Manchester Ducie street goods warehouse

[Michael Delamar]

HI everyone

 

Chris Hewitt's layout Swan street goods which I now own has a model of a  warehouse which  he based on the one at Manchester Ducie street goods.

 

Ive never seen any shots of it in use and would like to see some if anyone knows of any, he got his shots of it from one of the Foxline books but he no longer has the book.

 

cheers

 

Mike

[Ian Fisher]

There is one image during London Road 60's rebuilding, but its hardly full of information. From a Foxline book which covers electrification of Manchester & Style.

 

I have got rail centres too and just had a look in that and cant see anything in there either!

 

Sorry

[Jim Martin]

Railways in the and around the Manchester suburbs, by E.M. Johnson contains a couple of photos of the LNWR London Road goods with the GCR Ducie Street warehouse (the one that's been converted into an apartment hotel in the last couple of years) towering over it in the background.

 

I have a set of photographs that I took 15-20 years ago around Ducie Street and Store Street, showing the GCR warehouse, the canal basin etc. 

 

Jim

 

<Edit> It took me about 10 seconds to find those photos: they were in the first place I looked. They were taken on 13 June 1991. I don't have a scanner, but if anyone's interested I'll see what I can do. I'm pretty sure that a friend of mine has one. </edit>

Edited June 25, 2013 by Jim Martin

[SHMD]

<Edit> It took me about 10 seconds to find those photos: they were in the first place I looked. They were taken on 13 June 1991. I don't have a scanner, but if anyone's interested I'll see what I can do. I'm pretty sure that a friend of mine has one. </edit>

 

Hi Jim,

 

I am very much interested as this as the location for my slow, oh so slow, build of a fictional terminus in Manchester.

 

As a quick(ish), and easy way to digitise the photos, just take a photo of the photos.

That way, anyone who is interested, can express an interest directly.

 

 

Kev.

[Michael Delamar]

picture of the model, the model warehouse has 3 roads , the real thing had a lot more Im pretty sure.

 

[Jim Martin]

Mike

 

Assuming that the warehouse extends down to street level with high-level rail access, it looks more like the MS&LR grain store, which stood on the south side of Store Street in the angle between the LNWR tracks to their London Road goods station (alongside the station approach, where the big office building is now) and the MS&LR tracks which continued over Store Street towards Ducie Street and the canal basin.

 

That was long-gone by 1991, although I think I took a shot looking down Store Street which may show some of the remains.

 

Jim

Edited June 25, 2013 by Jim Martin

[A Murphy]

Volume 18: Issue 6 May 2013 of Railway Bylines reproduced one of the photos E M Johnson used and a couple that I don't think I had seen before in the Foxline books, in an article by Paul Anderson. They are nice big reproductions of a photograph taken in March 1953 and two others from September 1954 and are credited to B K B Green/Initial Photographics. They also reproduce the 1954 ordnance Survey map of the area, also a la Johnson, giving you a track plan which looks pretty accurate. Great location.

 

Alastair M

Edited June 25, 2013 by A Murphy

[Michael Delamar]

thanks everyone, this so far is the only photo I have seen, but still not exactly sure where it is, I had assumed it was the large dead end one at the bottom left of the photo.

 

Edited June 25, 2013 by Michael Delamar

[Arthur]

Not quite Michael, the one with the lines running into it, and with writing on the end wall, is the LNWR London Road goods depot, the long narrow one, with two gables, at right angles to the lines, is the GC Flour warehouse, and the big square one below it, and next to the LNW Depot, is the GC Ducie Street Warehouse.

 

The building centre right, with the tower and large triangular courtyard, was Manchester Central Fire Station.

[Jim Martin]

Further to Arthur's reply, I've scrawled all over the photo you posted earlier:

 

 

1: LNWR London Road goods station

2: MS&LR (later GCR) Ducie Street goods station

3: Covered wharf area for the canal basin, which is in the angle between this structure and the MS&LR warehouse)

4: MS&LR grain store

5: Included for no other reason than that it's a perennial RMWeb favourite, the LNWR's overspill passenger station / parcels depot, Manchester Mayfield

A: Ducie Street

B: Approximate line of Store Street

C: Approximate line of tracks into the GCR goods station. There was also one track that ran down the right-hand side of the grain store and into the transverse shed immediately below Store Street (the flour warehouse). All the other tracks on that side of the grain store were LNWR into their goods station.

