Cadbury Bournville

[peter220950]

Sorry for the delay in progress, I couldn't load photo's properly, looks like it's a Firefox update issue as it all seems to be working using Google Chrome.

 

The supporting structure

 

I originally intended to put legs on the layout, supported under 12mm ply sections set into the diamond pattern, but after a few experiments decided that it was going to need a lot of timber or steel, and would be a bit wobbly, it’s a bit like a giraffe.  After a lot of thought and a look at the Screwfix catalogue I came up with a cunning plan.

 

The cunning plan

 

I am using the humble folding ladder as the basic support for the full layout.

 

 

It can be set up, as shown below, to give a platform arrangement.

 

 

Through the rungs of the ladder I have inserted four 1 metre lengths of 20mm square steel tube, drilled at the ends.

 

 

The last couple of days has been spent drilling and tapping four of Aldi’s finest spirit levels, at a huge cost of around £1.99 each. These then have a 6mm stud inserted and glued in with super glue and a wing nut attached.

 

They fit into holes in the ends of the steel bars, creating a cantilevered support.

 

 

The canal section provides the mass for stability of the layout, and comprises two 1.80m long 12mm mdf box sections, though I might drill some holes in to lighten the sections a bit. One end bolts to the second section and the box sits on the ladder  frame.

 

 

At the overhanging end a single support leg is provided by an Ikea wardrobe rail with an adjustable base screwed into the end. (The original idea for all of the legs)

 

 

A timber support batten is screwed to the sides of the canal box, providing support to one side of the baseboards and the spirit level supports hold the outer sides.

 

Long 6mm threaded studding passes through aluminium tubes built into the baseboards and the canal section, which when tightened up clamp the two boards either side of the canal section together into a solid structure. The four curved boards are then attached to the ends, again supported by Ikea rails and adjustable feet.

 

 

The boards have been assembled with end panels clamped on as they aren’t yet all attached but it seems to be working, fingers crossed.

 

Looks like I'm going to need a bigger house........

[TheSignalEngineer]

For anyone interested in this area  'The Railways of Cadbury and Bournville' by Derek Sharpe, http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/customer-media/product-gallery/0954212908/ref=cm_ciu_pdp_images_0?ie=UTF8&index=0, has 50 pages including around 70 photos, drawings and maps on Cadbury railways and a similar amount on the Midland shed at Bournville.

[peter220950]

For anyone interested in this area  'The Railways of Cadbury and Bournville' by Derek Sharpe, http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/customer-media/product-gallery/0954212908/ref=cm_ciu_pdp_images_0?ie=UTF8&index=0, has 50 pages including around 70 photos, drawings and maps on Cadbury railways and a similar amount on the Midland shed at Bournville.

 

There's also Bournville Steam and Chocolate by Mike Hitches, http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bournville-Steam-Chocolate-Mike-Hitches/dp/B002DID9X2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372326799&sr=8-1&keywords=Bournville+steam+and+chocolate

 

Both these books came out while I was researching to do the same, although I ended up with more than twice the number of photo's I felt there was never going to be enough room for 3 books!

 

Midland Main Lines - Bromsgrove to Birmingham, by Middleton Press, also has 5 pages, as well as some photo's of the nearby Austin Works at Longbridge, another suitable case for a similar project.

[Edge]

There's also Bournville Steam and Chocolate by Mike Hitches, http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bournville-Steam-Chocolate-Mike-Hitches/dp/B002DID9X2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372326799&sr=8-1&keywords=Bournville+steam+and+chocolate

 

 

 Yoink winging its way towards me as I type, er, speak

[jwealleans]

I think the SNCF ferry van in the prototype photo is one of the SNCF-built ones, dating from the mid-1960s- it appears to have roller bearings. The model is of an earlier design, perhaps ex-PLM; these lasted into the late 1960s.

 

I can't disagree with any of that, Brian, except to say that the PLM ones (and more were built by the SNCF during or just after the war) were retrofitted with roller bearings - vice the one in the NRM and the one at Mulhouse.  I think they may have lasted until the 1970s as well.  Coincidentally, not having had any of these in my photo collection up to now, there's half a one in a picture I bought at Wigan of an Italian ventilated van.

