The Waverley Route revisited!

[great northern]

OK, preliminary thoughts Peter.

 

1. Lift out sections, however well and precisely constructed, are always a potential problem area. My experience has been that over time, and with repeated use, things do tend to shift, not a lot, but just enough so that alignment is not quite perfect, and that leads to derialments. Best practice is to have the fewest tracks possible on any removeable section for that reason, so I'd be a little concerned that you are planning four on each of yours.

 

2. What jumps out at me is all that hidden track to the right of Waverley station. How do you keep it clean? How do you get at anything that comes off under there, and believe me, it will? Most important though, you have a length there that most people would give their eye teeth for, so why cover a lot of it up?  That looks to me to be at least 10ft that could be used much more effectively.

 

3. 3 inches is the absolute minimum needed to get one line to pass over or under another, and working to such tolerances invites problems. How do I know? been there - done it.

 

4. Will it be possible to access the windows via those alcoves in front of them?

 

5. You still have the fiddle yard behind Waverley, and like Gordon S, I foresee big problems there. If one takes minimum distances, I calculate from the front:- open area ? 6 inches. Carriage sidings as shown come below the station, so I can't see how to avoid that. Then we have a single running line, which needs 2 inches, followed by a platform, which has two running lines on the other side. I have kept my platforms to the minimum that looks credible, and follows official requirements, and that means 2 inches. Two more running lines follow, taking up 3 and a half inches, another platform, 2 inches, then three running lines, which need 5 and a half inches, another platform, 2 inches, then three more running lines, another 5 and a half inches. That comes to a total of 28 and a half inches, and it can't be compressed further. Then you have what looks like a scenic break?, followed by a four road fiddle yard. That will need a minimum of 8 inches, if you want to get your fingers down the side of trains, which is essential if you need to re-rail anything. Your furthest track then is just over three feet away. My station baseboard is 3ft wide, and I have taken all these measurements directly from it. I'm 5ft 9, and I can just reach the far side from the operating well, at full stretch. I certainly wouldn't like to try railing anything up at that stretch though, apart from the added hazard that I risk catching lamps, signals etc with my arm while doing so. If you are reaching over a scenic break as well, the problems are compounded still more. I know I keep banging on about this, but it really is a recipe for disaster. Any fiddle yard needs to be in easy and comfortable reach, in my opinion.

 

6. Your carriage sidings are accessed from hidden points, so you will need indicators to confirm that they have thrown, and are correctly set. Even then, if they don't quite throw fully, or one wheel of stock in the carriage sidings is not quite properly on track, you will get derailments under there, which will be a right pain, literally. Again, how do I know? I tried it.

 

7. I accept what you say about goods trains, fixed rakes are best, but where are they going to be stored? Cassettes are great, but 4ft long is the practical maximum length, so even if you use your carriage sidings as cassette spur(s) - a good idea I think for shorter trains, you are going to have to see goods stock in those sidings, when they shouldn't be there, and you are going to have to use two or more cassettes to get a decent length train. The one drawback of my cassette system is that goods stock, being lighter, is easier to derail while putting the cassette in place, which would cause endless frustration if that didn't become apparent until the train was under the covered section.

 

 I'm sorry that you get a lot of negativity from me Peter, but it all comes from personal, and bitter experience.

[LNER4479]

Looks like you've walked a fine tightrope there Peter in getting in what you want but keeping on side with 'The Boss'!

 

My only question relates to the two main circuits and what happens where they cross along the bottom right hand side where it says 'scenic break'. Is this a flat crossing, is it a pair of double junctions (so that you can go from one circuit to another) or does one run over the other so you have the 'looped figure of eight' design (ie a train goes twice round the room before returning to its start point). If it's the latter then that obviously alters the gradients.

 

Also (oops, sorry, another question) not quite sure what your intentions are regarding working in and out of the carriage sidings? If a station pilot is to shunt stock in and out of there, then that rather implies having to stop and reverse inside the covered section along the top, right hand wall. How would you know you'd cleared the points in the tunnel? An alternative might be to have a shunting spur running alongside in the open (so to speak) but you'd have to reconfigure the track on the station throat so as to get at the platforms you wish to shunt in and out of.

 

Hope that helps.