 

I have some other stuff that I'll post after I've had my tea,

 

Jim

 

<edit> The "transverse shed immediately below Store Street" is, as Arthur said, the MS&LR flour warehouse. Plates 89 and 91 in the Johnson book show the end of this building that faces onto the LNWR goods station approach quite clearly. Also, there were actually two parallel tracks running down the right-hand side of the grain store, not one as I wrote above. One of these served the grain store; both continued across Store Street into the flour warehouse. </edit>

Edited June 25, 2013 by Jim Martin

[Jim Martin]

Some more Ducie Street pictures...

 

Firstly, an extract from the 1922 edition 25"OS map

 

 

The tracks immediately alongside the passenger station are all LNWR and lead to their goods station. The ones further away are GCR (or MS&LR, or LNER, according to taste): these split and run either side of the triangular(ish) grain store. Looking at the GCR goods station, the large building which contains the word "Goods" from "Goods Station (G.C.R.)" is actually two buildings: the large warehouse and a much more modest (but still pretty big) shed between the warehouse and the flour warehouse. The letter "G" of "GCR" is in the flour warehouse and the word "Station" is in the covered wharf area. A couple of things to keep in mind, because they'll be mentioned again in a minute: the open area between the main GCR warehouse and the LNWR goods station (with a weighing machine marked in it); Junction Street, along the north-east edge of the site; and the aqueduct carrying the canal across Store Street (between the words "Clements" and "Ward")

 

This photo appeared in a 1913 book published by the GCR to advertise its goods services. It shows the area between the GCR and LNWR warehouses, facing away from the flour warehouse and back up towards Ducie Street (it's a bit distorted by the way the pages lie and I wasn't about to press down too hard on a book that I've just this instant realised is now a hundred years old!). This shows the two joined buildings I mentioned above

 

 

All of the remaining photos were taken by me on 13 June 1991. I don't remember why they're black and white: I suppose I was going through an "artistic" phase. At the time the area around the warehouse was in use as an NCP car park. I don't recall whether the warehouse itself was being used as a car park or as anything else.

 

This view (stitched together from two photographs) shows the north-eastern side of the main warehouse. It was taken from the bridge where Junction Street crosses over the canal, forming one of the two entrances to the canal basin. In the left background is the unlovely office block which extends up the station approach ramp to Piccadilly (built on the site of the LNWR goods station). The covered wharf area would have been to the immediate left of this shot. The twin-gabled building just visible on the far right is on the other side of Ducie Street, opposite the warehouse. The other exit from the basin was off to the right, under Ducie Street.

 

 

Taken from the same place, this shows the bridge which carries Ducie Street across the canal. If you look at the map, you can see that this exit from the basin actually passed underneath a building as well as the road. There was another basin on the far side, but I don't think it was anything to do with the railway. I can't remember what the tall building in the background is called, but it's the one on Piccadilly Gardens.

 

 

Next, a shot taken from inside the car park, looking back at the Junction Street bridge. Everything to the right of this shot would have been the covered wharf. One curiosity of the canal basin is that two canals met there, so the Ducie Street bridge led to the Rochdale Canal, while the Junction Street bridge took you onto the Manchester & Ashton-Under-Lyne Canal.

 

 

This shot shows the south-eastern side of the warehouse. It's taken from more-or-less the same angle as the 1913 photo above, and you can clearly see where the smaller shed used to be attached to the warehouse.

