Colin parks Posted July 12, 2013 Author Share Posted July 12, 2013 Too tired to do much actual work on the 2 BIL today. The new lamp irons have been fitted, made from .005" phosphor-bronze strip, force-fitted into a slotted hole, then bent at a right angle. The notches in the cab front over the coupling hook are done. Tomorrow I'll have to take a deep breath and start on the removal of the conduit and other roof features which are to be replaced. Colin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted July 13, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 13, 2013 Your guess is as good as mine as to what layout was used on the roof, but my guess is that it was fitted with conduits and vents as per the previous 115 'production' 2 BILs. I would have thought that the roof piping/conduits were jig bent at the time of building, and so, as you surmise, they would be no different. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kirk Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Hi Ian, Our posts crossed in the post, so to speak! Yes, it must be amusing to hear us debating on the various merits of your kits after so long! However, they do stand up well against current rtr, as the photo's from Colin show to such good effect. It was also most interesting to hear your side of the kit manufacturing history! I have built 3 sets of original Kirk 2-BIL's, and with carefully added detail, they do make very convincing models. I also have a few parts to scratch build one unit from the first ten 2-BIL series. Despite retirement, this project, along with a 4-LAV, 6-PUL, 4-CORx2, and a pair of 2-NOLS have all so far been still born! Are you still active in any rail-related capacity these days? Hi, When I sold the 4mm range to Colin Ashby I had also sold the factory and general plastic moulding business but felt I was too young to retire so I started again in O gauge but as a one man business. The O gauge coach range now runs to about 50 types including the PII LMS non corridors which did make it into production this time. I got around the size of mouldings problem by using a small machine but making the sides in modules. Every door separate so the joins are meant to show. This is a great boon to the conversion people as they don't have to cut them up. There have been no new types for a few years now though as having reached retirement age I now work 2/3 days a week instead of 7.There are two rooms in the attic, last occupied I think by Land Army girls, (this was a dairyman's house)so I spend some time working on model railways for me for a change. best wishes, Ian 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 13, 2013 Author Share Posted July 13, 2013 (edited) I would have thought that the roof piping/conduits were jig bent at the time of building, and so, as you surmise, they would be no different. Mike. Hi Mike. I'm sure you are right about the common components. However, the parts would have been interchangeable on the 2 BILs up to Unit 2116 but not after that. Why the ventilators were moved on the last batch, resulting in the changes to conduit, perhaps we will never know. I have gone through all the photos I can on the web, and am absolutely certain that that the preserved unit 2090 has a different arrangement to that of my model, which is of course 2134. All the best, Colin Edited July 13, 2013 by Colin parks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Hi Simon, Sharp knives are far safer than blunt ones - they don't slip! I have to confess that is not exactly how the body was held when the cutting was done, but a quick pose for the camera. All the best, Colin Over the years, two nasty modelling knife accidents stick in my memory (If squeamish, don't read any further, both involved loads of claret). One was twenty odd years ago with a fine piercing saw, something slipped and the blade dug down a few mil into a left-hand finger - Ouch! Trouble was, it wouldn't come out, the teeth tend to lock in place. Not worth going to A&E (or whatever they call it now), so only one answer, shut yer eyes and rip it out quickly. Didn't 'arf hurt for a few minutes! Second incident was about fifteen years ago, having just put on one of Colin's "safer" brand new sharp scalpel blades into the long SM No.5 handle. Somehow it jumped out of my hand, somersaulted in the air, then plunged vertically into my seated right thigh. It remained perpendicular without assistance, and as i watched a dark purple batch got wider and wider on my jeans - Whoops! Again, re-creating a medieval battle scene, i pulled out the offending weapon, removed the jeans and eventually stopped the bleeding. Now this time i really should have gone to A&E, but i didn't, about half-an-hour later my leg began to seize up, this lasted for about an hour, but i have lived to tell the tale. Let's be careful out there everyone. I shall be watching this 2-BIL thread with interest, i've got a few mods i fancy doing, anyone done a yellow panel or front yet? Not sure if it's worth re-painting