Bulleid, Maunsell and Hawksworth coaches - did they last until the 1970's

[Ben04uk]

I know that pre-nationalisation wagon stock stayed in service until the early 1970s before there were large number of withdrawals but did coaching stock, such as Bulleid, Hawksworth and Maunsell coaches, last this long as well before they were withdrawn? I presume none ever made it into blue and grey livery?

Edited June 22, 2013 by Ben04uk

[SRman]

None that I now of made it into blue and grey. 

 

I am open to correction but I think the last examples were withdrawn in or around 1968.

[Ian J.]

Quite a few Maunsells carriages survived on in departmental service, IIRC, and of course Maunsell and Bulleid designs for EMUs were around for quite a while I believe. But as for revenue earning loco hauled, not beyond 1968 or 1969 I think. Weren't some Bulleids used in Scotland for a year or two after steam, though not in blue/grey?

 

Edit: to add 'and Bulleid'

Edited June 22, 2013 by Ian J.

[coachmann]

Pre-Nationalization coaches of the more modern type built just before the war were going in large numbers by 1964-5, which suprised me at the time seeing as they were closely following older designs. I travelled in a downgraded Stanier open first and even Bullied coaches (transferred to the LMR) in late 1965 between my home in North Wales and Manchester. The final accountancy clearout came in 1971-2 if memory serves me right. I doubt the majority of Maunsell designs reached much beyond 1964 with just a handful left after that. Most Bullieds had gone by around 1968 although I believe those transferred to Scotland were the very last Bullieds in passenger use when withdrawn circa 1970. The thing that worked against the Southern Region coaching stock was its adherance to rigid sets...........While the later 30-year rule worked for some vehicles, it meant some younger coaches were also withdrawn within the sets. There was no such rule in the early days of Nationalization, hence the proliferation of pre-grouping designs up until the DMU-era in the late 1950s.

Edited June 22, 2013 by coachmann

[Ben04uk]

Thanks for the advice. Are there any good books on the market that people would recommend that cover pre-nationalised coaches?

[Dunsignalling]

Pre-Nationalization coaches of the more modern type built just before the war were going in large numbers by 1964-5, which suprised me at the time seeing as they were closely following older designs. I travelled in a downgraded Stanier open first and even Bullied coaches (transferred to the LMR) in late 1965 between my home in North Wales and Manchester. The final accountancy clearout came in 1971-2 if memory serves me right. I doubt the majority of Maunsell designs reached much beyond 1964 with just a handful left after that. Most Bullieds had gone by around 1968 although I believe those transferred to Scotland were the very last Bullieds in passenger use when withdrawn circa 1970. The thing that worked against the Southern Region coaching stock was its adherance to rigid sets...........While the later 30-year rule worked for some vehicles, it meant some younger coaches were also withdrawn within the sets. There was no such rule in the early days of Nationalization, hence the proliferation of pre-grouping designs up until the DMU-era in the late 1950s. The 30-year rule did not apply to BR Mk.I's either, or so it seemed.

The Southern Region 'Set' system was abolished in 1965, though I doubt any loco-hauled Maunsell stock remained in revenue earning traffic by then. Much of what remained seems to have been withdrawn following the transfer of the West of England main line to Western Region control at the end of 1962.  

 

Following abolition, logic suggest that sets would only be broken up if there was an operational need to do so. Many would have remained intact even if they no longer existed officially and Set numbers are still evident in later photographs/videos. This suggests these markings were ignored rather than painted out. Does anyone know what the official position was?

 

John

[SRman]

I had forgotten the Scottish Bulleids! They were mostly repainted in maroon but at least some ran in green for a while, which looked a little strange in Scotland.

 

There is certainly plenty of photographic evidence to confirm what John said about the set numbers sometimes being left on the ends of the coaches even though the combinations of coaches clearly shows that they were no longer in a set.

[AberdeenBill]

Hi all,

 

In terms of books on Southern coaches/carriages, the standard work is: http://www.amazon.co.uk/An-Illustrated-History-Southern-Coaches/dp/0860935701/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1371895369&sr=8-1-fkmr2&keywords=southern+coaches+in+colour    (unfortunately, it now seems to be out of print and rather expensive...)

 

You also cannot miss: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Southern-Coaches-Colour-Michael-Welch/dp/1906419450/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1371895369&sr=8-1&keywords=southern+coaches+in+colour   (this has a couple of colour views of maroon Bulleids).  

 

So far as is known, no Bulleid coaches made it into blue and grey, but a couple of Maunsell ambulance saloons did and lasted into the 1970s (see King for details), although colour pictures of them seem to be rather elusive.

 

Thanks,

Bill

[asmay2002]

It depends a bit what you include in the term "coaching stock" but there were certainly Bulleid EMUs around until the late 70' early 80's and some NPCS also lasted this long.

[phil-b259]

Upon completion of the Kent coast electrification scheme (1959 - LCDR lines / 1963 SER lines) large quantities of Maunsell and Builled stock became redundant overnight, As this was still in the BR green era none carried blue and grey. A similar situation occurred 5 years later when the Bournemouth scheme went live because although blue and grey was being introduced, the remaining loco hauled Maunsell / Builled stock was all scheduled for scrapping upon completion of the scheme. Meanwhile the introduction of DEMUs and later Beaching mandated branch line cuts for those lines not being 'juiced' quickly removed the rest.

