2 BIL to Blue BIL

[Gwiwer]

And apparently carriages were revarnished at one to two year intervals, and even SR malachite paint from the 1940's when revarnished became darker and yellower until it could appear indistinguishable from the newer BR malachite green. Preparations for the revarnishing process in some cases involved removal of the surface coats including lining/lettering without interfering with the basic body colour.

 

 

BR Southern Region certainly adopted this practice and process which AFAIK was inherited from the SR.  Teams of coach-painters stripped a vehicle to bare metal once or twice in its lifetime before starting from the undercoat up but more frequently stripped only the varnish and sometimes the top coats of paint every few years. 

 

While we might think it wasteful to apply layer after layer of paint and varnish only to rub it back to almost what was there immediately before that is the nature of coach painting and is the method by which the deep shine for which SR stock in particular was known was achieved.

Edited July 9, 2013 by Gwiwer

[Enterprisingwestern]

I think we need some Laserglaze for these?

 

Mike.

[Colin parks]

Spot on - I'm the one who could not extract his nose from your EMUs - good memory that man!

 

And this is the point rodding I was wittering on about!

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/71121-third-rail-experiments/

 

 

Best wishes.

Hi Howard,

 

I had a look at your work last year after the show by viewing the Nottingham area S4 group website.  Astoundingly fine work on the rodding and the same goes for the track/ point-work too! 

 

All the best,

 

Colin

 

Edit: The complexity of that P4 point-work in your opening post explains how you are able to squeeze a Minories plan into the space available! 

Edited July 9, 2013 by Colin parks

[Colin parks]

Hi Colin,

 

I look forward to following your topic on the 2BIL, and as I have purchased one of Hornby's 2BIL models, I think that I have a sort of vested interest in your project.

 

Like you, due to the lack of informationat the time, in my case no internet, few SR emu books, and 12,000 miles from the prototype, at the time over 40 years ago when I built my 4COR, 4BUF, and 6PAN models, they have many faults, made all the more oblivious after following your excellent 4COR build topic. Perhaps it is time for me to retro-fit roof lighting conduits and more underframe details to these models

 

Re. the SR geeen paint, some years ago a colleague in the UK sent to me a paint swatch containing genuine BR malachite Coach Green No11 paint. This paint originated from the Eastleigh Loco Works Paint Shop. Thje paint on this card it is the natural paint colour finish without varnishing. 

 

At the same time this same colleague sent to me a Dulux shade card for "Woodland Fern1" 90GY 08/187 which in his opinion was very close in colour to BR malachite (Coach Green no. 11) and went on to say that SR carriage paint schemes consisted of a total of about 12 coats of primer/paint/varnish.

 

And apparently carrages were revarnished at one to two year intervals, and even SR malachite paint from the 1940's when revarnished became daker and yellower until it could appear indistinguishable from the newer BR malachite green. Preparations for the revarnishing process in some cases involved removal of the surface coats including lining/lettering without interfering with the basic body colour.

 

Over the years I have used this colour swatch from Eastleigh paint shop as my colour reference point for BR malachite green. It is very close in colour to Humbrol HR113 and Railmatch 307.

 

So I'll skip your section on removing the glazing and perhaps give the Hornby 2BIL a light spray of Humbrol satin varnish no. 135 which tends to yellow with age, bearing in mind that no two sets of multiple units or rakes of carrages were ever the same colour in sevice.

 

 

Regards

 

Bazza

Hi Bazza,

 

At least someone has a definitive paint sample then!  My reasons for repainting the model have been explained, so the green question has been for other to ponder, such as yourself.  Taking the glazing out is not hard, but unnecessary unless a full re-paint is to be done.

 

All the best,

 

Colin  

[Colin parks]

BR Southern Region certainly adopted this practice and process which AFAIK was inherited from the SR.  Teams of coach-painters stripped a vehicle to bare metal once or twice in its lifetime before starting from the undercoat up but more frequently stripped only the varnish and sometimes the top coats of paint every few years. 

 

While we might think it wasteful to apply layer after layer of paint and varnish only to rub it back to almost what was there immediately before that is the nature of coach painting and is the method by which the deep shine for which SR stock in particular was known was achieved.

Hi Rick,

 

The Southern certainly did have shiny coaches, so I have revised my coach side varnishing for a matt finish to semi-gloss accordingly.  The condition of the paint seemed to deteriorate rather quickly if the frequent re-varnishing was not carried out, having seen plenty of pictures dating from the late sixties.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

I think we need some Laserglaze for these?

 

Mike.

