peter220950 Posted July 15, 2014 Author Share Posted July 15, 2014 The steel underframe and chassis of the Cadbury Van 346 on SVR is of a tank wagon from around the pre 1927 specification. This is the last of it's type as well and is currently being restored on the SVR. As for the Caledonian Vans, only two of the original four now exist as well. The one in the photo has now been restored to the livery of LMS 304543 and the other van (278) is at the Kidderminster Railway Museum in a derelict state and awaiting it's turn at being restored. If you want anymore photos of Cadbury 346, I have a lot more on my Flickr page. Same goes for the Caledonian Vans. Gareth, many thanks for that, I shall have a closer look when I get into stock building. I did take some photo's at SVR back in the '90's but they are on that stuff called film, and not very good as it was getting dark when I took them - The tank wagon underframe is interesting, they did buy some second-hand tankers in in 1926 during the General Strike, to store fuel supplies, so it could be a remnant from then. It's also interesting to find actual quantities, as I only get to see what's in photo's, so useful to find out that there were only 4 Caledonan vans, I always imagined more somehow. I have a couple of resin kits to make of these, so I might go for all 4, depending on locating the running numbers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garethp8873 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 (edited) Gareth, many thanks for that, I shall have a closer look when I get into stock building. I did take some photo's at SVR back in the '90's but they are on that stuff called film, and not very good as it was getting dark when I took them - The tank wagon underframe is interesting, they did buy some second-hand tankers in in 1926 during the General Strike, to store fuel supplies, so it could be a remnant from then. It's also interesting to find actual quantities, as I only get to see what's in photo's, so useful to find out that there were only 4 Caledonan vans, I always imagined more somehow. I have a couple of resin kits to make of these, so I might go for all 4, depending on locating the running numbers. Hello Peter, That is no problem at all. I think the four Caledonian Vans that came from Cadburys were the first wagons to arrive on the Severn Valley Railway. Their numbers were 268 (CR 682, LMS 300682), 278 (CR 2080, 302080) and 266 (CR 4543, LMS 304543). There was a fourth Caledonian Van as well which was Cadbury 269. This van and 268's bodies were considered beyond economic repair at the time and converted to flat wagons for engineers use on the railway. When they were no longer needed, they too got cut up. I do not know if there were other Caledonian Vans at the Cadbury site bar these four vans. Your photo of 266 was probably took just as it was being painted up into it's LMS livery. As for 302080, this van is awaiting it's turn for restoration. Unfortunately it is rather derelict now. For some reason as well, it has two grates on the one side. May I guess that this originates from it's use at Cadbury perhaps? As for 346, this was purchased by the SVR from their Moreten site in Cheshire. This is a rather unique piece of Cadbury rolling stock at the end of the day as it is only example left of it's type and I have only seen photos of the these vans at Bourneville site. Gareth Edited July 15, 2014 by Garethp8873 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter220950 Posted July 15, 2014 Author Share Posted July 15, 2014 Gareth, Interesting stuff,thanks for the numbers. As I understand it the vans were latterly used to store 'crumb' (basically dried condensed milk) on Waterside, so that's probably why the ventilation grilles were added. After some sort of infestation most of the wooden bodied vans were burnt on Waterside Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beatty 139 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Chasewater was another recipient of ex Cadbury wagon and have an 8 Ton L&Y van they have in the museum building. I am aware that the museum have a number of Cadbury drawings including the engine shed, they may not be museums but a private members, but if you contact Barry Bull the museums curator he should be able to advise. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter220950 Posted July 17, 2014 Author Share Posted July 17, 2014 Useful info thanks Andy, I knew that Chasewater had the van, and, I think, the ex Midland signal that was by the weighbridge. I wasn't aware they had other drawings etc. though, so I will contact Barry, thanks again it's useful to get these snippets to fill in gaps in information. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
69843 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) Not that it is necessarily right to hijack the thread (sorry!), but does anyone know who holds the drawings for the Avonside tanks? I have tried Tynsley, but they don't know, nor do the North Gloucestershire Railway. Any help would be appreciated. Apart from that I do love this layouts progression. It is the finer details that are being incorporated that really set the scene Edited July 17, 2014 by 69843 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMartin90125 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Incredible stuff you've done there. I am toying with the idea of a ficticious bit of the Moreton site for when I do my big layout once the loft is sorted but in 4mm. Remember seeing the Hudswell many times over the years but nothing else railwise. Apart from one image of a station with a caption of a Jinty (I think) going to or coming from Moreton, the only info I ever came up with is on the Bourneville site but if I can do a more realistic representation, then I will as would like to do something more than just a siding behind a station platform with a Jinty and whatever brown vans. That said, I do like those Hornby freelance vans from the early 1970s. What colour where the coal hoppers that Mainline originally done and subsequently (messed up) by Dapol? Am more inclined to go with the light blue Mainline one being right but Dapol couldn't even get the right tools out despite having them and put the same number on the longer hopper as to the short one. Were these ever in yellow? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter220950 Posted July 17, 2014 Author Share Posted July 17, 2014 Not that it is necessarily right to hijack the thread (sorry!), but does anyone know who holds the drawings for the Avonside tanks? I have tried Tynsley, but they don't know, nor do the North Gloucestershire Railway. Any help would be appreciated. Apart from that I do love this layouts progression. It is the finer details that are being incorporated that really set the scene You're more than welcome to join in, the more the merrier, i have some outline drawings that are published in one of the books on Bournville, if you want a scan PM me and I will send it, otherwise it might be worth speaking to Mike Williams at Agenoria, as he is producing 7mm ones, so presumably has something to work from. Unfortunately the 'progression' has taken a back seat of late, but there are some developments that I will post separately soon. Basically I have a few things I would like to try out before committing fully to them, and I have had to re-do work recently because I was rushing things to get something to run, so a small test bed is being built. If you get anywhere with the drawings let me know, I will also have a dig around when I get home tomorrow to see if I've anything else. Incredible stuff you've done there. I am toying with the idea of a ficticious bit of the Moreton site for when I do my big layout once the loft is sorted but in 4mm. Remember seeing the Hudswell many times over the years but nothing else railwise. Apart from one image of a station with a caption of a Jinty (I think) going to or coming from Moreton, the only info I ever came up with is on the Bourneville site but if I can do a more realistic representation, then I will as would like to do something more than just a siding behind a station platform with a Jinty and whatever brown vans. That said, I do like those Hornby freelance vans from the early 1970s. What colour where the coal hoppers that Mainline originally done and subsequently (messed up) by Dapol? Am more inclined to go with the light blue Mainline one being right but Dapol couldn't even get the right tools out despite having them and put the same number on the longer hopper as to the short one. Were these ever in yellow? Colours of wagons is another difficulty, as most photo's I have are in black and white. I have seen a colour slide of the hoppers, which were powder blue, similar to the Mainline ones, with lettering in yellow, I am not aware of two sizes, there was only one as far as I know, I think it's an 8 ton, again I can't check all my stuff as I'm away at the moment, but I do know I have a builders black and white photo of one as it left the works. I have not ever seen any evidence of yellow bodies on the hoppers, early wooden coal wagons were blue with yellow lettering. As you note the vans were bauxite. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMartin90125 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Colours of wagons is another difficulty, as most photo's I have are in black and white. I have seen a colour slide of the hoppers, which were powder blue, similar to the Mainline ones, with lettering in yellow, I am not aware of two sizes, there was only one as far as I know, I think it's an 8 ton, again I can't check all my stuff as I'm away at the moment, but I do know I have a builders black and white photo of one as it left the works. I have not ever seen any evidence of yellow bodies on the hoppers, early wooden coal wagons were blue with yellow lettering. As you note the vans were bauxite. It was the ex-works picture I saw, may be the same one you mentioned. With the Dapol one being yellow with blue lettering, did whoever get the colours for body and print mixed up? Wouldn't surprise me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
L&Y Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Fascinating thread. Have to ask just what is your minimum radius. The picture of the tank engine 56029 just before a point the radius of which looks sharper than anything I've ever seen in 7mm. Sure this will be a cracking layout when you get there. Also what is the blue material your using as track support? Some kind of insulation maybe? Please keep up with the detailed photo's & information. O gauge is a new world for me..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter220950 Posted July 17, 2014 Author Share Posted July 17, 2014 Fascinating thread. Have to ask just what is your minimum radius. The picture of the tank engine 56029 just before a point the radius of which looks sharper than anything I've ever seen in 7mm. Sure this will be a cracking layout when you get there. Also what is the blue material your using as track support? Some kind of insulation maybe? Please keep up with the detailed photo's & information. O gauge is a new world for me..... Because the loco's are all 0-4-0's I can get away with 600mm radius, the ridiculous curves are at either end of the layout and will be hidden from view, so it shouldn't be too obtrusive, the only remaining issue will be buffer locking, which is connected to the couplings issue, hence my sidetrack into a small test piece for a week or two. The loco's are quite happy at such tight radii, Mike Williams of Agenoria has a test track on his stand running 14" curves with 0-4-0's. It was one of the attractions of going 'industrial' as you can work almost to 00 dimensions. The main line running through the middle will have much larger radius curves (5 or 6 foot) on separate narrow track boards that will loop around behind the operator, the jury is out as to whether I put these tracks in boxes to hide the trains until they come into scene. The intention is to have trains running the main line and outer loop of the industrial part, with some form of automation to provide constant variety of movement and to then shunt 'Waterside', which has more forgiving curves to allow stock to be pushed and pulled at will. Similarly I have pretty stupid gradients to get the layout to work but again most are hidden from view, it will mean however that trains in the works will be quite short. Not sure what the 'real' curves were like in the works, I could scale them off some of the drawings, but I do know that the only 0-6-0 that they owned kept falling off, and was sold on as unsuitable. The insulation is 50mm thick 'Styrofoam' which is very dense polystyrene foam that is both light and strong. It is used in the construction industry for under floors and in cavity walls and is great for carving with a hot wire (mind the fumes), or working with knives, files, and sanders as it doesn't disintegrate into tiny balls like 'normal' polystyrene. I got mine from Sheffield Insulations who have depots all over the place, I remain convinced that all it needs are timber sides and end plates and you have a ready made