[bigwordsmith]

Gilbert & Robert - thanks for coming back

 

Going in turn, I'll pick up your points

 

1) Lift out. I've got two of them. The one over the loo door, which is most likely to be moved, and the one over the stairs which will o;ly be removed when loading/unloading the loft, for example for the garden cushion and Christmas Decorations movements, both of which are very seasonal. I've designed  them both to have no points crossing junctions and plan to learn from the best pracice of those modellers who carry their models around the exhibition circuit in terms f fixings and alignments.

 

Without them the option is duck unders, which as Larry found on his last, albeit short-lived, line are a pain in the back.

 

2) Hidden track to he right of Waverley. Fair point Gilbert, I have wondered about having it visible, perhaps by putting it in a cutting, so that pics of Galashiels don't show them, but the observer in his helicopter can see them. This also obviates the problems of shunting  from the headhunt. Ideas on how to better use it, without stealing the visual thunder from Galashiels would be much appreciated.

 

3) Tunnels/ Bridges. I've allowed 3 inches as my working height difference, and again plan to have easy access from above so that if anything does fall off it can be pulled through from above on one side or the other

 

4) Window access. No. I've decided instead to use portable Air con units to cool the place down

 

5) Baseboard width. - that's a fair point. I'm 6'2 and have worked on a 3'6 baseboard in the past, but I can't see anywhere else to put the loops, unless I can talk Mrs. S into allowing me to run them on the un ballasted side on the bottom RH corner. This may happen, but I'm not pushing that door until we're up and running!

 

6) See answer 2

 

7) I've never been a lover of trucks. IN fact my old friend and building partner from many years ago who now lives in Scotland was only allowed to run goods trains around Abbotsmead on the strict promise that the got the job of re-railing them. My experience of goods trains is very similar to that of Gordon the Blue Engine when he was demoted to dealing with them, and that excellent tale from the Revd. Awdry has probably coloured my view!

 

Accordingly I plan to have a couple of mixed goods in fixed formations that trundle slowly around the line from and to the storage loops , and never actually stop anywhere! Apart from that I might do a small pick up goods from Galashiels that can run to the suburban line in Waverley, or maybe we should turn that into a goods dock. Certainly you can run vans through a passenger station, and I plan to use GUVs in many of the passenger trains as well as some Mk1 parcels vans. The jury's still out on 4-wheelers, even though they would be prototypical!

 

8)  The diamond crossing. I've drawn this as a straight forward flying crossover. It could be replaced with double slips ( Not prototypical), but I don't have the length for a facing and trailing crossover as this is at the high point from the transition between high and low level. I have wondered about having the high level tracks descend by about 1.5" from Waverley to that point, and climb back up again round the back of the Shed, as this would allow me to soften the gradients for the low level and make the whole thing (a) more interesting and (b) much more challenging!

 

So overall I actually agree with everything you're saying ,but am slightly stuck by my self-imposed constraints. However my three 'Red Lines which we'll die in the trenches for' are the need for 2 stations, the need to re-use the Waverley Shed, and the demand from 'The Boss' for a corner of the loft that will be forever her domain.

 

Thanks for this ideas, let the discussion continue!

 

Peter

Edited October 9, 2014 by bigwordsmith

[jon_1066]

Those two diamonds will kill one of your ideas - to let two trains off and potter about with a third.  They will have to cross each other and so one will have to stop for the other at the diamond - thus will not be "fire and forget".  More forget then there's a fire (well crash anyway)

[bigwordsmith]

Rats Jon - you've spotted the flaw in my cunning plan, especially as I wasn't planning interlocking.

 

Scurries back to drawing board....

[great northern]

Thanks Peter - the "red lines" are helpful, and duly noted. What is the width of Waverley shed please? I know you were going to widen it, but I can't find anything to tell me how much?

[bigwordsmith]

Hi Gilbert

 

The Shed is currently 90cm (3')  wide, which includes about 20 cm of back scene which I'm proposing to use to run the Waverley station lines. I think if I can use it as is that would be fine. It is 10'6  long in old money,and again there's no compelling reason to lengthen it.

[bigwordsmith]

Right  following lots of feedback, especially from Gilbert, here's plan 11 and this should tick most of the boxes!

 

 

I've moved Waverley to the 'East' from the last plan, which has allowed me to ease the curves at its 'West' end to a minimum of 40" radius.