one blue, cos that may be in the range next year, but then again, at the moment Hornby seem to be taking a lifetime to produce anything and in sufficient quantity. BK Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 13, 2013 Author Share Posted July 13, 2013 (edited) Hostilities have really begun now, starting with the DTC's roof first: The filler pipes are going to be replaced and also get in the way for the next process, so off they came. The cap on the filler tank is just a press-fit and easily levered off. Next, the stand-alone conduit knobs are firmly pushed out from the inside (the same applies to removing the filler pipes from the inner ends). Just the gentlest of strokes with the knife blade held flat against the roof and the conduit etc. can be carefully shaved away. The position of the DTC's cab vent can be seen just above my finger tip. All 'production' 2 BILs, without exception, had their cab vents on, or just off, the centre-line on the DTC cab roof just to the fore of the roof/cab joint. (That statement could come back to haunt me!) The DTC's roof after a rub down with wet and dry paper (used wet). To the left lay the tools of destruction. The power line and control conduits could, in theory have been kept, but would have made the task of removing the vents etc. much harder to do neatly. I have left the round moulded-on conduit supports (between the holes), as they are just the same as shape as I have fitted to my scratch-built EMUs. (Surely Hornby didn't take a peek at one of the topics did they?!) The inner end of the DTC. The toilet water tank filler cap has been taken off. A new one is going to be sited in line with the ventilators. This avoids the r/h lighting conduit running straight though it, which could never have been the case. The holes where the knobs were on the inner ends will be filled and new brackets made. It should be noted that all these photos relate only to the work of replacing fittings as per the last batch of 2 BILs. (Edit: apart from that bit about the DTC cab ventilator.) Colin Edited July 13, 2013 by Colin parks 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold SHMD Posted July 13, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 13, 2013 It's a shame those cleverly designed roof vents had to go... Kev. Nice build and great documentation for us ham fisted types. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Hostilities have really begun now, starting with the DTC's roof first: The filler pipes are going to be replaced and also get in the way for the next process, so off they came. The cap on the filler tank is just a press-fit and easily levered off. IMG_6622.JPG Next, the stand-alone conduit knobs are firmly pushed out from the inside (the same applies to removing the filler pipes from the inner ends). IMG_6624.JPG Just the gentlest of strokes with the knife blade held flat against the roof and the conduit etc. can be carefully shaved away. The position of the DTC's cab vent can be seen just above my finger tip. All 'production' 2 BILs, without exception, had their cab vents on, or just off, the centre-line on the DTC cab roof just to the fore of the roof/cab joint. (That statement could come back to haunt me!) IMG_6627.JPG The DTC's roof after a rub down with wet and dry paper (used wet). To the left lay the tools of destruction. The power line and control conduits could, in theory have been kept, but would have made the task of removing the vents etc. much harder to do neatly. I have left the round moulded-on conduit supports (between the holes), as they are just the same as shape as I have fitted to my scratch-built EMUs. (Surely Hornby didn't take a peek at one of the topics did they?!) IMG_6628 (1024x698).jpg The inner end of the DTC. The toilet water tank filler cap has been taken off. A new one is going to be sited in line with the ventilators. This avoids the r/h lighting conduit running straight though it, which could never have been the case. The holes where the knobs were on the inner ends will be filled and new brackets made. IMG_6629.JPG It should be noted that all these photos relate only to the work of replacing fittings as per the last batch of 2 BILs. (Edit: apart from that bit about the DTC cab ventilator.) Colin Hi Colin Have I sent you my 2 Bil roof pictures. Can't remember now. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 13, 2013 Author Share Posted July 13, 2013 Hi Colin Have I sent you my 2 Bil roof pictures. Can't remember now. Dave Hi Dave, Nor can I. We must be getting old! Seriously though, please send whatever you have. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Colin. Here's what I have of use. I basically missed photographing the BILs so here is the NRM one. My photography was not so good back then so I have fiddled about in Paintshop Pro to bring out some of the details. Note the differing rainstrips. Dave 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 13, 2013 Author Share Posted July 13, 2013 (edited) Colin. Here's what I have of use. I basically missed photographing the BILs so here is the NRM one. My photography was not so good back then so I have fiddled about in Paintshop Pro to bring out some of the details. Note the differing rainstrips. Dave Hi Dave, Many thanks for posting those pictures. I had not seen them before and they will be most useful for reference in the days ahead. While they show 2090, which has a different arrangement on the roof, the components are quite clear to be seen. The lamp tops are set lower in the row towards the centre, the water pipes do approach the tank by a series of right-angle bends and the DTC's cab vent is smack on the roof centre-line. I suppose the differing water strips is down to how they were nailed on post re-canvassing of the roofs. There seems to be a distinct lack of fixings showing on the window frames of 2090. The frames appear to be Alpax ones. All the best, Colin Edited July 13, 2013 by Colin parks 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 13, 2013 Author Share Posted July 13, 2013 (edited) Thanks to Clive Mortimore for further information on the 2 BIL! Now, I made a start on the installation of the torpedo vents ont he DTC. It has been decided to set the vents in a more evenly spaced row, keeping to the line taken by the ones removed from the model. The cab vent is now on the centre-line of the roof - where it should be on all 'production' 2 BILs. The vents are now pitched at approx. 12.5mm centres over the third/second class compartments with a distance of approx. 13.5mm to the next pair. I haven't got to the first class area of the DTC yet, so will advise on the measurements there when they are worked out. Tomorrow the extraneous bits need to be removed from the DBMS roof. Colin Edited July 13, 2013 by Colin parks 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted July 14, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 14, 2013 Re the scalpel blade discussion. After having too many close calls and accidents with blades generally, when removing detail, I now use well honed, (quality, ie Stanley) wood chisels and various sizes of these http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/Parting_Systems__Indexable_.html and these http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/Square-Tool-Steel-Pieces--hss-.html. Far safer. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAB Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 (edited) Hello Colin, Excellent stuff and many thanks again for such an informative thread. I posted earlier about the shape of the torpedo vents and I'm afraid that my concern has not gone away Here's a little extract from two of the images:- [Dave - many thanks once again for an excellent set of images] It looks a bit to me like the proportions of the brass casting are rather different (in the widths - a side-on view might also be revealing) compared both with Dave's image and with the impression left on the roof by the Hornby original. My concerns stems from my feeling that sometimes, it is the proportions of the individual items that create the biggest impact on the eye rather than the exact positioning of them. Of course, the ones Hornby fitted to the Maunsell Loco Hauled stock look super! Grrrr! Signed:- Very Concerned of East Midlands!! Best wishes, Edited July 14, 2013 by HAB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 14, 2013 Author Share Posted July 14, 2013 (edited) Hello Colin, Excellent stuff and many thanks again for such an informative thread. I posted earlier about the shape of the torpedo vents and I'm afraid that my concern has not gone away Here's a little extract from two of the images:- Torpedo vents.jpg [Dave - many thanks once again for an excellent set of images] It looks a bit to me like the proportions of the brass casting are rather different (in the widths - a side-on view might also be revealing) compared both with Dave's image and with the impression left on the roof by the Hornby original. My concerns stems from my feeling that sometimes, it is the proportions of the individual items that create the biggest impact on the eye rather than the exact positioning of them. Of course, the ones Hornby fitted to the Maunsell Loco Hauled stock look super! Grrrr! Signed:- Very Concerned of East Midlands!! Best wishes, Hmm. I see what you mean Very Concerned of East Midlands! Taking note of your comments, I have taken some shots to compare the original moulded-on vent and the brass ones. The brass ones are a little narrow and I could change them for something with a wider cowl if I knew where to get them. Now.the brass ones look a little hand-made in this enlargement, but do have the better side profile. The 'shadow' left on the roof from the removal of the moulded-on vents is slightly larger than you would expect as it includes the relief-angle of the moulding. The moulded-on ones just don't look right from any angle to me, (excepting looking straight down on the roof perhaps). As for position proportion shape, an old