdac6A&cbp=12,106.32,,0,5

[Andrew Peters]

Here are some more back streets for you to wander

 

Chicago's north side switching - many branches

 

Or how about some very nice Los Angeles plans and photos

 

Gil, known as Bill somedays ...

 

 

WoW I really like the chicago northside link, Interactive map and all

[highpeak]

The alteration in the per diem rules in the 70s created some interesting situations with modern boxcars. I remember seeing a lot of new boxcars belonging to the Minnesota, Dakota and Western passing through Rigby Yard in Portland, heading for Rumford, ME. On closer inspection they were lettered for return when empty to Rumford, a long way from Minnesota or either of the Dakotas, and certainly not west of there. The paper mill had a contract (possible due to some type of interlocking ownership either with the railroad or one of their major on-line customers) for the cars to make sure they had good, watertight, clean cars for shipping their product.

 

Which does tie in a bit to the notion of return shipments. Maine Central shipped out of Maine a lot of paper in boxcars. One inbound load might be hides to shoe factories, or scrap leather and other unpleasant stuff to Maine Reduction, a rendering plant actually on the Belfast and Moosehead Lake. However, MEC would not be very pleased if one of their cushion-underframed cars came home with a load of hides, since it wouldn't be acceptable to the paper companies after that without a very thorough cleaning! A lot of those cars came back empty to keep a supply of clean lading cars for the mills available.

[PhilM]

Check out this picture to get an idea of the variation in 1980

 

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=304493

 

Maybe only 1/3rd of the cars are in home railroad colours (ICG).

[dave1905]

Check out this picture to get an idea of the variation in 1980

 

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=304493

 

Maybe only 1/3rd of the cars are in home railroad colours (ICG).

 

That variation is common in most of the US in most eras after the 1880's. Obviously there are exceptons, particularly in pre-1980's coal mining regions where home road coal cars ruled. When I get a chance I will post a 1980's-1990's polar opposite to this picture.

[PhilM]

I also think this one is inspirational for the modeller

 

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=299769&nseq=9

[Glorious NSE]

I'd have said the ratio is maybe even less than a quarter...

 

Great photo's though - the first one reminds me I really need to weather the heck out of my GM&O GP35, the ICG didn't appear to believe in cleaning loco's...ever!!

[dave1905]

For those people who really like variety in their rolling stock......

 

 

The SIT (storage in transit) yard at Spring, Texas, about 20 miles N of Houston, about 1000 cars of plastic pellets, a warehouse on wheels.