 

I've also binned the idea of re-using the existing Waverley shed layout. It hurt, like most breakups, and meant lot of soul searching before taking the decision,  but hey we were only together for four years and I learnt a great deal from that experience.

 

I'm also planning to recycle the Heljan turntable from the shed to the end of the fiddle yard so I can use it to release and turn locos. This means the fiddle yard serves a fivefold role of destination, servicing shed, fiddle yard, carriage depot and loco turning point

 

All this means that every part of the layout is fully accessible. The only weak construction link comes in the shape of the removable section to allow access to the loo. My thoughts there keep turning to the idea of a smart viaduct on a swing mechanism/ I'm sure that there must be some very durable and highly machined aviation or other engineering part that is beyond viable life in its original role but could give the kind of precision needed to work in this line's lifespan, so the hunt will be on for that!

 

In terms of running I think you can get pretty much everywhere you're likely to need to be.

 

My plan is to have 2 fixed goods trains that can start in the fiddle yard then trundle round the line to Galashiels where they can either shunt a bit or run the loco round then trundle back again . Alternatively, they could do a circuit then shunt into Waverley's relief road between platforms 1 & 2, where a relief loco can then haul the trucks back into the fiddle yard.

 

In terms of passenger and van traffic there is the potential to run up to 16 different fixed rakes without the layout seeming crowded.  This would be made up as follows:

 

10 in the fiddle yard

2 at Galashiels

4 in Waverley made up of two on the loops and two in the suburban side.

 

I have a plethora of coaches, almost all proprietary, but I'm not sure I actually have enough to satisfy such demand but I'll certainly aim to run the following:

 

2 Pullmans ( 8 coaches) 

1 Full parcels ( 10 bogies)

4 Express passenger - mostly Mk 1s with some Thompsons (9 bogies)

3 stopping trains  (5 bogies, plus 2- 3 vans) mix of Gresleys and Ex LMS Staniers

4 DMUs

1 Sleeper with car carriers ( 12 bogies)

 

I may also have the odd visiting football specials - I quite fancy putting the cat among the pigeons by recreating 'Plymouth Wanderers vs Hibernians' which would feature a string of brown and cream Hawksworth and Mk1s hauled by my Golden Ochre Western!

 

Finally I have a rake of 8 Ian Kirk Gresleys in very fetching teak livery to run behind my P2 as a ghost train!

 

So plenty of stock, and the more I think about it while writing this latest reply the more I realise that Gilbert's point about shunting locos being an almighty faff that will actually add little to the fun of the railway is probably very wise.

 

Operationally I'll need to have separate control panels for Waverley, the Fiddle Yard and Galashiels, which leads onto the potential for up to three operators, but as I plan to also use my wheelie chair, the whole thing can still be managed by single operator?

 I look forward to everyone's further input and ideas. 

 

ATB

 

Peter

 

 

[jon_1066]

Are you dead set on modelling Galashiels as well?  If not your Fiddle Yard could go where Galashiels is and your existing MPD could go where you currently have the fiddle yard.  This would give you the advantage of being able to run directly between the fiddle yard and Waverley without running around the relief roads behind the station.  With a one man build even without Galashiels this should keep you going for a long time.  

[muddys-blues]

Are you dead set on modelling Galashiels as well?  If not your Fiddle Yard could go where Galashiels is and your existing MPD could go where you currently have the fiddle yard.  This would give you the advantage of being able to run directly between the fiddle yard and Waverley without running around the relief roads behind the station.  With a one man build even without Galashiels this should keep you going for a long time.

 

I would tend to agree with Jon there, I like your plan, but for me the illusion is setting trains off for distant destinations, where as you have a 20' or so run out of Waverley and you are in Galashiels, in my mind Galashiels would be ok if both stations are served by a hidden fiddle yard where you can hold the trains for sometime allowing for the illusion of travelling time.

 

But Peter it is your layout, and I have just given you my opinion on the Galashiels station, sorry if I my comment sounds negative.

 

Happy modelling

Craig

[jon_1066]

eg

 

 

You can hide one set of lines behind your MPD and have the other set in front.  Access to the MPD is from Waverley itself.  Four lines come into the fiddle yard (to save having points on your lift out section).  

