RMweb Premium uax6 Posted July 10, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 10, 2013 Colin, Do you have the MRC plans of the BIL? If not they may well be hiding in the archive, so I can email them over again. I do find it strange that there are some many things wrong, I thought that these days that you scan the original, scale down and then make the moulds? Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Colin, Do you have the MRC plans of the BIL? If not they may well be hiding in the archive, so I can email them over again. I do find it strange that there are some many things wrong, I thought that these days that you scan the original, scale down and then make the moulds? Andy G A certain Danish OO Western fell foul in this respect, even though there are 7(?) prototype locos still in existence, with many books and photos published on the loco. The 2 BIL is not exactly well represented in preservation, however. Cheers Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 10, 2013 Author Share Posted July 10, 2013 (edited) Colin, Do you have the MRC plans of the BIL? If not they may well be hiding in the archive, so I can email them over again. I do find it strange that there are some many things wrong, I thought that these days that you scan the original, scale down and then make the moulds? Andy G Hi Andy, If you have those plans, I would be more than interested in seeing them! As for scanning I am not sure if that includes the roof of the subject - perhaps it does. The problem is taht without research it can be assumed that the preserved subject-whatever it is, represents every other one made. In the case of Southern EMUs there seems to have been constant revision of designs/later changes, plus re-forming to keep the maximum number of units operational regardless of mismatching of styles. One thing that sprung out immediately on seeing a photo of 2090 taken last year is that the motor coach wiper is in the same position as that of the model i.e. half-way across the window. We should be glad that the chap doing the scanning didn't leave his hat on one of the buffers or......! All the best, Colin Edited July 10, 2013 by Colin parks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 10, 2013 Author Share Posted July 10, 2013 (edited) A certain Danish OO Western fell foul in this respect, even though there are 7(?) prototype locos still in existence, with many books and photos published on the loco. The 2 BIL is not exactly well represented in preservation, however. Cheers Simon Hi Simon, Yes, it is very easy for a manufacturer to fall into all sorts of traps with prototypes not being what they seem in terms of typicality. Having said that, perhaps someone should have known or told Hornby that unit 2090 is not representative of all 2 BILs in the 'production' run. I really don't want this to turn into a 'bashing' thread so I shall get on with making the intended changes without so much focus on why they have to be made! All the best, Colin Edited July 10, 2013 by Colin parks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazza. Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 BR Southern Region certainly adopted this practice and process which AFAIK was inherited from the SR. Teams of coach-painters stripped a vehicle to bare metal once or twice in its lifetime before starting from the undercoat up but more frequently stripped only the varnish and sometimes the top coats of paint every few years. While we might think it wasteful to apply layer after layer of paint and varnish only to rub it back to almost what was there immediately before that is the nature of coach painting and is the method by which the deep shine for which SR stock in particular was known was achieved. Hi Rick, Excuse my ignorance but what or who is AFAIK ? Regards Bazza Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted July 10, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 10, 2013 Excuse my ignorance but what or who is AFAIK ? It's an abbreviation for "as far as I know" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 10, 2013 Author Share Posted July 10, 2013 Had a go at the grab handles. These very small parts seem positively massive in close-up! The next thing to be done - and possibly the most tricky work of all, is to remove the cab ventilators. On the motor coach at least, a lost-wax brass example is going back in the same place. The DTC's vent will be on the roof centre line which means the area where the vent is excised will have to be very neatly done. I've just remembered that the last night it also became clear the final batch of 36 2 BILs, one of which this model is to represent, had two door bangs on each passenger door. Aagh! Might just ignore that alteration! Colin 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 11, 2013 Author Share Posted July 11, 2013 (edited) It seemed wise to practise carving the cab vents off starting with the DMBS one, which will have a direct replacement on the same spot. The 'new' DTC vent isn't going back where it has been moulded and perilously close to the finely detailed riveted joint between the BIL's steel cab dome roof and the canvas-covered wooden one , so extra care is needed on that one. The plastic is fairly soft polystyrene, so reasonably easy to work the blade through. Have I voided the Hornby guarantee yet do you think?! This job was taken seriously enough to use a fresh knife blade! I have found some roof diagrams drawn by Andy Mullins in 1991, which shows the layout of vents and conduits for units 2011-2116 (2116 had a steel roof, but presumably fits into