musicians' saying comes to mind: "The wrong note in the right place is half right - the right note in the wrong place is all wrong!" So bearing in mind that I am not just plonking all the new vents in the position of the old ones (except for three on the DMBS and eight over the first class compartments), I shall carry on with the drilling and leave the new vents as a press-fit for now to see if any better shaped ones can be found. All the best, Not Complacent of Wales (Edited following the study of the Nick Campling drawing. The Position of the first class vents on the model is exactly right for units 2117-52) Edited July 14, 2013 by Colin parks 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted July 14, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 14, 2013 These MR torpedos are quite good, but I don't know if the size is correct for you. they are 2mm tall, 1.5 dia and 3mm across the ends of the horns with a 1mm band in the middle http://www.wizardmodels.co.uk/images/51lcomp/phsmrc043w.jpg I know that Coachmann found some brass torpedos that were see through(!) but I can't find where he said he got them. Andy G 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 14, 2013 Author Share Posted July 14, 2013 These MR torpedos are quite good, but I don't know if the size is correct for you. they are 2mm tall, 1.5 dia and 3mm across the ends of the horns with a 1mm band in the middle http://www.wizardmodels.co.uk/images/51lcomp/phsmrc043w.jpg I know that Coachmann found some brass torpedos that were see through(!) but I can't find where he said he got them. Andy G Hi Andy thanks for the link. I have had a look, but they appear to be of the round variety. The see through ones sound appealing. I wonder what shape they are? All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 14, 2013 Author Share Posted July 14, 2013 Just ones last shot of the DTC with all its (provisional, Howard!) vents in place, and as yet not fixed. I'm dry-stone walling in the garden for the rest of the day, so if I have any fingers left unbroken after that, the DMBS will be tackled later on. Colin 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Hi Dave, Many thanks for posting those pictures. I had not seen them before and they will be most useful for reference in the days ahead. While they show 2090, which has a different arrangement on the roof, the components are quite clear to be seen. The lamp tops are set lower in the row towards the centre, the water pipes do approach the tank by a series of right-angle bends and the DTC's cab vent is smack on the roof centre-line. I suppose the differing water strips is down to how they were nailed on post re-canvassing of the roofs. There seems to be a distinct lack of fixings showing on the window frames of 2090. The frames appear to be Alpax ones. All the best, Hi Colin. Sorry about that. I've not modelled a 2Bil so have never needed to look into the various details on them. Have you got the MRC drawing and the pictures that went with it. They're quite good. Have had a look through my collection of books but only found the following 2 shots. One not very good at all. I've scanned them (for personal use only). I now note there were 4 different build batches for the 2Bil. Dave Colin 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 14, 2013 Author Share Posted July 14, 2013 Hi Dave, Just seen your message before trudging off into the garden. I have studied the first image at length it comes for 'A Southern Electric Story' . I really don't think it should be published here but thanks anyway. (Hope they are not owned by Getty Images, or someone will be getting a nasty bill!) The picture of shows in particular, a line of units headed by 2 BIL 2152 - as you know, the very last one. It can be seen that the vents are just off-centre to the compartment side. Behind that is a 2 HAL. It has its vents along the centre-line of the roof on the DMBS and centred over compartments on the DTC (nearer the camera). the next two units are harder to make out, but appear to be 2 BILs in the series somewhere between 2011-2115. the middle row is headed by another later unit, pity about that gantry obscuring the number! Behind that, a 2 HAL, followed by a late series 2 BIL then another 2 HAL. All this can be made out by knowing where the roof vents were positioned on particular types of unit. The second picture shows unit 2002 from the first ten 2 BILs which are 'pre-production' so to speak - as for differences between them and the main batches, don't even go there! All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Or to paraphrase Eric Morecambe, "I'm using all the right vents, but not necessarily in the right order". Colin, your replacement vents are looking good, although it does seem a crying shame that we have to go to such lengths, to improve an already costly model. I keep wondering if perhaps there was a compromise, middle way of doing this? We've already had my black paint camouflage on the vents, which looked o.k. at a glance, but