[bigwordsmith]

Bloomin 'Eck Jon - Is that templet? If so I gotta get me one because what I'm doing right now will soon leave me even balder than I'm heading!

 

Great inspiration and ideas many, many thanks

[jon_1066]

It's Scarm.  I was intrigued by the point work on the old photo on Page 4 and got carried away!

 

One other idea.  Stick with two tracks and shove the MPD tight into the corner with the tracks in front.

 

 

The MPD would act as the backscene for the track.  You can still operate it or simply use it as a scenic storage area. The track into Waverley would lend itself to terminating services taking the left branch and through services the right.

 

Assuming I got your measurements correct you should easily get 8 coach trains in the station and fiddleyard.  Minimum radius is 40".

 

Just thinking about construction and this would also lend itself to a phased construction.  

So Phase 1 is put the MPD in place.  

 

Phase 2 Extend to build Waverley.  You can then operate the layout using cassette as an out and back with the cassettes in front of the MPD

 

Phase 3 would be to extend around to the fiddle yard in front of the toilet but only put the point work on the left hand side of the fiddle yard (as you look at the drawing).  You can still operate as an out and back once that is completed. 

 

Phase 4 would be to complete the circuit.

Edited October 14, 2014 by jon_1066

[bigwordsmith]

G'Day everyone

 

So I'm never going to get close to Jon's excellent work with the plotting app, but this is the latest incarnation.

 

 

I think looking at this one that operationally it's going to be a lot easier than anything else that has gone before, but sadly it does mean end of the line for Waverley Shed. But these things happen and it will make removing it from the current home of Bedroom 4 a lot easier than trying to manhandle an 11' x 3 baseboard in a single piece!

 

So I've taken just about every comment on board, and managed to get passing loops for both stations which inevitably means some hidden track.

 

The fiddle yard will be behind a scenic break, but wholly accessible, and I'm going to follow Dave's example of modelling one end of Waverley while hiding the other under a scenic bit. 

 

The door swing bridge is now a bit wider and will have a wee taste of Princes. St. Gardens in its scenery, but there will be quite a bit of diving under scenery to hide the (4' radius) curves.

 

I've ended up with 4 through roads and five bay platforms on the main station and 2 through plus one bay at Galashiels which is still a work in progress .

 

 

Feedback as always very welcome!

 

ATB

 

Peter

[bigwordsmith]

Right Progress - in 12" to the foot scale!

 

Waverley Shed has moved to it's new home!

 

After the boss decided she want to take possession of Bedroom 4, commenting that I'm not exactly short of space over in the new loft,  the move was organised yesterday at near lightning speed courtesy of help from Alan my friendly carpenter who was hanging doors for us in the rest of the house.

 

It involved wrapping the whole thing in bubble wrap after removing the scenery and then carefully carrying it down the stairs, through the house to the loft room, only to discover we couldn't get it round the corner to go up the stairs to the train room!

 

So Alan suggested removing the window at the front of the lobby and feeding it through, which we duly did, and lo and behold we got her up the stairs and parked on one of the tables.

 

 

An hour later I managed to secure the trestles and re-attach the board - I really am going to hinge the whole layout as it just makes maintenance and wiring so much easier.

 

So she's now home and managed to arrive with only minor scenic damage to the front, which will be re-modelled anyway. And to add icing to the cake, the bubble wrap contained all the ballast that shook off in transit so Mrs. Smith was very happy that no dirt was topped onto her nice new floors!

 

 

This of course leads on to thoughts of a layout  redesign, which will now see trains exit Waverley to the East  pass round the back of the shed then curve across to do a scenic run  with the fiddle yard behind.

 

Now I'm off to draw it up, but not until the day has been spent returning Bedroom 4 to its proper use - storage space for garden cushions!!

[Donington Road]

Right Progress - in 12" to the foot scale!

 

Waverley Shed has moved to it's new home!

 

After the boss decided she want to take possession of Bedroom 4, commenting that I'm not exactly short of space over in the new loft,  the move was organised yesterday at near lightning speed

 

Now I'm off to draw it up, but not until the day has been spent returning Bedroom 4 to its proper use - storage space for garden cushions!!

 

 

Does this mean that the loverly Mrs Smith has waivered all rights to space in the new loft forever?