 

I don't have drawings of the SNCF one to compare but it looks very like the same basic design without the lower side vents.

[Fat Controller]

I can't disagree with any of that, Brian, except to say that the PLM ones (and more were built by the SNCF during or just after the war) were retrofitted with roller bearings - vice the one in the NRM and the one at Mulhouse.  I think they may have lasted until the 1970s as well.  Coincidentally, not having had any of these in my photo collection up to now, there's half a one in a picture I bought at Wigan of an Italian ventilated van.

 

I don't have drawings of the SNCF one to compare but it looks very like the same basic design without the lower side vents.

The later build had a one-metre longer wheelbase (8m against 7m, IIRC) and proportionately longer body. The body was of ply, and those upper panels not fitted with vents were of metal, with horizontal ribs. The photo would have been very early in their career, though, as the markings are in pre-UIC style. If you ever fancy a go at one, I've a 4mm drawing..

[jwealleans]

Thanks for that, but they'd be a bit modern for me.  Peter may fancy a crack, though, once he's got this up and running.

[Adam]

Thanks for that, but they'd be a bit modern for me.  Peter may fancy a crack, though, once he's got this up and running.

 

As might I, PM on its way Brian...

 

Adam

[TheGhostofNigelGresley]

Looks like I'm going to need a bigger house........

The most oft heard lament in the 7mm section of RMWeb......

[Mike Bellamy]

Interesting use of the ladder. Our club N Gauge layout uses one like that to support their lighting units. When fully extended it is just the same length as the layout and they have built wooden supports at each end then suspended the ladder between the timbers. Strip lights fixed to timber are then held up with cable ties and a wooden fascia fitted to the front. Looking at the layout you would have no idea that a folding ladder is above it !!

 

Mike

[peter220950]

Now there’s a fine line between carefully preparing a layout and OCD, and I think I may have crossed it this week.

 

Not content with taking all of the vertical and 45 degree levels out of the spirit level and putting them back horizontal, (I now have 11 different horizontals!) I decided I needed to be able to bolt them together when in transit or storage. Two 80 thou Plastikard plates were made and drilled and then sprayed yellow to match, this then meant that I had to build a keeper bolt in the middle of one level to hold them when the layout was erected.

 

 

By this time I was truly lost and sprayed up the ends of the cross bars in matching yellow to help with positioning them in the ladder rungs. A quick trawl on Ebay brought some nice end caps which round the whole thing off.

 

 

Time which should have been spent modelling I hear you say. – Quite right.

 

 

I have just spent the day burning out my drill, to lighten the centre canal section a bit, I wanted some mass to anchor the layout but the canal sections were 12kgs apiece and these have to be lifted into the roof for storage.

 

I have completed one section and saved 2.1kg. Now all I need to do is get a new drill and start again on the other one.

 

 

The end plates are now on all the boards and I'm just about ready to start testing the theory with flexitrack and a bit of Terra-forming to check levels.

 

I have yet to address the surface of the canal but I would love to get something with the right surface which rolls up, that way I could apply it when setting up and avoid having any joins in the water. I have looked at the materials used on display stands, or might just try applying a roll of clingfilm across the surface when setting up. Unfortunately there are no locks in this section of canal. Something to ponder on for the next month or two while I'm track building.

 

Oh well only 17 points to make next.

 

 

 

 

[peter220950]

Interesting use of the ladder. Our club N Gauge layout uses one like that to support their lighting units. When fully extended it is just the same length as the layout and they have built wooden supports at each end then suspended the ladder between the timbers. Strip lights fixed to timber are then held up with cable ties and a wooden fascia fitted to the front. Looking at the layout you would have no idea that a folding ladder is above it !!

 

Mike

 Mike,

 

Quite a weight to support above the layout, I wouldn't trust my woodwork to support such a structure I can imagine the consequences! It might be worth considering for our Club layout which is awaiting a suitable rig and will need a span of around 5m, do you have a photo of your arrangement?