Edited June 22, 2013 by phil-b259

[Ceptic]

Not exactly passenger stock, but, seven Maunsell TPO vehicles, four Sorting Vans (POS), Nos. 4919 - 4922 and three Stowage Vans (POT) Nos. 4958 - 4960 were re-painted to Blue / Grey. All, except 4919, lasted until 1974.

 

P.S. Edit :- These were the only ex - SR loco-hauled stock to carry B/G. 

Edited June 22, 2013 by Ceptic

[coachmann]

Hi all,

 

In terms of books on Southern coaches/carriages, the standard work is: http://www.amazon.co.uk/An-Illustrated-History-Southern-Coaches/dp/0860935701/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1371895369&sr=8-1-fkmr2&keywords=southern+coaches+in+colour    (unfortunately, it now seems to be out of print and rather expensive...)

 

You also cannot miss: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Southern-Coaches-Colour-Michael-Welch/dp/1906419450/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1371895369&sr=8-1&keywords=southern+coaches+in+colour   (this has a couple of colour views of maroon Bulleids).  

 

So far as is known, no Bulleid coaches made it into blue and grey, but a couple of Maunsell ambulance saloons did and lasted into the 1970s (see King for details), although colour pictures of them seem to be rather elusive.

 

Thanks,

Bill

The cover of M.Welsh's colour book looks to show preserved vehicles. Could interest me, but I wondered how many images show the genuine article taken in BR days as distinct from preservation?

[pete_mcfarlane]

The picture on the cover is at Horstead Keynes, but in BR days. There are only a couple of pictures of preserved vehicles - the Bulleid Restaurant first that was on the Meon valley, and a SECR 6 wheel birdcage van (rather like the one I've just scratchbuilt). There are a few vehicles in Army service but everything else is in BR condition. It's a rather nice book. 

[Rivercider]

The cover of M.Welsh's colour book looks to show preserved vehicles. Could interest me, but I wondered how many images show the genuine article taken in BR days as distinct from preservation?

I have taken a rough count and would say the pictures are roughly:-

 

60 - in service, though including some on end of steam charters, or possibly stored

25 - stored/withdrawn or in departmental use, 

5 - preserved/MOD..

 

cheers

Edited June 22, 2013 by Rivercider

[Ben04uk]

Thanks for input on the Southern coaches - what about GWR coaches such as Hawksworths? Did they last until the 1970s and did they receive blue/grey livery?

 

And what of LMS coaches as well?

[phil-b259]

Thanks for input on the Southern coaches - what about GWR coaches such as Hawksworths? Did they last until the 1970s and did they receive blue/grey livery?

 

And what of LMS coaches as well?

 

From other posts on this forum I believe a few of the postwar 'porthole' design got Blue and Grey - though I don't believe they lasted long

[Ravenser]

The largest category of late survivors into blue/grey among passenger coaches were ex LNER buffets , with two Gresley buffets making it into 1976 and a Thompson buffet lasting as late as 1978

 

Small numbers of LMS and LNER design sleepers survived until 1971-2 (though they may actually have been built after 1948)

 

Amongst NPCS , the Maunsell Van Bs and PMVs survived until 1986, and Stanier/Period 3 LMS BGs into the early 80s 

[multiprinter]

 IIRC the Paddington to Milford sleeper(s) were B & G Hawkesworth stock in the early 70s.

'phil-b259' is correct that there were LMS porthole stock in B & G, though I can't for the life of me remember I've seen photos.

[The Stationmaster]

 IIRC the Paddington to Milford sleeper(s) were B & G Hawkesworth stock in the early 70s.

'phil-b259' is correct that there were LMS porthole stock in B & G, though I can't for the life of me remember I've seen photos.

A sleeper that I travelled down to South Wales in during the very early 1970s was a Hawksworth vehicle in blue & Grey.

[multiprinter]

A sleeper that I travelled down to South Wales in during the very early 1970s was a Hawksworth vehicle in blue & Grey.

Thanks for confirming that my memory is still functioning reasonably well Mike. Somewhere. I'm sure. there is a photo of a Hawkesworth sleeper in B & G in the yard at Milford.

[mark54]

As far as I am aware, none of the 4 Hawksworth first class sleeping cars received blue/grey livery. However at least 3 Thompson second class sleepers in blue/grey were allocated to the WR.

 

Mark

[TheSignalEngineer]

There is an LMS BSK in B/G pictured at Plymouth here dated 1 June 1968- http://www.rail-online.co.uk/ImageView.aspx?id=1f475a5e-1af4-409e-b983-f3a9a0bb9abc

 

The train was the 0840 Penzance - Wolverhampton.

Edited June 22, 2013 by TheSignalEngineer

[Phil Bullock]

Thanks for input on the Southern coaches - what about GWR coaches such as Hawksworths? Did they last until the 1970s and did they receive blue/grey livery?

 

And what of LMS coaches as well?

Late 60s not the 70s - and yes a very few select Hawkesworths did get blue/grey, not just the sleepers and BGs either

 

Phil

[Ben04uk]

No one produces the LMS BSK in RTR OO gauge do they?

[jimwal]

I traveled in LMS design BR built sleeping cars in the early 1970s. These were in blue/grey and in Euston to Liverpool and Manchester services. I have seen photos of LMS porthole BSKs in blue/grey, I believe these were the only other passenger carrying LMS type so treated.

Examples of most post-war NPCCS received blue/grey, the notable exception being horseboxes due to rapid loss of traffic and early withdrawal.

 

Jim