Hi Mike,

 

I have fitted individual panes of glazing to models.  It is not easy - even laser-cut panes would all have to 'sit' in the same plane or the effect would be unsatisfactory.  The Hornby glazing is well tooled fits nicely, is almost flush and can be carefully removed and replaced (I hope!).  For what reason would Laserglaze be needed?

 

All the best,

 

Colin

 

Colin

Edited July 9, 2013 by Colin parks

[Gwiwer]

Any paintwork left out in the open will deteriorate fairly quickly.

 

When you think of the fact that rolling stock is outside for almost all of its life, only being under cover for maintenance or the lucky few units which made it into cleaning sheds overnight - and not every night by any means - then it's no surprise that even the best coach painting faded, became dirty and after barely a few months in service could look decidedly second-hand.  But even then the quality of workmanship could be seen upon closer inspection.  

 

Compared with today's two-pack painting which doesn't hold a shine for five minutes (though is otherwise quite durable) or - even worse - vinyl stickers which tear and curl - then the SR was among the best in the business in their heyday.

[Oldddudders]

Any paintwork left out in the open will deteriorate fairly quickly.

 

When you think of the fact that rolling stock is outside for almost all of its life, only being under cover for maintenance or the lucky few units which made it into cleaning sheds overnight - and not every night by any means - then it's no surprise that even the best coach painting faded, became dirty and after barely a few months in service could look decidedly second-hand.  But even then the quality of workmanship could be seen upon closer inspection.  

 

Compared with today's two-pack painting which doesn't hold a shine for five minutes (though is otherwise quite durable) or - even worse - vinyl stickers which tear and curl - then the SR was among the best in the business in their heyday.

So much of Southern's main line rolling stock, especially the SE and Central Sections, spent time close to salt water and attendant weather. Units working along what we now call East & West Coastway services spent their whole day exposed to it, in fact. The salt will only have accelerated the weathering that all trains receive.

[HAB]

The complexity of that P4 point-work in your opening post explains how you are able to squeeze a Minories plan into the space available! 

 

Thanks for the kind words Colin - of course, Newhaven MkII in P4 will fit just as well and look even better:-)

 

Just re Lazerglaze - it really is first class stuff.  The main benefit over moulded is that the prismatic effect is eliminated and it was amazingly quick to do. 

 

 

The transfers are the Replica Railways "reverse" images which allow them to be stuck to the inside of the glazing.

 

Unfortunately, the pic also shows that I need to replace all the roof conduits... and then finish the weathering... Oh, and the rubbish interior now shows up a lot more...

 

I will speak with Brian Hudson and see if he responds to gentle arm twisting re the 2 Bil - but I'm sure that will not delay you!

 

Sorry if this drags us off topic a bit.

 

Best wishes,

[Enterprisingwestern]

Thanks for the kind words Colin - of course, Newhaven MkII in P4 will fit just as well and look even better:-)

 

Just re Lazerglaze - it really is first class stuff.  The main benefit over moulded is that the prismatic effect is eliminated and it was amazingly quick to do. 

 

EPB Lazerglaze 2.jpg

 

The transfers are the Replica Railways "reverse" images which allow them to be stuck to the inside of the glazing.

 

Unfortunately, the pic also shows that I need to replace all the roof conduits... and then finish the weathering... Oh, and the rubbish interior now shows up a lot more...

 

I will speak with Brian Hudson and see if he responds to gentle arm twisting re the 2 Bil - but I'm sure that will not delay you!

 

Sorry if this drags us off topic a bit.

 

Best wishes,

 

Thanks Howard, saves me seeming a little biased with the same comments.

 

Mike.

 

PS. Who is Brian Hudson?

[HAB]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

PS. Who is Brian Hudson?

 

Hudson Hanson.

 

My fingers type slowly but still faster than my brain...(or is that Brian?)

 

Thanks Mike!

 

Howard.

[Colin parks]

Thanks for the kind words Colin - of course, Newhaven MkII in P4 will fit just as well and look even better:-)

 

Just re Lazerglaze - it really is first class stuff.  The main benefit over moulded is that the prismatic effect is eliminated and it was amazingly quick to do. 

 

EPB Lazerglaze 2.jpg

 

The transfers are the Replica Railways "reverse" images which allow them to be stuck to the inside of the glazing.

 

Unfortunately, the pic also shows that I need to replace all the roof conduits... and then finish the weathering... Oh, and the rubbish interior now shows up a lot more...

 

I will speak with Brian Hudson and see if he responds to gentle arm twisting re the 2 Bil - but I'm sure that will not delay you!

 

Sorry if this drags us off topic a bit.

 

Best wishes,

Wow! that Lazerglaze really does look good.  I can see why Mike wants some for the Hornby 2 BIL now.  The Replica transfers  on the inside of the windows with the text facing outwards do look the parts too.  Hmm.  - maybe I won't stick the original glazing in too permanently!