 

I am looking at two options for the lighting rig, a pair of aluminium disco lighting bars, which bolt together in the centre, and which will give me about 3.6m clear span, and a folding display stand which is quite light but maybe too flimsy, I will have to address the issue soon, as I will need to incorporate holes for the supports within the curved end board sections. I don't think I'm going to be able to clear 6.5m with one span.

[Mike Bellamy]

 Mike,

 

Quite a weight to support above the layout, I wouldn't trust my woodwork to support such a structure I can imagine the consequences! It might be worth considering for our Club layout which is awaiting a suitable rig and will need a span of around 5m, do you have a photo of your arrangement?

 

I am looking at two options for the lighting rig, a pair of aluminium disco lighting bars, which bolt together in the centre, and which will give me about 3.6m clear span, and a folding display stand which is quite light but maybe too flimsy, I will have to address the issue soon, as I will need to incorporate holes for the supports within the curved end board sections. I don't think I'm going to be able to clear 6.5m with one span.

I must admit that we were all concerned about the weight but the guys on the layout built substantial wooden supports at both ends - probably from 3"x3". There was a slight dip in the middle but that was more about the way the locking mechanism worked and was hidden by the facia board. Sorry no photos - it was only used once at a show earlier this year and isn't set up like that in the clubrooms - besides he wanted his ladder back to get into the loft at home !

[peter220950]

I must admit that we were all concerned about the weight but the guys on the layout built substantial wooden supports at both ends - probably from 3"x3". There was a slight dip in the middle but that was more about the way the locking mechanism worked and was hidden by the facia board. Sorry no photos - it was only used once at a show earlier this year and isn't set up like that in the clubrooms - besides he wanted his ladder back to get into the loft at home !

 

 

Mike,

 

Thanks anyway, I might give it a try for the club using the ladder on it's side, which would be stronger.

 

Regards

 

peterL

 

I must admit that we were all concerned about the weight but the guys on the layout built substantial wooden supports at both ends - probably from 3"x3". There was a slight dip in the middle but that was more about the way the locking mechanism worked and was hidden by the facia board. Sorry no photos - it was only used once at a show earlier this year and isn't set up like that in the clubrooms - besides he wanted his ladder back to get into the loft at home !

 

 

Mike,

 

Thanks anyway, I might give it a try for the club using the ladder on it's side, which would be stronger.

 

Regards

 

peterL

[TheSignalEngineer]

As previously promised a set of photos of the crossbar-style Stop Shunt signal taken in 1976.

Apologies for the quality, they were taken in gloomy weather with a disc film pocket camera.

 

 

 

 

All pictures Copyright C E Steele

[peter220950]

As previously promised a set of photos of the crossbar-style Stop Shunt signal taken in 1976.

Apologies for the quality, they were taken in gloomy weather with a disc film pocket camera.

 

Cadbury signal_0001r copy.jpg

 

Cadbury signal_0002r copy.jpg

 

Cadbury signal_0003r copy.jpg

 

All pictures Copyright C E Steele

 

 

Many thanks for these, as usual it's not necessarily all about the subject, the vans, buildings, fencing, and building materials in the background and point lever in the foreground are all useful modelling pointers that help to produce the right 'atmosphere' in a layout. It also gives good weathering guides, as most of the photo's I have are black and white.

 

Regards

 

peterL

[peter220950]

One step forward, two steps back.

 

For the last three days I have been getting a coat of clear varnish onto the first four boards and guess what? – I’ve found a major downside of lattice construction, they take ages to paint! They also use a lot of varnish, I have used about half a litre on four of the boards so far. Why seal them? – Well I wanted to have a decent surface in the fiddle yard areas and board lattice work to stop it getting grubby, and the MDF ends needed a coat to seal them from moisture. Given my time again I should have sprayed them when at the bare baseboard and end stage and then just coated the plywood track surfaces, but we live and learn. Still 4 down 6 to go.

 

 

And it's getting quite hard to get into the work room for boards

 

 

On the negative side I had started to put some of the gradients in, making nice smooth curves to the admittedly steep gradients. 

 

 

I had done my homework in the pre-planning stage and established just how steep I could get the climb, and everything seemed set fair. Having put the first ramp in I popped a bit of Peco track down to check that all was well, and sure enough the loco wizzed up and down with no problem. Just as an afterthought I attached a couple of wagons to have a play, then found the fatal flaw in the planning, wheelslip. This now meant I had a perfect layout to display loco’s but unfortunately it would not take any stock! – Back to the drawing board.

