Hornby/Arnold 'Brighton Belle' - price and delivery date confirmed.

[Stevelewis]

It Would appear  that  some  retailers  are  not  aware   of  the  change  in  the  proposed  distribution method   to  the  public  yet,

 

When  they do become  aware  I bet   Hornby  will get  some  flack

[Stevelewis]

I have  spoken  to  Hornby today  and  was  advised  that  the  pre-order facility for the ARNOLD  5 BELS   is not  yet  available,  best  estimate  is that  the  website  will be  updated  to allow  pre-orders  in around 'a week or two'

 

Personally  I would  very  much prefer  to pre order  through a retail outlet.

[PaulCheffus]

At a rough guess because it's a placeholder value (0 not being accepted by the system). But given these will only be sold direct, I suspect these entries will disappear in due course.

 

Hi

 

Hattons system does allow a 0 price as I know of someone who pre ordered a Farish 14 when the price was shown as £0 and when it was delivered he was charged £0. Being the honest person he is he rang Hattons and as a gesture of goodwill (possibly not the correct term in this instance) only charged him half price.

 

I guess it is to prevent that situation from happening a second time.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[oreamnos]

I admit to knowing nothing more about this new Arnold item than what I've just read here, and while I'm glad to see another manufacturer entering British N...

1.) Why enter the market with such an esoteric model that has at best apparently limited appeal?

2.) Why only sell direct to consumers and not to shops?  Even were I interested in this model (though I do like the way it looks enough to at least inquire more about the prototype, which we all know is the first step down a slippery slope!) I have no interest in buying directly from Hornby, and I won't.  I much prefer to support local shops (via the internet orders, of course, given where I live).

 

These are more rhetorical questions than anything else.  I'm sure Hornby have its reasons even if I personally think they're daft ones.

 

Matt

[mikeharvey22]

I admit to knowing nothing more about this new Arnold item than what I've just read here, and while I'm glad to see another manufacturer entering British N...

1.) Why enter the market with such an esoteric model that has at best apparently limited appeal?

2.) Why only sell direct to consumers and not to shops? Even were I interested in this model (though I do like the way it looks enough to at least inquire more about the prototype, which we all know is the first step down a slippery slope!) I have no interest in buying directly from Hornby, and I won't. I much prefer to support local shops (via the internet orders, of course, given where I live).

 

These are more rhetorical questions than anything else. I'm sure Hornby have its reasons even if I personally think they're daft ones.

 

Matt

Matt.

 

You can buy it from dealers on the continent where the retail price for a 5 car set is roundly 340 euros less retail discount plus postage. Probably about £80 more expensive than the Hornby UK direct price. It seems that Hornby have had to be creative to get the UK price to £210 for a 5 car set. They are selling direct at price much less than the continental retail price by effectively eliminating the UK dealers and their margin. From the response I have seen the impact appears to be a potential upsurge in demand "I'll have both 5 car sets at that price" instead of none at around £300 per 5 car set.

 

I guess that the original idea was that the Belle had been done already in 00 gauge by Hornby, and might make a prestigious collectors train for the continent even at 1/148 scale.

 

But what next? Could this route be the only one that will secure a Networker, Javelin, Class 92, Pendolino, 4VEP and 2BIL in N gauge, just choosing electrics from the Hornby portfolio? After all Dapol have openly said that the Class 92 and Pendolino are on the back burner and not being advanced at the moment.

 

Mike

[The Stationmaster]

I'm a firm advocate of Hornby properly supporting its retail outlets and have been dismayed at some of what has gone on with the 2 BIL and GW tanks but I think we're looking at a very different situation.  

 

Firstly it is in effect a new brand, and certainly a new scale for rolling stock very recognisably carrying the Hornby name - os it is very much a toe in the market job and it might go wrong (I hope it doesn't).  Secondly, and to a large extent because of the brand novelty but also the nature of the product I can understand that Hornby want to have a very clear idea of sales potential, how their pricing will work in the marketplace, and the rate at which sales occur.  The only way they can do that, with the possible exception of concession sites, is to keep selling under direct control and not see the market distorted by - for example - deep discounting or lose sight of sales figures as retailers take product into stock.  So there are some very good reasons for selling direct, and only selling direct in this particular case.  And of course it increases their profits!

 

So the situation is simple - if you want one you know where you will be able to buy it.

 

But if they do decide to go for an expansion into N gauge then I would hope and implore them to sell through retailers - even if that means they do not accept deep discounting (which they are clearly out to try and stop, or certainly heavily constrain, in any case).

[Stevelewis]

I totally  agree  with the  above,  in todays shaky  retail  situation  it  does make  sense to keep close  tabs on the potential  market,  it  could  be  a  lot  smaller  than Hornby anticipate, ( Hopefully  not).

 

There  have  recnetly  been some  rather deep cut  prices  with  certain EMUs in 00 & N gauge which would indicate  that  unsold  retailer held  stock is  worrying,

 

I noted   that  the  Blue/Grey  2 car set  is down to less than £100 on one retail site.

[roundhouse]

Now which one do I order?

 

I want one of these N scale ones to run on Banbury so heres my options:

 

1837 one will be the correct livery (well close enough) to be pulled by a loco on its way south to the third rail territory. However it will have the wrong bogies.

