London Goods facilities on the Southern Region...

[NXEA!]

Hello all, I am after information regarding goods facilities around London, particularly on the ex-LSWR lines. I'm modelling a fictional urban branch off the West Croydon-Wimbledon line, so the facilities in questions aren't going to be massive as its just a modest 2 siding + headshunt yard. If anyone could link me to photos of goods shed in the region and in this area of London or point me in a certain direction, I'd be grateful! Don't know whether I could get away with the Bachmann Goods Shed based on Shillingstone (I suspect not), or whether I have to kit-build or scratch-build (Oh dear lord!). Or, did small branches on the Southern Region around London not even have a goods yard, and was it just some small sidings with a yard crane etc etc? Thanks in advance you lot! 

[phil gollin]

.

 

Depends on the time period.  Mitcham itself had quite substantial sidings until they were lifted in about 1962 (they served a paint factory and other industrial outlets.  Mitcham Junction not only had a rather weird layout, but had a decent little goods yard.

 

Hampton Court (terminus) had a busy yard and carriage sidings layout and Chessington South was a large coal depot. 

[Oldddudders]

Try this page, and the many links on it, to get a feel of an urban freight branch in that area - passenger trains ceased in 1929.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/m/merton_abbey/index.shtml

 

While the page suggests that freight was handled until 1975, my recollection was that not much went down there after about 1971 - or at least that is about when I last recall being given the running of the train on the day. I worked in Control at the time. I think it was Lines Bros siding.

[andyman7]

Close to me are the mortal remains of Knights Hill (between Tulse Hill and North Dulwich) which closed in 1968 (and which was one of the 'foreign' depots in South London that handled goods transited from the north of London railway companies) - it was in a fairly compact location with a tunnel mouth at one end.

 

At one time there were lots of goods facilities in South London (beyond the standard issue goods yards) which all disappeared between 1960 and the mid 70s. There were extensive down and up yards between Loughborough Jn and Herne Hill; the coal depot at Walworth Road survived (according to my gazeteer) until 1973; there were the Battersea wharf and power station sidings which I can dimly recall still being in some sort of existence until the early 1980s. In the South West of London there was the enormous Feltham goods yard that lay derelict for decades after closure in 1967 and is still partly empty.

 

West Croydon - Wimbledon is an excellent basis because in its (old) heyday it had so many sidings and goods operations. Olddudders recollection of the Merton Abbey line seems to sum up the fate of much of this infrastructure in that it fell gradually out of use and then lingered for some years in many locations in a semi derelict/disused state. However it's all been pretty much redeveloped now and an eagle eye is required to spot the tell-tale signs of former life.

[Oldddudders]

Close to me are the mortal remains of Knights Hill (between Tulse Hill and North Dulwich) which closed in 1968 (and which was one of the 'foreign' depots in South London that handled goods transited from the north of London railway companies) - it was in a fairly compact location with a tunnel mouth at one end.

 

At one time there were lots of goods facilities in South London (beyond the standard issue goods yards) which all disappeared between 1960 and the mid 70s. There were extensive down and up yards between Loughborough Jn and Herne Hill; the coal depot at Walworth Road survived (according to my gazeteer) until 1973; there were the Battersea wharf and power station sidings which I can dimly recall still being in some sort of existence until the early 1980s. In the South West of London there was the enormous Feltham goods yard that lay derelict for decades after closure in 1967 and is still partly empty.

 

West Croydon - Wimbledon is an excellent basis because in its (old) heyday it had so many sidings and goods operations. Olddudders recollection of the Merton Abbey line seems to sum up the fate of much of this infrastructure in that it fell gradually out of use and then lingered for some years in many locations in a semi derelict/disused state. However it's all been pretty much redeveloped now and an eagle eye is required to spot the tell-tale signs of former life.

One of my very first tasks on joining the railway at Dorking North in 1966 was to send out a taxi with a message for Relief Signalman Johnny Knightley to take duty the next day - at Knight's Hill signalbox! I think it was abolished when a mini panel was added to Streatham Junction box in 1969. When Battersea Power Station closed in the early '80s, a housing development on the other side of the river would lose its source of heat, which was pumped under the river. So a new boiler room was built at the end of the headshunts by the river, which needed alterations to the yard layout. By that time traffic was distinctly thin - including the adjacent South Lambeth yard, which was of GWR origin, so another "foreign" depot. That was just before the era of Alton Towers promising to take over the power station, gut it and make it into Battersea Leisure - an idea that partly perished because the railway couldn't help with handling visitors, due to lack of capacity, and planning permission became harder to obtain.