that camp). The drawings appear to correspond to prototype photos of the 2 BILs of that ilk - but what about the others? Now, if anyone has a copy of those 2 BIL plans by Nick Campling, I would dearly like to see them! Colin Edited to correct unit numbers. Edited July 13, 2013 by Colin parks 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Ooh er! Rather you than me Colin. If it HAD been me the knife would have continued through the adjacent detail with consummate ease. Cheers Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 11, 2013 Author Share Posted July 11, 2013 Ooh er! Rather you than me Colin. If it HAD been me the knife would have continued through the adjacent detail with consummate ease. Cheers Simon Hi Simon, Sharp knives are far safer than blunt ones - they don't slip! I have to confess that is not exactly how the body was held when the cutting was done, but a quick pose for the camera. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 11, 2013 Author Share Posted July 11, 2013 'Alpaxing' of the window frames: The two quarter-lights to the left have not yet felt the gentle touch of the fine flat needle file yet, but be sure, they are about to! Colin 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
crompton 33 Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 going off topic . i would like know if there was a 2bil converted to a sandite, if so this will give me a good reason to have one, as i model in the mid 70's. thanks in advance . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted July 12, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 12, 2013 going off topic . i would like know if there was a 2bil converted to a sandite, if so this will give me a good reason to have one, as i model in the mid 70's. thanks in advance . There was this one at the RTC as a make up air brake set if that helps. http://www.traintesting.com/images/2bil%20001.jpg Mike. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Just going back to roof layouts, Looking through the "usual sources" there seems to be some variation between the batches, but I can't see any with the vents on the centreline. http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/5398732955/in/set-72157603648747922/lightbox/ Colin, have you identified a source of 4mm vents - those on your Kirk Bil are not quite the right style it seems. Cheers, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 A search of photos of 2 BIL roofs showing the inner end arrangements on the web has been hard. I finally found one photo today which is hopefully of a 2 BIL. Having looked at the model's toilet water tank filler pipes, it seemed that they went in an unusual direction from roof edge to filler cap. Here is a link to the photo which seems to show the twists and turns taken by these pipes to be made in a series of right angles rather than taking a diagonal course. http://www.flickr.com/photos/31890193@N08/4983327738/sizes/o/in/set-72157615369425444/ Any ideas anyone? Colin Hi Colin. In all the pics I've seen (very few), the tank filler pipes do follow a series of right angles at roof level, on both cars, as the Brighton / Flickr pic shows. Both Nick Campling's and Skinley drawings show only one filler pipe per car, as do the Phoenix kit's 2-BIL instruction sheets. The second pipe being a later mod, methinks. These side on pics may help. You may have also noticed that the lavs'. mushroom vents are missing from the Hornby model ! (Don't go in there !!) All the best, Frank. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Just going back to roof layouts, Looking through the "usual sources" there seems to be some variation between the batches, but I can't see any with the vents on the centreline. http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/5398732955/in/set-72157603648747922/lightbox/ Colin, have you identified a source of 4mm vents - those on your Kirk Bil are not quite the right style it seems. Cheers, Hi Howard. This pic,, also by Robert Carroll, shows a later unit with the DTC, again, nearest camera. You can just about see the subtle difference These vents being on, or near, the roofs' centre line http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/5934429687/in/set-72157603648747922/ P.S. It looks like the southernrailway.net site has gone down. That is a shame, as there were some great b/w shots on there. All the best, Frank. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 12, 2013 Author Share Posted July 12, 2013 (edited) Just going back to roof layouts, Looking through the "usual sources" there seems to be some variation between the batches, but I can't see any with the vents on the centreline. http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/5398732955/in/set-72157603648747922/lightbox/ Colin, have you identified a source of 4mm vents - those on your Kirk Bil are not quite the right style it seems. Cheers, Hi Howard, Re. the ventilators, the later batch of 2 BILs had them just off centre towards the compartment side of each coach. The Hornby arrangement is substantially correct for the unit I am going to model. Do not worry about the shape of the vents. Those seen on my Kirk model are wrong and I already have small oval lost-wax brass ones from Branchlines in hand for the job. All the best, Colin Edited July 12, 2013 by Colin parks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 12, 2013 Author Share Posted July 12, 2013 Hi Colin. In all the pics I've seen (very few), the tank filler pipes do follow a series of right angles at roof level, on both cars, as the Brighton / Flickr pic shows. Both Nick