 

A few minutes spent popping lead into the boiler established that traction could be improved, but not too much, as with a steep incline the more lead in the loco boiler, the more weight to take up the incline, and hence more wheelslip.

 

I have therefore had a couple of days going back to basics, and establishing what the minimum slope needs to be, and re-designing start and finish levels to suit, I have also made them straight gradients, abandoning putting transition curves on the slopes as they just mean the slope is steeper in the middle. Having established the two pinch points, the bridge over the main lines and the track to the fiddle yard under the main lines, I had reference levels to play with and distances between. I have also got the level of the point to the exchange sidings and distances to the pinch points, from which I have been able to get the layout within to the minimum gradients possible.

 

They turn out to be around 1 in 15 in a couple of instances, still pretty steep, bearing in mind that the minimum on the Foxfield Railway is 1 in 17, but tests indicate I can run at least 4 or 5 wagons on loco’s with this, and most of the gradients will be hidden. I am also going to experiment with bearings in the wagon axles when I get a chance, to cut rolling resistance. All in all a pretty frustrating week, but at least I have come out of it with a positive outcome, it could so easily have meant the whole thing wouldn’t work.

 

A lesson to all, no matter how carefully you thought you have planned a layout on paper, keep testing the real thing, or at least a mock up.

 

Track building has also started with completion of a couple of points for the fiddle yards and a start on the Waterside track which is in concrete hardstanding and is being laid on foamboard to line up with 'traditional' sleepered track. All of this is in copperclad and soldered rail.

 

 

 

 

The ‘proper’ track hasn’t yet been started but I have cut sleepers to length in 6mm x 3mm hardwood and stained them up ready for a start to be made on the exposed sections of track.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[hartleymartin]

Use isopropol alcohol mixed with dry lock lubricant (graphite powder) and a syringe to pump small amounts of the mix into the bearings.

 

THese days when I assemble wagons I rub a 6B pencil on the ends of the axles. Wagons never need any other lubrication after that.

[peter220950]

Thanks for that Martin,

 

the more I have fettled the gradients the better things seem so I am now in the position that I think I can haul as many wagons as I need to, but I will pursue the weight/rolling resistance issue once all the track is down, it's an interesting subject that I hadn't thought much about before, and is certainly not widely covered in the modelling press, I think I may have the perfect test vehicle as the layout resembles the Land Rover test track more than a conventional layout.

 

 Aside from some of the Waterside track which is to be buried under roadway, and is therefore PCB, I hadn’t yet laid any other track. This week that has changed, with the second Waterside board having the pointwork built and all the checkrail installed.

 

 

 

 

Because the rail is within a paved area I have laid a second rail as shuttering for whatever I choose to fill in between the tracks with. This does, of course, double the amount of work on each point.

 

 

 As the fiddle yard areas have been varnished the previously prepared track was also laid. I have chosen to fix it with a UHU like glue from Wilko, fixing every other sleeper, (except at the ends of sections when I have fixed three adjacent ones), and then weighted the track down until dry. This seems to have worked, including the incline section, where the rail is bent in a way it doesn’t normally want to go. Time again will tell if it needs secondary fixing. I now have two boards with all of the track laid! – 20% down 80% to go, I did say it was going to take some time, although it must be said that in pure track terms it’s about 35% of the points and 30% of the track.

 

 

 

More importantly the first loco's have run on the layout!

 

 

 

There’s very little PCB track to lay now, and that’s already fabricated, the end concealed turning sections are C&L/Peco so I feel I have broken the back of track making, if not laying, though the next major job will be threading chairs onto rail for the remaining exposed track and main-line, when I get some more rail.

 

Wiring to these boards has also been completed but until I locate the connecting plugs and point control there are loose connecting wires.

 

 

[TheGhostofNigelGresley]

Rattling along at a ferocious pace Peter.

[peter220950]

Rattling along at a ferocious pace Peter.