didn't merit close study. Maybe the existing vents can be undercut with a disc saw, although the re-shaping and cleaning up will be tedious? I'm sure you're right, replacing the vents is almost certainly the best approach, do you think sidecutters will remove the bulk of the vents, then slice and scrape with a round scalpel, for those of us who would rather leave the conduit in place? Re the dry stone wall: Sounds like the local hunt have taken a short cut through the back garden, or have the RAF been flying too low again? Both of these instances happened to my grandparents, when they lived near Oakford, south of Aberaeron (it was Aberayron back then), the foxhunt came through while we were cooking sunday lunch. My grandpa was furious, cos they trampled his vegetable patch and damaged a fence! Cheers, Brian. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Hi Dave, Just seen your message before trudging off into the garden. I have studied the first image at length it comes for 'A Southern Electric Story' . I really don't think it should be published here but thanks anyway. (Hope they are not owned by Getty Images, or someone will be getting a nasty bill!) The picture of shows in particular, a line of units headed by 2 BIL 2152 - as you know, the very last one. It can be seen that the vents are just off-centre to the compartment side. Behind that is a 2 HAL. It has its vents along the centre-line of the roof on the DMBS and centred over compartments on the DTC (nearer the camera). the next two units are harder to make out, but appear to be 2 BILs in the series somewhere between 2011-2115. the middle row is headed by another later unit, pity about that gantry obscuring the number! Behind that, a 2 HAL, followed by a late series 2 BIL then another 2 HAL. All this can be made out by knowing where the roof vents were positioned on particular types of unit. The second picture shows unit 2002 from the first ten 2 BILs which are 'pre-production' so to speak - as for differences between them and the main batches, don't even go there! All the best, Colin Colin. Mmmm. Personal use only, as I said. Anyway. Here are a couple of things that may be of help. The second I will re-post when you start the model. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Colin. Here's what I have of use. I basically missed photographing the BILs so here is the NRM one. My photography was not so good back then so I have fiddled about in Paintshop Pro to bring out some of the details. Note the differing rainstrips. Dave As always, a great set of prints Dave. Many thanks.... I'm guessing here, but do these, show 2090 just after retirement from active service ?. After looking through Dave's, and other 2-BIL roof-top photos, it appears that the spacing of the vents (longitudinally) is more regular on the prototype, than on Hornby's model...... .....I could be wrong tho'. Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 A small diversion. Was this meant for the Eastern Region or an indication that the SR was thinking of putting overhead up. Dave 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted July 14, 2013 Author Share Posted July 14, 2013 Or to paraphrase Eric Morecambe, "I'm using all the right vents, but not necessarily in the right order". Colin, your replacement vents are looking good, although it does seem a crying shame that we have to go to such lengths, to improve an already costly model. I keep wondering if perhaps there was a compromise, middle way of doing this? We've already had my black paint camouflage on the vents, which looked o.k. at a glance, but didn't merit close study. Maybe the existing vents can be undercut with a disc saw, although the re-shaping and cleaning up will be tedious? I'm sure you're right, replacing the vents is almost certainly the best approach, do you think sidecutters will remove the bulk of the vents, then slice and scrape with a round scalpel, for those of us who would rather leave the conduit in place? Re the dry stone wall: Sounds like the local hunt have taken a short cut through the back garden, or have the RAF been flying too low again? Both of these instances happened to my grandparents, when they lived near Oakford, south of Aberaeron (it was Aberayron back then), the foxhunt came through while we were cooking sunday lunch. My grandpa was furious, cos they trampled his vegetable patch and damaged a fence! Cheers, Brian. Hi Brian, Just stopped for lunch. It is so hot here I wouldn't want to be modelling now anyway! Re. taking the 'middle way': I did think to trying to remove the vents and lighting conduit, leaving the control and power line conduits in place. It really didn't seem to be possible to then make a smooth job of the roof. The replacement of the vents was meant to be an operation done in passing whilst changing the lamp tops. It seems to be taking on much larger proportions (excuse my pun there!). All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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