 

Going back to the OP, we don't know the era of your proposal, but I wonder if the Bachmann 2-EPB might figure in your plans, as these were the staple unit on the West Croydon-Wimbledon line from the '60s onwards. Waddon Marsh had coal for the power station, Beddington Lane had some sort of sand facility - ISTR a 1434 Coltishall to Beddington Lane block train - and as has been said, various private sidings and coal yards abounded. If you can include a level crossing it will add local colour - there were several on the route.

[Rivercider]

 

Going back to the OP, we don't know the era of your proposal, but I wonder if the Bachmann 2-EPB might figure in your plans, as these were the staple unit on the West Croydon-Wimbledon line from the '60s onwards. Waddon Marsh had coal for the power station, Beddington Lane had some sort of sand facility - ISTR a 1434 Coltishall to Beddington Lane block train - and as has been said, various private sidings and coal yards abounded. If you can include a level crossing it will add local colour - there were several on the route.

In the Layout Topics introduction thread NXEA mentions the era is loosely 1967 - 1971, and the layout is indeed inspired by the Bachmann 2-EPB!

I was wondering where the local freight trip would have come from for that route, would it have been Feltham prior to closure?

Following closure of Feltham would it be too much of a leap to imagine a trip from Acton Yard with hydraulics?

 

cheers

Edited June 29, 2013 by Rivercider

[Oldddudders]

In the Layout Topics introduction thread NXEA mentions the era is loosely 1967 - 1971, and the layout is indeed inspired by the Bachmann 2-EPB!

I was wondering where the local freight trip would have come from for that route, would it have been Feltham prior to closure?

Following closure of Feltham would it be too much of a leap to imagine a trip from Acton Yard with hydraulics?

 

cheers

The Merton Abbey trip was from Wimbledon West Yard. Waddon Marsh and Beddington Lane were served from Norwood. There was a through freight from Norwood to Wimbledon about 06 00, and the last train over the line at night was a return freight from Wimbledon West Yard to Norwood.

[hmrspaul]

You may find something of LSWR interest in this collection, although Staines was a bit further out than you suggest - and larger. http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/stainescentral

 

Acton did replace Feltham, Backtrack  has just had a 2 part article about Acton Yard - April (4) and May (5) which discusses how traffic for the Southern Region was organised in the mid to later 1970s.

 

Paul

[NXEA!]

Cheers for the help guys. Oldddudders - 5th photo down on the link you showed me, is that the goods shed on the left? Looks like I might be able to get away with buying the Ratio one and painting it suitably... And thanks for the information on the West Croydon-Wimbledon line too. 

Andyman7 - that sounds perfect as my scenic section is only going to be around 6 feet long with the running lines diving into tunnels either end! Well, that's the current plan at least.  

Thank you also Phil, and Rivercider - I might start adhering to Rule 1 more in which case I can run a hydraulic if I fancy. 

You may find something of LSWR interest in this collection, although Staines was a bit further out than you suggest - and larger. http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/stainescentral

 

Acton did replace Feltham, Backtrack  has just had a 2 part article about Acton Yard - April (4) and May (5) which discusses how traffic for the Southern Region was organised in the mid to later 1970s.

 

Paul

Interesting, might look into the Backtrack article. Thank you!

[Oldddudders]

I think the structure in Pic 5 is modern - relative to the station, that is. I can't tell you that there was a goods shed. After all, Tooting Junction station, which had more facilities, was only 77 chains away. Check it out on the same website. But that doesn't matter to you. Disused Stations has a number of closed LBSCR stations, some of which have pictures of goods sheds, which varied in style according to date of construction, so as long as your shed doesn't look too like that of a specific other company, not a problem.

[Fat Controller]

In this month's 'Modern Railways', there is a pull-out section (about A2 sized) which has a current map of the Greater London network ( from the latest 'Baker' on one side), and a historical map, from the London Railway Atlas (3rd edition) on the other. This latter, which extends as far as Herne Hill and the north end of Hither Green in the south, has dates of operation for the various small yards, such as Clapham Common/ New Wandsworth Goods (open until 1968), Brockley Lane Coal (1970). It might well be of interest to the OP.

As regards hydraulics; in 1969 or thereabouts, I saw a Warship picking up empty coal hoppers at Wimbledon- this was a regular working, which also picked up at Salisbury, before heading back on to the Western, I believe.

[NXEA!]

In this month's 'Modern Railways', there is a pull-out section (about A2 sized) which has a current map of the Greater London network ( from the latest 'Baker' on one side), and a historical map, from the London Railway Atlas (3rd edition) on the other. This latter, which extends as far as Herne Hill and the north end of Hither Green in the south, has dates of operation for the various small yards, such as Clapham Common/ New Wandsworth Goods (open until 1968), Brockley Lane Coal (1970). It might well be of interest to the OP.