Campling's and Skinley drawings show only one filler pipe per car, as do the Phoenix kit's 2-BIL instruction sheets. The second pipe being a later mod, methinks. These side on pics may help. ScannedImage.jpg ScannedImage-2.jpg ScannedImage-3.jpg ScannedImage-4.jpg You may have also noticed that the lavs'. mushroom vents are missing from the Hornby model ! (Don't go in there !!) All the best, Frank. Hi Frank, Thanks for all the information you have supplied on the subject of 2 BIL roofs! Your pictures show the route which the toilet water tank filler pipes take to avoid the mushroom vent and toilet lamp top. (Yes, I know they are missing, but it just means less to cut off for me.) I shall stick to having two pairs of filler pipes, as that is the condition a blue liveried 2 BIL would have been in, but make new ones to match the pictures. Of more concern is the lack of news on the Southern Pride order. At this rate, the project will be held up by the lack of these components. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassettLoko Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 (edited) Hi to everyone. Earlier on, Bazza asked what the major deficiencies of the Kirk 2-BIL kit were/are. One rather obscure fault, is the demarcation of the cab 'vee' angles, if the kit is built as supplied. The two moulded grooves on the inside of the Kirk cab front, which facilitate forming up a 'vee' wedge from the flat injection moulding, are much too wide apart. At a whisker under 9mm., this positions the bend angle much nearer to the cab windows. On the prototype, the crease of the 'vee' angle is immediately to either side of the headcode panel. On my models, I corrected the mouldings by glueing plastic rod into the pre-formed grooves, and then cut new bending slots 7mm apart. Of course, the cab rain gutter needs to be similarly corrected, and in reality, this is also much deeper in section than the representation moulded on the Kirk roof. I was therefore quite surprised to see Colin's side-by-side Hornby/Kirk photograph in #39, where his Kirk model still exhibited the more pronounced 'wedge' shape out of the two. Has this received a similar mod., Colin? The Hornby 'wedge' looks distinctly suppressed by comparison, especially when viewed from that camera angle, and for my money, the Kirk model still looks more authentic. What say anyone else? Bertie. Edited July 12, 2013 by BassettLoko Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 12, 2013 Author Share Posted July 12, 2013 (edited) Hi Bertie, I hadn't picked up on that problem with the Kirk kit and just built it as per the instructions! The Hornby model measures up well and is less wedge-shaped at the front. That seems to be correct. All the best, Colin Edited July 12, 2013 by Colin parks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kirk Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 (edited) Hi All, Who would have thought after all these years that people would have been talking about improving/using this kit. I did think that the advent of good quality RTR would have killed off the kit market. After all the Hornby versions with the advantages of computer driven toolmaking can be so wonderfully detailed. When I cut the brass moulds for these in 1985 it was 1:1 milling and engraving operated by my own fair hands. With reference to a 00 drawing and a couple of photographs. As far as I know Colin still has the tooling for these. He also has the Austin Allen/Kirk moulding machine that I had Austin Allen build for me. I wanted a "stretched" version of their Gnat machine to take long thin moulds (coach sides/roofs etc.)and they agreed to build it if I did the working drawings. I believe a few others were built but I have never found one. When Colin sold the LNER coach range to Tony Brown who had Coopercraft at the time Tony converted the moulds to fit whatever machines Coopercraft had and these have presumably been sold on to the new owner. Colin kept the Southern stuff and ran off small batches from time to time on the stretched machine. He used to do batches of the 2 Bil for Branchlines so it is possible that he has done the same for the new chap who now has Coopercraft. Somewhere amongst the history of this is a part completed range of LMS PII suburbans that I was working on when I sold the range to Colin. Never finished, never traded. I had even bought half a tonne of maroon plastic for them but I believe that Colin used that up on O gauge seating strip. best wishes, Ian Edited July 12, 2013 by Ian Kirk 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassettLoko Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Hi Colin, I did mention this to Colin Ashby several years ago, and at his request, I sent him photo's and diagrams of my corrected model. (Btw, I might add that this was by snail mail! I am all agog at the superb photos posted on here, but wouldn't have a clue how to contemplate even starting such a task - old dogs and new tricks....!) I don't think Colin ever did anything about it, and in all honesty, even if he had the will to do it, the cost involved most probably wouldn't have made it worthwhile. In any case, it is a relatively simple matter to correct at the pre-assembly stage, but I should imagine nigh on impossible to retro-correct, once the build has been completed! Out of interest, as has been mentioned earlier, unit 2116 had a steel roof. I'm not sure from memory about the conduit arrangements, but the steel roof certainly lacked the traditional longitudinal rain-strips, and instead had individual arc-shaped rain-strips above each door. I seem to recall that they were almost identical to the rain-strips fitted to the metal dome above the driver's door on wood/canvass roofs. All the best, bertie. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassettLoko Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 (edited) Hi Ian, Our posts crossed in the post, so to speak! Yes, it must be amusing to hear us debating on the various merits of your kits after so long! However, they do stand up well against current rtr, as the photo's from Colin show to such good effect. It was also most interesting to hear your side of the kit manufacturing history! I have built 3 sets of original Kirk 2-BIL's, and with carefully added detail, they do make very convincing models. I also have a few parts to scratch build one unit from the first ten 2-BIL series. Despite retirement, this project, along with a 4-LAV, 6-PUL, 4-CORx2, and a pair of 2-NOLS have all so far been still born! Are you still active in any rail-related capacity these days? P.S. What a great shame that your LMS period II non-corridors never saw the light of day... I am gutted! Colin, if you do eventually replace the roof vents on your Kirk 2-BIL, and you can withdraw the ones fitted in the roof without damage, they look to be perfectly suitable for re-use on a 2-NOL, or Ex-LSWR 'nutcracker' 3-SUB (or post-war re-formed 4-SUB), should you ever decide to build one!! All the best, bertie. Edited July 12, 2013 by BassettLoko Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 12, 2013 Author Share Posted July 12, 2013 Hi All, Who would have thought after all these years that people would have been talking about improving/using this kit. I did think that the advent of good quality RTR would have killed off the kit market. After all the Hornby versions with the advantages of computer driven toolmaking can be so wonderfully detailed. When I cut the brass moulds for these in 1985 it was 1:1 milling and engraving operated by my own fair hands. With reference to a 00 drawing and a couple of photographs. As far as I know Colin still has the tooling for these. He also has the Austin Allen/Kirk moulding machine that I had Austin Allen build for me. I wanted a "stretched" version of their Gnat machine to take long thin moulds (coach sides/roofs etc.)and they agreed to build it if I did the working drawings. I believe a few others were built but I have never found one. When Colin sold the LNER coach range to Tony Brown who had Coopercraft at the time Tony converted the moulds to fit whatever machines Coopercraft had and these have presumably been sold on to the new owner. Colin kept the Southern stuff and ran off small batches from time to time on the stretched machine. He used to do batches of the 2 Bil for Branchlines so it is possible that he has done the same for the new chap who now has Coopercraft. Somewhere amongst the history of this is a part completed range of LMS PII suburbans that I was working on when I sold the range to Colin. Never finished, never traded. I had even bought half a tonne of maroon plastic for them but I believe that Colin used that up on O gauge seating strip. best wishes, Ian Hi Ian, Well, you got the character of the 2 BIL just right and as such the kit lends itself to being the subject of interesting detailing projects. My 'take' on your model has many self-inflicted mistakes, all of which could have been corrected if I had got around to it. My friend, Oldlugger is going to have the model, correct its faults and convert it to P4. So it will go on and on! I did know that you had sold the moulds to Colin Ashby and he did make small batches of kits that were always snapped up quickly. It seems that Coopercraft are now going to market the 2 BIL now, according to their website. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 12, 2013 Author Share Posted July 12, 2013 Hi Colin, I did mention this to Colin Ashby several years ago, and at his request, I sent him photo's and diagrams of my corrected model. (Btw, I might add that this was by snail mail! I am all agog at the superb photos posted on here, but wouldn't have a clue how to contemplate even starting such a task - old dogs and new tricks....!) I don't think Colin ever did anything about it, and in all honesty, even if he had the will to do it, the cost involved most probably wouldn't have made it worthwhile. In any case, it is a relatively simple matter to correct at the pre-assembly stage, but I should imagine nigh on impossible to retro-correct, once the build has been completed! Out of interest, as has been mentioned earlier, unit 2116 had a steel roof. I'm not sure from memory about the conduit arrangements, but the steel roof certainly lacked the traditional longitudinal rain-strips, and instead had individual arc-shaped rain-strips above each door. I seem to recall that they were almost identical to the rain-strips fitted to the metal dome above the driver's door on wood/canvass roofs. All the best, bertie. Hi Bertie, I think our posts are crossing here! On the subject of unit 2116, that was a one-off with an experimental all-steel roof fitted to test its durability. According to David Brown in his excellent book Southern Electric, unit 2116's roof was inspected thoroughly after WWII and found to be in good order. It proved to Bulleid/Lynes that all-steel roofs were reliable, hence the 'production' 4 SUBs came to be built. Your guess is as good as mine as to what layout was used on the roof, but my guess is that it was fitted with conduits and vents as per the previous 115 'production' 2 BILs. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now