 

 

Finally, this shot was taken from the service road which runs along the back of the modern office block on the approach ramp. It shows Store Street, looking north-east. The bridge in the distance is actually the canal aqueduct. There isn't much to see on the right side of the road, but there's quite a bit on the left. First is the recess with the two parked cars. This would have been the street-level access to the flour warehouse, which was immediately above it. Then you can make out a section of newer brickwork, which marks the point where a bridge carried the railway across the street and into the main part of the goods station, between the warehouse and the covered wharf. Beyond that is a section of wall which would have run along the back of the wharf area. Further away again, you can see a van emerging from Junction Street. Junction Street drops very steeply from the bridge over the canal where I took the first couple of photos down to the level of Store Street. The map shows a bench mark at 160' right on the bridge and another at 126' just by where the van is: that's a 34 foot drop in a distance of no more than 200 feet (you can see how steep it is on Google Streetview). All of the stuff to the left of the road has gone now, replaced by a gradual gradient up towards the canal basin, which is edged with modern flats (including the warehouse, which is now a hotel).

 

 

I have a number of other shots taken that day, including a bewildering number of detail shots of doors and windows. These pictures were "digitised" by photographing the original photographs. If people are interested, I'll see about getting the whole lot properly scanned.

 

Jim

 

 

 

[Arthur]

 

Excellent Jim, thanks for posting them and I'd love to see some more.

 

The tall building on Piccadilly Gardens is part of the Piccadilly Plaza complex and the Piccadilly Hotel can be seen on the skyline to the left. The tall block was re clad a few years back and is now called City Tower.

[Michael Delamar]

thank you Jim

 

the fact that it was a grain building I think may answer one question, that is that the 2 left hand lines are so close together I couldnt see how ordinary vans on the left line could be unloaded, could be it was for hopper wagons? that is if Chris has copied the building as it was and hasnt shortened the width.

 

[Jim Martin]

The very short tracks leading into the flour warehouse had been puzzling me too. I would have thought that sacks were much more likely than bulk hoppers for transporting either grain or flour back then. Certainly the GCR owned very few hoppers and the ones they did have were for coal, I think.

 

After some thought, my money would be on wagon turntables just inside the building, leading to tracks running along the long axis of the building parallel to Store Street. This would be similar to the arrangement shown on the map where tracks enter the main warehouse.

 

I'll have a look at "Per Rail" tonight and see if the text mentions anything about the internal arrangements.

 

Jim

[Michael Delamar]

 my money would be on wagon turntables just inside the building, leading to tracks running along the long axis of the building parallel to Store Street. 

 

thats a very good point 

[A Murphy]

There are stacks of wagon turntables marked on the 1954 ordnance survey map and on the one Jim has posted above. Tracks run at right angles off the external line into the warehouse, so parrallel to Store Street and Ducie Street, on the NE side of the building.

 

Alastair M

[Fat Controller]

Could they have had "gang-planks" (for want of a better term) to reach the L/hand road?

This method was certainly used when loading banana trains at Avonmouth.

[Jim Martin]

This method was certainly used when loading banana trains at Avonmouth.

This had crossed my mind, but I'd never heard of it being used in this country. It was very common in the USA, though, which is why you see photos of big-city freight houses with four or five parallel tracks packed with boxcars all lined up.

 

Jim

[Edwin_m]

My grandfather apparently ran a garage on Ducie Street* until he was called up for WW2 - I can't see any sign of it on this thread so far but would be interested if anyone has any info/pictures. 

 

*Family history could possibly be confusing with Great Ducie Street, round the back of Victoria. 

[Jim Martin]

As promised, I had a look in my copy of Per Rail to see what it had to say about the facilities at Ducie Street. For those not of the GCR persuasion, Per Rail was a book published by the GCR in 1913 as a sort of extended advert for its goods services and facilities. I assume that it was intended as a "giveaway" to the sort of people who made decisions about how and by which route goods were to be shipped. It's a substantial book - 238 pages - with hard covers and printed on nice paper, so it can't have been cheap to produce. In its full form, it included three coloured maps: one of the facilities at Immingham, which was owned by the GCR and was brand new when the book was published; one of "the areas of the developed and undeveloped coalfields of Central England... and the situation of the numerous collieries and industrial areas... served by the Great Central Railway"; and one of the GCR and its connections. Copies with the maps intact are apparently very rare: my copy doesn't have any. It also contained a supplement specific to a particular region, bound into the book inside the back cover. Mine had the Liverpool and Birkenhead supplement (it's pure coincidence that the supplement is for where I live: I bought the book at the shop on the platform at Loughborough Central on the preserved GCR and I didn't notice the supplement at the time), but only the outer pages survive. I've got pages 1,2,51 and 52: the rest have come out long ago.