 

All the best ,

 

Colin

Edited July 9, 2013 by Colin parks

[Colin parks]

A search of photos of  2 BIL roofs showing the inner end arrangements on the web has been hard.  I finally found one photo today which is hopefully of a 2 BIL.  Having looked at the model's toilet water tank filler pipes, it seemed that they went in an unusual direction from roof edge to filler cap.   Here is a link to the photo which seems to show the twists and turns taken by these pipes to be made in a series of right angles rather than taking a diagonal course.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/31890193@N08/4983327738/sizes/o/in/set-72157615369425444/

 

Any ideas anyone?

 

Colin

 

[Colin parks]

Things are taking an even more confusing turn.  Whilst looking at the general roof details, it looks as if 2 BIL roof vents are centred over the compartments rather than just off-centre as on the Hornby model.  Here is a link to one of robertcwp's photos which highlights this feature somewhat.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/8353467743/in/set-72157603648747922/lightbox/

 

The KIrk model that was built a while back, has many discrepancies between it and the real thing, but the vents do at least appear to be in the right place.  Changing the Hornby detail on the roof is going to be more tricky than at first thought.  It doesn't look like the plan of just planting new 3-D details where moulded-on ones once were is going to work! 

 

Roof comparisons:

 

 

The l/h DTC roof has some things which can't be right:  The moulded lighting conduit on the left runs through the toilet water tank filler cap and straight along just under the vents - which doesn't seem physically possible really. The problem is: it is easy to say what the wrong position is, but harder to work out what the right position is for all these things!

 

 

 

The DMBS  on the left looks to have conduits where expected, except for the  lamp tops over the luggage compartment not being the same distance from the front.  (Both Hornby roofs lack the toilet mushroom-shaped air vents and also lamp tops.  That is not such a big issue though.)

 

I wonder if any definitive plans exist for the 2 BIL roofs?

 

Colin

 

 

 

[Miss Prism]

I wonder if any definitive plans exist for the 2 BIL roofs?

 

The best I know of are Nick Cambling's in the April 1970 Model Railway Constructor. How 'definitive' they are is another matter. Some good roof pics there as well.

 

Wondering aloud, did Hornby copy the roof layout of the first ten ('non-standard', for want of a better phrase) BILs?

[bazza.]

Thanks for the kind words Colin - of course, Newhaven MkII in P4 will fit just as well and look even better:-)

 

Just re Lazerglaze - it really is first class stuff.  The main benefit over moulded is that the prismatic effect is eliminated and it was amazingly quick to do. 

 

EPB Lazerglaze 2.jpg

 

The transfers are the Replica Railways "reverse" images which allow them to be stuck to the inside of the glazing.

 

Unfortunately, the pic also shows that I need to replace all the roof conduits... and then finish the weathering... Oh, and the rubbish interior now shows up a lot more...

 

I will speak with Brian Hudson and see if he responds to gentle arm twisting re the 2 Bil - but I'm sure that will not delay you!

 

Sorry if this drags us off topic a bit.

 

Best wishes,

I'll second that for Newhaven MkII in P4.

 

Has any one used slide glass for coach glazing ?

 

For many years to eliminate the prismatic effect of mounded clear plastic, I have used 1mm thick slide glass for my coach glazing.  Easy to cut and shape, a bit fragile, but looks like glass because it is glass.

 

Regards

 

Bazza

Edited July 30, 2013 by bazza.

[bazza.]

The best I know of are Nick Cambling's in the April 1970 Model Railway Constructor. How 'definitive' they are is another matter. Some good roof pics there as well.

 

Wondering aloud, did Hornby copy the roof layout of the first ten ('non-standard', for want of a better phrase) BILs?

More than likely they would have copied NRM unit 2090 !

 

Regards

 

Bazza

[bazza.]

Hi Bill,

 

Thanks for your comment re. the Kirk 2 BIL. It is in its second guise, having previously been painted too dark a shade of green. The paint is Precision Paints' BR Southern region EMU Green, though I forget the number. It was dusted down with some black Tailors' chalk to take the brightness away somewhat. The knobs are unbranded from the local model shop, but they probably are of Gibson manufacture.

 

For the Hornby BIL, the knobs will be reduced by holding them in a pin-chuck held in turn in a lathe and turned at the highest speed setting. A fine needle file will do the job of removing the shoulder at the base of the knob as well as gently filing the knob itself. This was not done for the Kirk BIL as I had not worked out how to perform this process back then.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

Hi Colin,

 

Could the Precision Paint number be : B108 BR Southern Electric Stock Green (Dull)

 

Bazza

[Miss Prism]

More than likely they would have copied NRM unit 2090 !