Chris,

 

sometimes it doesn't seem like that, when you have to rip things up and start again, or when you realise you still have to do the same again many times over. I'm beginning to see the attraction of micro layouts, it means you can jump to the interesting bits relatively quickly.

 

One of the great benefits of RMWeb has proved to be the concentration of effort into one project in order to produce some progress, otherwise I would have yet again abandoned the layout for work on the Duchess. (Or the Y10, or the Warflats, or the 10t vans, or the Lima coach widening, or the Class 33............- you can see my problems!)

 

Thanks to all, you don't know it but you're keeping me on the straight and narrow, I might actually finish something.

 

Oh, and I've just bought some new toys, but they are for the layout.

[TheGhostofNigelGresley]

I think something a lot of us on here have been through, is the gradual dawning of realisation that any layout in 7mm is quite an undertaking, let alone one of the size and scope of yours.

 

I agree that a thread serves as a motivator for progress as well as a chronicle.

 

I have no idea what that complex looking electrical box is - I haven't even got any motive power yet at this end......

[peter220950]

I picked up the ESU Switch Pilot Servo (for that's what it is), from DCC Supplies, which appears to do all I want of it. It's basically a device to control 4 radio control servo's for use as point control or for operating signals and accessories, and not only for DCC layouts.

 

I was originally going to use the MERG C-Bus system for control, along with their kit for controlling 4 servos but it has a couple of flaws as far as I am concerned. Firstly, not a major obstacle, is the lack of provision to switch frog power. A Perspex servo mounting can be supplied which can mount micro switches but I am less inclined to rely on mechanical control of the switching. The main problem as far as I am concerned is my inability to understand the electronics sufficiently to get me out of trouble if I screw up making the kit. I have a MERG station shuttle which I spent a couple of days building, but which then didn’t work, this leaves you with a problem if you don’t know where to look to solve any problems.

 

The ESU unit has a plug in companion to provide switching for the frogs and there is a bonus in that you can attach push buttons to it to allow manual override of the points This will be a bonus as it means that while main layout control can be via DCC with a computer screen mimic diagram or on a separate operated board with push buttons. This dual use will be useful if I ever want to operate a part of the layout for testing etc.

 

Why servos? – Well I have been used to working with Tortoise motors, and even had the ZTC Accessory decoders to hand, but in addition to wanting to try something new I decided that the economics of the Servo were better.

 

Four Tortoise motors are  around £14.00 each, control decoders for DCC work out around £7.00 per point depending on what is used, so it’s still likely to be around £20.00 per point as an all up cost.

 

The ESU Switch Pilot Servo and Switch Extension module are around £51.00 and 4 servos can be had for around a tenner, giving a price per point of around £15.00. There are also some spare switch outputs which can be used for other items such as ground signals and accessories and using them for signals means you don't need £25.00 worth of frog switching unit, so it comes down to less than a tenner a signal.

 

It remains to be seen if it’s the right answer, I shall record the up and downsides as the work progresses. To date all I have managed to do is get it working, it needs some form of holder to locate it on the layout so I have built a master from Plastikard and square section which has been put into a mould for casting more in resin.

 

 

 

 

 

Should be cooked tomorrow so I can see if it works.

 

 

[peter220950]

Is it ever too hot to model??

 

I like to post some progress every week but this week things slowed down a bit, not due to lack of enthusiasm, but a combination of heat and other stuff going on. However before I beat myself up too much it’s only been about 4 weeks since I started from the bare baseboards, and these were completed about 5 years ago, so as soon as the weather cools off a bit soon I should be able to get some more done.

 

Having had spare time to ‘armchair model’, while doing other stuff like cleaning, gardening, and going out, I have had a couple of thoughts which have progressed the layout, without necessarily showing concrete progress.

 

Storage has started to become an issue, while I am fortunate in being able to erect the whole layout through the dining room onto the conservatory it’s never going to be a permanent arrangement. Having 12 boards lying around is beginning to become a problem, particularly as scenics and board ends are making them much more bulky.