As regards hydraulics; in 1969 or thereabouts, I saw a Warship picking up empty coal hoppers at Wimbledon- this was a regular working, which also picked up at Salisbury, before heading back on to the Western, I believe.

Looks I'll be popping to the shop tomorrow then! Thanks.

 

I think the structure in Pic 5 is modern - relative to the station, that is. I can't tell you that there was a goods shed. After all, Tooting Junction station, which had more facilities, was only 77 chains away. Check it out on the same website. But that doesn't matter to you. Disused Stations has a number of closed LBSCR stations, some of which have pictures of goods sheds, which varied in style according to date of construction, so as long as your shed doesn't look too like that of a specific other company, not a problem.

Thanks for that. Ratio it is then.

[Fenway Park]

The West Croydon Wimbledon line had freight workings to Croydon B Power Station usually coal from the Kent Coalfield and empties back as well as very irregular workings for the test Olympus engine powered back up system. There were workings to the Gas Works but they closed in the mid 1960s.

There were Engineers Sidings between Beddington Lane and Mitcham Junction but the APCM Cement workings had gone by your chosen era but then it is your layout.

Various sidings close to Waddon Marsh served engineering works etc.

[burgundy]

Nobody has yet mentioned the Middleton Press series of books which cover this area quite well. "Mitcham Junction Lines" documents the Wimbledon - West Croydon and the Peckham Rye - Sutton lines, but there a number of others that cover the wider area.  

At the risk of being pedantic, it is worth pointing out that these were former LBSC routes - not LSWR. The legacy is visible not only in the architecture, but also in the pattern of operation.  As Oldddudders pointed out at #7, local goods traffic was operated from Norwood Yard, which was a Brighton depot, not Feltham, which would have been LSW (only 40 years after the two companies had been merged into the Southern).

Sorry if this helps to confuse!

Best wishes

Eric   

[slilley]

I remember seeing coal wagons being shunted and that at Tolworth when I was doing "games" at school when I was about 6 or 7, so 1971 1972 that sort of era. The King George V playing fields were next to the line at Tolworth.

[Fat Controller]

I remember seeing coal wagons being shunted and that at Tolworth when I was doing "games" at school when I was about 6 or 7, so 1971 1972 that sort of era. The King George V playing fields were next to the line at Tolworth.

Tolworth is still in use for stone traffic, I believe. From the late 1960s, traffic was tripped directly from Acton Yard, then, when Speedlink Coal arrived, from Didcot.

My uncle used to live near Malden Manor station; when visiting him, in the late 1960s, I used to wait eagerly for the mid-morning freight,  the only variety amongst the 4-SUBs. It was hauled by a 73; as someone brought up on noisy diesels and steam trains, I found the virtually-silent electro-diesel very bizarre. I remember there being two coal concentration depots, that at Tolworth and that at Chessington North; one was a Charringtons' site, the other being operated by the NCB's 'retail' subsiduary, though I can't remember which was which. Thus there'd be both fitted hoppers lettered 'House Coal Concentration' and unfitted ones bearing 'Charringtons' lettering. The same trip, from Acton, dropped off wagons at Wimbledon. At the time, I think this included coal wagons, departmental movements for the S&T depot and banana vans.

[Oldddudders]

At the time, I think this included coal wagons, departmental movements for the S&T depot and banana vans.

The S&T stores depot at Dundonald Road was where all out-of-date detonators on SR were required to be sent. Presumably they had a deal with a local bonfire celebration on November 5th!

[NXEA!]

The S&T stores depot at Dundonald Road was where all out-of-date detonators on SR were required to be sent. Presumably they had a deal with a local bonfire celebration on November 5th!

Interesting you mention Dundonald Road, as that's the exact road where Mum's side of the family lived for 8 years!

[NXEA!]

The West Croydon Wimbledon line had freight workings to Croydon B Power Station usually coal from the Kent Coalfield and empties back as well as very irregular workings for the test Olympus engine powered back up system. There were workings to the Gas Works but they closed in the mid 1960s.

There were Engineers Sidings between Beddington Lane and Mitcham Junction but the APCM Cement workings had gone by your chosen era but then it is your layout.

Various sidings close to Waddon Marsh served engineering works etc.

I've found an absolutely fabulous photo of Waddon Marsh in dilapidated condition, the platform loop has been severed with just a single 2EPB in the station, very inspirational because of the almost forgotten air about it. 

[roythebus]

There was Wimbledon yard; the hangar-like building there was indeed an aircraft hangar, reportedly moved from Southampton. It used to be used to house flying boats! 

 

The Merton Road sidings by the Lines Bros. factory was in use till the mid 1960's if I recall correctly. I remember seeing a container wagon there with a lines Bros container, just like the one Tri-ang used to produce!