 

Wise move spending time sorting bedroom 4, good trade off to keep the lady happy 

 

Now that the shed is in the loft it should give you some perspective to where you are at.  I am in total agreement with Gilbert about keeping the fiddle yard in the open.  Why not make it a scenic marshalling yard/carraige sidings, running your locos on and off the stock back to the shed

[class"66"]

Plans looking realy interesting,great work...

 

cheers neil.

[bigwordsmith]

Thanks for the kind words folks

 

We've set of compromised, Mick, I offered her the right hand bottom corner (as seen on the plan) apart from a pair of tracks - OK it might be 4!,  and said I'll protect any thing stored beneath the tables, so she seems to be happy with that.

 

I measured it up today and it now leaves me 16' for Waverley East, and 10' for the fiddle yard, which as suggested will be open and visible. Looks like the South Wall of the layout is going to be all action and City scenes - a total contract from the North side which will be a country run plus station.

 

Knackered afte a hard day's moving stuff so off for a beer with the beloved!

[bigwordsmith]

So of course having promised a revised design, based on being able to incorporate the existing Shed layout, here it is!

 

 

So this now gives me:

 

Long scenic runs

Big station

Fiddle yard that can be seen and worked on

Destination station for trains to go to and from so I can at do some end to end running

Ability to be as sophisticated or simple as I like for OMO or many hands sharing controls

8-10 coach train formations

No massively tight curves on platforms

No hidden track work

Spirit of Waverley's East End 

 

And , well that's it for the moment, so let's have the feedback!

 

 

[Waverley West]

Hi Peter,

 

A few comments on the latest plan:

 

1. The Calton Tunnels are such a distinctive feature of Waverley East, I really don't think you should miss them out. I think you'd lose a big part of that Waverley East "spriit" without them. Could you not move the shed a little further "east" and make room for them?

 

2. I think you should definitely keep Waverley Shed if at all possible. Depots generate such operational interest and allow you to swap over locos and return them for servicing, etc., etc., which is a big part of the fun of running a layout (for me anyway). They make for a nice way to present your loco fleet too and keep them on show. 

 

3. The diversion around Galashiels looks a little contrived and artificial. Why is it there? I think making the scenery around that station realistic would be a lot easier without it and it doesn't seem to add much operational interest?? You could maybe add a larger freight yard or something there instead.

 

Just a few immediate thoughts!

 

Cheers

Dave

 

PS If you PM me your email address, I might have a few photos I can send you too. Obviously, I've tended to concentrate on the west end over the years, but I do have some from the east end too.

 

Edited to change "bit part" to "big part".

Edited October 20, 2014 by Waverley West

[bigwordsmith]

Hi Dave

 

All very good points, thanks for dropping them by, I agree about Calton tunnels, and am looking forward to Morris sending me some shots as he has kindly offered to do which will allow me to better work out how to get them in. Your shots will also be much appreciated - I'm PM-ing my email address.

 

I'm doing all I can to keep the shed in the mix - It may need a little tweaking - as you suggested moving it East, even possibly at the expense of seeing the running lines so clearly does make a lot of sense - I could move it slightly North East and bring it forward of the fiddle yard, but as I found last night, having the thing physically there makes the line drawings seem a tad irrelevant!

 

Galashiels' diversion route is simply a contrivance so that I don't have to run everything through both stations. IN my original vision you  would have to complete two full circuits  of the room before getting back to the 'Home' station, but sage device against hidden tracks and complex point work made me come a way form that idea. Looking back over some old pics I discovered at the weekend of my 'Abbotsmead' layout brought back the awful memories of trying to deal with 4 hidden storage sidings, so I'm glad I've been signalled away from that mistake.

 

I suspect that once I have clear boards and a wee end to play with track work, all will be much clearer, but you are right - your Princes St. Gardens  and West End shots are what make your layout seem so real.

 

 

ATB

 

Peter

[Waverley West]

One further point, Peter - if you can work it at all - I would put Waverley Shed to the west of Waverley, that way your engine movements off to the depot would replicate locos heading off to Haymarket better. It may turn out not to be possible but if I had a choice, that's what I'd do.

 

Cheers

Dave

[bigwordsmith]

Good Idea Dave - I had thought of that, bout I think I'm going to have to settle for a St. Margarets location to the East, or lose Galashiels. At least they kept their locos reasonably clean, and in fairness did supply a lot of motive power for the Waverley Route.