 

That's what I thought initially, Bazza, but clearly Hornby did not copy 2090 in other respects, viz the cockup on the driving trailer bogie, so I concluded Hornby didn't look at any drawings at all. Maybe that's what design clever means? Or is 2090's roof non-standard? No doubt Detective Parks will unravel the mystery.

[Ceptic]

Re :- Vents

 

I've come to the conclusion that there were, at least, two different layouts used for different batches.

I made an attempt to clarify my observations in post #302 of the Hornby 2-BIL thread.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65633-Hornby-2-bil/page-13

[Guest maxthemapman]

Wouldn't these units have been built by a bunch of people scrambling over coach roofs in a workshop with some power tools? In which case their brief would have been to get light and ventilation into each compartment roughly in the right place. This is a process that could have varied from day to day, let alone batch to batch. Any plans would have been for general guidance only.

[Colin parks]

Re :- Vents

 

I've come to the conclusion that there were, at least, two different layouts used for different batches.

I made an attempt to clarify my observations in post #302 of the Hornby 2-BIL thread.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65633-Hornby-2-bil/page-13

Hi Frank,

 

Sorry I missed the reply you posted on the roof differences in the Hornby 2 BIL topic.  I kind of gave up posting and viewing there.  Having had a read through of all the information and looking at all pictures to hand, you are right. 

 

To summarise what I deduced (late!) last night:  Units 2011-2116 had off-set torpedo vents above compartments, with units  2117-2152 having them just off  the centre-line of the roof towards the compartment side.  All the DTCs from the 'production' 2 BILs (by that I mean excluding the first ten built with different traction equipment and window layout etc.) had their cab torpedo vent mounted centrally.  I also suspect that the vents over compartments were evenly spaced and not centred over the windows.  This is hard to gauge from photos, but could be the case.  (This is something that I think I got wrong on the 4 COR - too late now for that to be changed!)

 

Not only this, but the later 2 BILs had Alpax aluminium window frames around all the fixed glass, with concealed fixings.  This could account for the discrepancy between the model and prototype in Miss Prism's post here in post#45  

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65633-Hornby-2-bil/page-2

 

Unfortunately,  David Brown is not clear in his book Southern Electric p 106 stating "by now" if he means all the 'production'  2 BILs had Alpax frames, or just the  last 36 of them.  Unit 2090 does appear to have Alpax frames too and that is an earlier build without the reinforced underframe etc.. .  The changes to the roof layout and possibly the change to Alpax frames seem to coincide with the retirement of Maunsell and the appointment of Bulleid as CME of the SR - interesting.

 

I am not clear as to whether Hornby have produced the earlier roof arrangement for their earlier version of the 2 BIL. But at least I can just clear the lot off and work from pictures.  The conduit is a different matter - still working that out: If the vents changed position on later 2 BIL roofs, then the power line conduit must have too.

 

Colin

 

Edited to correct description of vent position on last batch of 2 BILs

Edited July 13, 2013 by Colin parks

[Colin parks]

Wouldn't these units have been built by a bunch of people scrambling over coach roofs in a workshop with some power tools? In which case their brief would have been to get light and ventilation into each compartment roughly in the right place. This is a process that could have varied from day to day, let alone batch to batch. Any plans would have been for general guidance only.

Hi Max,

 

See the post above.  I think (and so does Ceptic) that this was a design change.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

Edited July 10, 2013 by Colin parks

[Colin parks]

As a respite from roof conundrums, making a start on the driver's door grab handles seemed like a good idea.  The knob as bought is on the left.  On the right is a knob after carefully removing the shoulder at the base an re-shaping the top with a file needle file and wet and dry carborundum paper.

 

 

The knobs are threaded on to 0.4mm hard-drawn brass wire from Eileen's Emporium (the 0.05mm play in the bore of the knobs accounts for odd angle and badly posed wire doesn't help).  The diameter of the wire seems about right in proportion to the knobs and scales out to approx. 1 1/4".  Now all I have to do is fit the eight grab handles to the cab sides.  Having had a practice with the 4 COR, I am cautiously optimistic on this looking OK in the end.

 

Colin

[Guest oldlugger]

Hello Colin,

 

After you've removed some of the bogies, rebuilt the roof; modified other bits and repainted it, you're not far off scratch building this model! If what you say turns out to be correct, I think many on here will be reaching for their craft knifes or wondering what it is exactly they have running on their layout; the 2 BILs Up maybe! Whatever, your model will end up shining through, of that I have no doubt.

 

All the best

Simon

Edited July 10, 2013 by oldlugger