 

The obvious solution was to store some in the roof, I am fortunate in having two loft spaces, one that came with the house, and one I built when I extended upwards over the garage. The end boards, at 600mm wide will just go through the modern trapdoor fitted over the garage, though the loft space is quite small. The next test was to see if the remaining boards would fit into the main roof. The 1.80m long canal section spine boards would just go up into the space and tilt to allow them to be stored and fortunately the other boards at 478mm just go through the clear opening of 480mm. I could say that it was planned, but it wasn’t.

 

 

 

As the days have passed the scheme adapted and I realised the by splitting the layout lengthways along the canal I could use both sides in the roof with a looped end to give continuous running at home on the industrial line.

 

 

In addition recent clearance of a book shelf over the bed in the work room work has also meant that I have room to actually erect ‘Waterside Lite’ – 3 of the boards, in the workroom as a shunting plank, or maybe even use it as a small exhibition layout. It’s on these three boards that I‘m going to concentrate efforts once all the track is laid and tested, it provides a small shunting layout with access to a hidden fiddle yard behind the Waterside buildings.

 

 

On the actual progress front, rather than the airy fairy stuff, I have spent what little time I have had on getting the trackbed levels done on the last ‘Waterside’ board and its connection the end board, and the one side of the bridge parapet. I have borrowed a hot wire cutter from the club, to cut the Styrofoam insulation, and managed to get most of the trackbed in, it now remains to make up the trackwork.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The remaining track which is on show will be Exactoscale chairs on hardwood sleepers, with only the hidden curved end sections on traditional Peco. The other three boards have had some trackbed installed, though it still needs some fettling to minimise the gradients, I have installed them in the roof to get a better idea of how it might work, as well as removing them from the work area. Needless to say in this weather you can’t spend more than a few minutes in the roof in the daytime.

 

 

 

 

The heat has also been a problem in resin casting the servo holders, as the resin is going off almost before it leaves the mixing cup. I have managed to get one done which has proved it to be a suitable way of getting the servos mounted in several arrangements.

 

 

 

 

[peter220950]

There’s not been much happening again for the last two weeks. Once again it’s not through lack of enthusiasm but SWMBO wants a new patio so the time has been spent digging two tons of soil out of the garden, moving a ton of stone back in, followed by half a ton of concrete, and carrying all the slabs around the back of the house, all this in 30degree temperatures. What’s more she doesn’t seem to think the foundation would make a good trackbed.

 

 

 

 

On the railway front things have also been slowed by the works to the corner board which takes the end of the bridge. As I suspected the levels have proved a bit of a pig to deal with, resulting in a change from this layout

 

 

 

to this

 

 

in order to reduce some of the inclines.

 

The track, which is all now Exactoscale chairs on hardwood sleepers, is taking a lot longer than the pcb to put together, and is much harder to adjust, so it looks like a long slog ahead, so much for having ideals, I should have used flexitrack.

 

 

 

To make it worse I have just run out of two bolt chairs and rail for the Cadbury track and find that C&L are on holiday, so I have hit a brick wall. I am away on holiday next week so can hopefully call in and pick up supplies from them, I thought I had enough rail in stock, but still need around 85 metres to complete. It’s surprising how points eat up the rail.

 

A quick view on how I am building the track, hardwood was purchased in lengths to the correct profile for the sleepers, it was then bundled into about 25 lengths, taped together with masking tape, then cut to length on the chop-saw. The sleepers are then fixed to a bit of old card and are stained with a wood dye.

 

 

Rail is pre-coloured with a quick waft of red oxide to the sides, some of it comes off when fitting the chairs but it gives a pretty good coverage as an undercoat for the track rust colour which will follow when the track has been tested fully.

 

 

The Exactoscale chairs are similarly attached to card or paper, still on their sprues,

 

 

and again sprayed with a mixture of red oxide, track brown and satin black in varying degrees to give some difference in colour.

 

 

I have then dropped them into a mixture of rusty brown weathering powder which means that when they are glued to the sleepers there’s very little further work once the rail is touched up with a rusty brown,

 

 

it also avoids the whole of the track being a monotone of ‘track dirt’ colouring.

 

So that’s the picture up to date, I shall be on holiday for the next couple of weeks or so, but once the materials are to hand I can get on with the adjacent board which will then mean over half of the trackwork will be complete.