 

Anyway, the chapter on Manchester goes into a brief outline of how marvellous a place it is ("Manchester occupies, of course, the supreme position in the Cotton Industry" - this sort of gung-ho approach to punctuation and capital letters is fairly common in publications of the day) before turning its attention to the equally marvellous facilities provided by the GCR:

 

The Great Central Company has been fully mindful of its obligations to this great city.

 

In the vast warehouses of Ducie Street, which tower seven stories high and wall in the Depot, are stored immense quantities of all kinds of merchandise, lying there in safety awaiting the owners' instruction.

 

There is also a lofty and spacious covered wharf, which is utilised for fruit and vegetable traffic, and where the fish, which daily arrives in special trains, is handled. Potatoes, carrots, cabbages, and cauliflowers are here by the truck load, with every kind of garden produce in infinite variety. There is also an immense traffic in bacon and butter from Esbjerg and other Danish ports, and during the season fruit of all kinds in large quantities from Germany and other parts of the Continent arrives by the Company's boats to Grimsby, and across the country "per rail".

 

The Grain Warehouse is a tremendous building, occupying three sides of a square, and having six stories above the huge area of ground floor. Ample accommodation is thus provided for the storage of the large quantities of grain, other cereals, and flour with which the Company is called upon to deal.

 

The London Warehouse (as it is commonly called) is a building of equal height to the last named. The ground area is provided with five stages, and here the bulk of the general goods to and from London, Southampton, and other ports is handled. The floors overhead contain wares of all kinds, and especially shipping traffic. The warehouse is fireproof, the ceiling of each storey being brick, and four floors are furnished with with Automatic Fire Alarms communicating directly with the Fire Brigade Station.

 

The Bonded Warehouse, dry and wet, upon the massive doors of which one sees two locks, one for the Excise Officers' key, and one for the Company's key, which prevent either authority from entering without the presence of the other, affords extensive accommodation for both dry goods, such as Tea and the like, and the various wines and spirits which are embraced in the term "wet goods".

 

Then there is the Canal Warehouse, where the goods are received and despatched by water route along the Ashton, Peak Forest, and Macclesfield Canals, which are owned by the Great Central Railway. This building is most conveniently situated, close to Ducie Street, and goods received by rail from other parts can be forwarded by barge.

 

The Company owns both road motor lorries and innumerable horse-drawn vehicles for the collection and delivery of Goods in Manchester and district. In Manchester alone the Company has nearly 600 horses stabled.

 

It should also be mentioned that adequate facilities for the shipment of coal and coke are provided at the Manchester docks as well as at Partington and Glazebrook.

 

And then it's on to the next section, which describes the goods station at Ardwick, where "the heaviest loads are whisked by powerful cranes off the drays and lorries, and deposited in the waiting wagons, with the most amazing ease and celerity".

 

Nothing about wagon turntables, I'm afraid.

 

Jim

[Michael Delamar]

all very interesting, thank you.

 

do we know when it closed or was last used by rail traffic?

[Ian Fisher]

http://www.engineering-timelines.com/scripts/engineeringItem.asp?id=1099

 

Makes mention of turntables...

[Ian Fisher]

http://www.gmau.manchester.ac.uk/photos/ma6.jpg

 

Interesting image...

[Michael Delamar]

thats a great shot, hoping to find some decent 50s/60s era shots of it in use.

[Ron Heggs]

Hi, Michael

 

Found this via Manchester Archives, which might be helpful. It shows the wagon turntables outside the warehouse

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/manchesterarchiveplus/9069504633/lightbox/

 

Cheers

 

Ron