 

There was also Barnes yard, usually shunted by a 73 or 33 in latter years, this was by the bridge where the singer Marc Bolan was killed in a road accident. West Brompton yard on the WLL, you can still see tracers of that; Clapham new yard on the Brighton side, already mentioned, was a GW yard served by a steep incline from the down slow Brighton line, worked by pannier tanks!

 

Basically anywhere on the Wimbledon-West Croydon would make an interesting model, speaking of which Tooting Junction was at the other end on the Merton Abbey line, had a goods yard and some railway houses. My late father -in-law used to live in one on that site..

[jonhall]

 

The Merton Road sidings by the Lines Bros. factory was in use till the mid 1960's if I recall correctly. I remember seeing a container wagon there with a lines Bros container, just like the one Tri-ang used to produce!

 

 

That prompted a memory - earlier in the year I was looking through copies of the British Railways (SR) magazine at the NRM, and I photographed a few items of local interest.

 

 

 

Where was Carters Tested Seeds? The goods yard at Raynes Park was at low level accessed off the Epsom line.

 

 

 

 

Edit - having peaked my interest I also discovered this charming set of Carters photos on flickr http://www.flickr.com/photos/pete_edgeler/sets/72157627540667542/

Edited July 1, 2013 by jonhall

[andyman7]

One of my very first tasks on joining the railway at Dorking North in 1966 was to send out a taxi with a message for Relief Signalman Johnny Knightley to take duty the next day - at Knight's Hill signalbox! I think it was abolished when a mini panel was added to Streatham Junction box in 1969. When Battersea Power Station closed in the early '80s, a housing development on the other side of the river would lose its source of heat, which was pumped under the river. So a new boiler room was built at the end of the headshunts by the river, which needed alterations to the yard layout. By that time traffic was distinctly thin - including the adjacent South Lambeth yard, which was of GWR origin, so another "foreign" depot. That was just before the era of Alton Towers promising to take over the power station, gut it and make it into Battersea Leisure - an idea that partly perished because the railway couldn't help with handling visitors, due to lack of capacity, and planning permission became harder to obtain.

My railway career started a bit later (including a stint as SM Sutton, which covered Dorking at that time as it had been placed under the Central division by then). Even the carriage sidings there were out of use but not yet lifted. When doing Ops training on the Eastern division, working in Chartham and Canterbury West boxes gave me the only opportunity to see something other than  class 1 or class 2 passenger trains signalled through under absolute block because the latter still had the oil sidings in use - and even they're now long gone....

Edited July 2, 2013 by andyman7

[NXEA!]

Thank you all for the help!

[roythebus]

Carters Tested Seeds had a big site next to the old A3 Kingston by Pass and next to the railway, north side of the line. I suspect the entire site has now been built on.

[coline33]

NXEA interest in the WC-W line in the period 1967 to 1971 has caused me to reply, especially as Olddubbers refers to the 1434 Cottishall - Beddington Lane working and Fenway Park thought the APCM Cement workings had ceased. In fact, NXEA can model this interesting sand train which ran during his period. The Blue Circle facility had been redeveloped to produce their Sandtex products and to relocate Hall & Co. from East Croydon plus handle Ready-Mix Concrete's operations. Pointers got the contract for the supply of sand and purchased from BR a fleet of diagram 1/112 cupboard door minerals (renumbered into their PR series). The Blue Circle sidings were renovated to handle the 18 PR wagons plus the four highfits at the head (to help with braking an otherwise unfitted train) and being facing and in sight of the Beddington Lane SB was controlled from there.

 

Train No.7O55 arrived at Norwood Down Yard and the Class 31 detached. A Class 73 backed on and at 0545 slowly under diesel power drew the train on to the electrified track to lower the shoes. The train was electrically hauled via the Passenger Line to arrive at Beddington Lane at 0610. Depending on its length, the gates had at times to be opened throughout the operation. The Class 73 on diesel power then propelled the train into the loop from which the Blue Circle sidings had a trailing point. As soon as positioned, the Class 73 rapidly left the scene 'light engine' booked no later than 0625, for Mitcham and Streatham Junctions for its return to Stewarts Lane. This did give a contingency for any trouble to keep the first passenger train of the day (0631 from West Croydon) on time (or warn intending passengers!). The breaking down of the train, shunting the Blue Circle sidings and return of the PR empties to Norwood Up Yard was in the hands of Classes 08 and 09. The incoming Class 31 at Norwood of course returned the PR empties to Ipswich to await next orders.

 

I hope this helps NXEA with an additional operation. Good job Parkside Dundas do a diagram 1/112 kit at a reasonable price!!!