baseboard that's rigid light and strong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 You only tend to get buffer locking in reverse curves. On a plain curve there is no problem except for different length over hangs on the wagons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgood Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Not that it is necessarily right to hijack the thread (sorry!), but does anyone know who holds the drawings for the Avonside tanks? I have tried Tynsley, but they don't know, nor do the North Gloucestershire Railway. Any help would be appreciated. Apart from that I do love this layouts progression. It is the finer details that are being incorporated that really set the scene Designs etc sold to Hunslet Engine Co in 1935 following liquidation of Avonside's business - the bottom of this link may hold the key to knowing where to start looking…... https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/hunslet-engine-company.17136/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
69843 Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Thanks for the info lads, now to go hunting (Be vewy vewy quiet, I'm hunting Avonsides.....Coat already on!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgood Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) I've just picked up a nice s/h book 'Birmingham Railways In Old Photographs' by Mike Hitches (Sutton Publishing, 1992), which contains 13 excellent photos of the Cadbury railway. 8 of these are close-up studies of the Avonside tanks, and there are 3 lovely early views of trains containing their first loco, an 0-4-0 saddle tank. I do not recall seeing these images published elsewhere (not been able to check my other Cadbury books yet). Also a good selection of views of locomotives on the Austin Longbridge system. Just noted (and ordered!) the same author has another title - 'BOURNVILLE Steam and Chocolate' Edited July 23, 2014 by Osgood 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter220950 Posted July 23, 2014 Author Share Posted July 23, 2014 Bournville Steam and Chocolate is very good, the definitive work, however, is The Railways of Cadbury and Bournville by Derek Sharpe. My interest in Bournville in the '90's was initially to produce a book, (I've even got the rejection letter from Wild Swan!) but before I got it completed this book came out and although I had more information and photographs I felt there was no room in the market for another so turned my efforts into modelling the system instead. I will try to check out the Mike Hitches book, but suspect I may already have the photo's, as they tend to repeat a lot in various books, but you never know, thanks for that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 This is a cutting from a Model Railway news of vintage! Mark Saunders 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter220950 Posted July 26, 2014 Author Share Posted July 26, 2014 Thanks for that, useful both for validation of the colour scheme, and also for the parentage of the wagons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 The official of the hopper! Mark Saunders 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgood Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 (edited) There is an article with excellent 7mm scale dimensioned drawings of CADBURY No.9 by Don Townley in RAILWAY MODELLER November 1965. Edited July 27, 2014 by Osgood 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter220950 Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 Yes thanks, I have the article and have started to build it, but might go for the easy option of buying an Agenoria kit. I have either drawings, enough to produce drawings, or there are kits available for all of the loco's that ran in the works, with the exception of the Dick Kerr loco's which ran in the early years, there were three of these delightful loco's two of which unfortunately went off to fight the First World War and didn't come back. These remain something that I have to find drawings of. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
souwest Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Is there a source for transfers for for these gorgous locos? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter220950 Posted July 29, 2014 Author Share Posted July 29, 2014 Not as yet, I have an Alps printer, but not the skill to set it up, bought with the intention of doing my own, as it's possible with these to print white or yellow on clear transfer paper. I may well chicken out at some stage and get a sheet produced, the problem is that there are lots of different liveries and designs over the years, and many different wagons and loco's to do. The Dick Kerrs are actually less of a problem, assuming I could find drawings, as the naming was done with brass plaques, so there's just a bit of lining. It's the one off's that are going to pose the biggest problem. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgood Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 What a wonderful works photo - thanks for posting Peter. I think there's been a software glitch on the forum though. The first photo clearly shows chocolate production by means of a cupola furnace - note the broken pig chocolate feedstock lying on the ground. Also note the furnace has just been tapped and the hot chocolate ladle being swung over the insulated (wooden) molten pig chocolate carrier wagon for transport to the mould shop elsewhere within the works. Yes, I definitely that this thread has become morphed with Dave's Sheffield steelworks thread............ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter220950 Posted July 31, 2014 Author Share Posted July 31, 2014 What a wonderful works photo - thanks for posting Peter. I think there's been a software glitch on the forum though. The first photo clearly shows chocolate production by means of a cupola furnace - note the broken pig chocolate feedstock lying on the ground. Also note the furnace has just been tapped and the hot chocolate ladle being swung over the insulated (wooden) molten pig chocolate carrier wagon for transport to the mould shop elsewhere within the works. Yes, I definitely that this thread has become morphed with Dave's Sheffield steelworks thread............ I think they were trying out an early version of 'Black Magic', using coal as the base! Not knowing a lot about such plant I haven't got a clue what it is - part of the boiler room/power plant perhaps? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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