[Waverley West]

I quite understand Peter. I do like the idea of having another station on the layout. I always wanted one on WW, but with the size of the room it originally had to fit, I couldn't find the space. Hopefully, that will change now I've got more space too.

 

Cheers

Dave

[great northern]

Hi Peter,

 

You are not going to like this! You want to have Waverley East, Waverley shed and Galashiels. I don't think in practical terms you can have more than two out of the three, as the efforts to do so just create more problems in other areas. I think you need to ask yourself how often you are likely to have a team of operators available, as opposed to operating by yourself. That Waverley station approach looks very impressive, but will take a lot of time to operate alone, as will the shed. Trying to do justice to both would I think be impossible.

 

I was wondering why this latest plan looked so familiar, and then realised that it is very similar indeed to the one I devised for my loft layout, station at far left, but only one end modelled, large engine shed front right, with main line passing behind it, and "railway in countryside" on the other side of the room. I had 25 ft by 10- more width actually if I went into the sloping part of the roof- but I couldn't get another station in. I put my fiddle yard behind the running lines on the country side, where access looked very easy on paper. The result for me was that the shed was effectively redundant. Something that size is really a layout in its own right, and takes a lot of time to operate, especially if you try to do so correctly. I found it could take 20 minutes of moving locos about just to get one loco off shed and onto a train, whilst I could run several trains on the main line in that same time scale. Guess which won? And that fiddle yard that looked OK on paper? Well even just continually reaching across two tracks, plus a bit of scenery, made things less pleasant than I would have liked, and less pleasant resulted in less layout use.

 

My very strong feeling is that you have potentially two major advantages to exploit, and will get best results if you do so to the full. The first is that Calton tunnel gives you the perfect scenic break at the East end, which is an advantage few of us can have when designing a layout, so it should be incorporated for that reason alone, but also because as Dave says above you will lose the "spirit" of Waverley if you don't have them. "Spirit" is so important, that's why Andy Y was spot on when he thought of " Shakespeare Spirit" as the name for the trophy to commemorate Dave.

 

Your other potential advantage is that you can't model the West end of the station. That may sound a strange statement, how can it be an advantage not to be able to model the whole thing? Well, you can't, so Waverley has to end abruptly. Again though, the real thing comes to your aid. Looking at photos, ones eye is caught by that lovely decorative screen across the front of the overall roof, and by the bay platforms projecting out from there. And then one sees..... a major road bridge crossing the whole thing, and effectively cutting the station in two!  The gods are smiling on you Peter. So, model the first bit of the roof and the screen, get that built for you if necessary, as it will do so much for the whole thing, and then put the road across, and a sky board immediately behind that. That is the end of the real world, and it leaves a number of tracks heading West, and off scene.

 

Now I come to yet another advantage, which is the length of your room. You can come round from the East through the tunnel with four tracks, and do that right at that end. Those tracks can then fan out into a very impressive station throat, and allow access to through and bay roads, all within I reckon half the length of the room. The other half is off scene, it has to be if you are to preserve the illusion of reality, but it is the perfect place to put the fiddle yard. Why? Because on your latest plan as drawn, you have six tracks running on the straight, off which you can take the points necessary to split into more storage roads. If you start the corresponding fan of points at the other end to the "North" of the lifting section for the WC, you have a lovely fiddle yard, and one which is readily accessible. What's more, you could plan a small workbench area in too, and a cassette spur. I'm pretty hopeless at drawing plans, but I'll try to sketch something out, and put it on here shortly.

 

The other side of the room? Some Waverley Route scenery sweeping along that lovely length, Galashiels, or a station anyway, as drawn, and, If it bothers you as much as it would me, that "by pass" so that ECML trains can be differentiated from Waverley Route ones. I don't think it matters so much on plain track, but to see all the ECML stuff going through a Waverley route station wouldn't ring true for me, and if you are modelling the East end of Waverley, how can you not run those ECML expresses?

 

Last thing, why do I say "Galashiels, or a station anyway?" Well, from what I can glean from photos, Galshiels was a big sprawling place, and I can't see that you have the room to get anywhere near to reproducing the real thing. And now, having tried to demolish all you hold most dear, I think I should back off hurriedly.