 

I could get the 1969 blue grey one with the later bogies but then it will be completely the wrong livery for the one currently being rebuilt.

 

Any suggestions?

 

Ian

[shanks522]

Get both Ian and swap body's  .

 

Graham.

[oreamnos]

Matt.

 

You can buy it from dealers on the continent where the retail price for a 5 car set is roundly 340 euros less retail discount plus postage. Probably about £80 more expensive than the Hornby UK direct price. It seems that Hornby have had to be creative to get the UK price to £210 for a 5 car set.

 

[edit]

 

Bachmann/Farish were able to sell N gauge Blue Pullman 6 car sets just last year to discounters who then sold them consumers for £210 (that's Hattons current price), so why can't Hornby do the same?  I know from the inclusion of a Bachmann invoice to Hatton's in a parcel I received from Hattons a couple years ago that the retail markup even by discounters is about 40% on model railway items.  Extrapolating (and yes, with all the caveats) that means Hattons bought its stock of Blue Pullmans from Bachmann for about £150 which means Bachmann (if it wasn't selling them at loss, and why would it?) must have still been making a profit selling them to Hattons at that price.

 

Frankly, I think Hornby can do the same as Bachmann did but have decided instead to cut out the retailers and keep the 40% retail mark-up for itself.  I understand the points made by others about why it might this but I still think treating the shops like that stinks.

 

Matt

[The Stationmaster]

Bachmann/Farish were able to sell N gauge Blue Pullman 6 car sets just last year to discounters who then sold them consumers for £210 (that's Hattons current price), so why can't Hornby do the same?  I know from the inclusion of a Bachmann invoice to Hatton's in a parcel I received from Hattons a couple years ago that the retail markup even by discounters is about 40% on model railway items.  Extrapolating (and yes, with all the caveats) that means Hattons bought its stock of Blue Pullmans from Bachmann for about £150 which means Bachmann (if it wasn't selling them at loss, and why would it?) must have still been making a profit selling them to Hattons at that price.

 

 

Matt

But was that 40% mark-up profit (as it happens I know for  fact that it isn't but it might be interesting to see surmise where it goes.  Firstly we don't know the payment terms other than we do know that Hornby have considerably tightened theirs this calendar year - I don't know the numbers but I understand from retailers that effectively what it means is that in a carefully managed business which is looking to service its debt and make a reasonable level of profit deep discounting has gone off the agenda.  

 

Secondly while Hatton's turnover is most likely to be 'sprightly' on many items  it is clear that doesn't apply to everything if their special offers are any indication - which means they are probably doing what most businesses do and are borrowing money to finance at least part of their stockholding/provide working capital.  Next - like any business - they have to cover the cost of premises, business rates, possibly rental for the mail order operation (I would imagine they own the shop having been there for many years?), wages, advertising (which must cost them a significant amount judging by their magazine exposure) and so on.  

 

So most of that 40% mark up very rapidly vanishes into costs and in most businesses is well down into single figures when it comes out at the other end.  And it isn't necessarily a 40% mark-up on everything as some things they have sold in the past 12 months were only a few £s, and under 10% gross, above the trade price so in reality at the other end of the accounting tunnel they might well have sold those items (which were locos) for no more than a few pence profit on each one, at very best.  

 

I know exactly how much one concern made on the sale of a particular loco in terms of nett profit and it was a tad over 14% on each loco loco - but note that excludes any contribution to the business's everyday operating & overhead costs, such as those I've outlined above.

 

So while a 40% trade mark-up might sound impressive in reality it's often mainly going to pay the bills.  Businesses can only offer deep discounts if they (and their bankers) are either prepared to accept very slim margins on total cost or their maths aren't as good as their selling skills

[ian]

...and don't forget that HMRC grab 20% of the mark up as well...

[Multiple identity account 2]

Now which one do I order?

 

I want one of these N scale ones to run on Banbury so heres my options:

 

1837 one will be the correct livery (well close enough) to be pulled by a loco on its way south to the third rail territory. However it will have the wrong bogies.

 

I could get the 1969 blue grey one with the later bogies but then it will be completely the wrong livery for the one currently being rebuilt.

 

Any suggestions?

 

Ian

I say go for the 1837 one. The livery (IMHO) will take up more space on the model than the incorrect bogies. It might not be a 100% accurate but if you want it can be a small sacrifice. If not there is always the option of buying the newer bogies as spares.

[roundhouse]

I say go for the 1837 one. The livery (IMHO) will take up more space on the model than the incorrect bogies. It might not be a 100% accurate but if you want it can be a small sacrifice. If not there is always the option of buying the newer bogies as spares.

The 1937 one is what I am coming round to and as you say try and get spare bogies.

 

Thanks

 

Ian

[Stevelewis]

I feel  that  we  must  be  aware  that  Hornby  will be  watching  very  carefully  the  numbers  on  this, I think it  is  fairly  obvious  that  iun less  they reach a   certain number of  firm  orders  then it  will not  be  viable  to  make  the  investment nescessary  'pay'.

 

It is  hoped  that  Hornby try to gain  maximum exposure  for this model to make potential  buyers  aware of the  pre-order  requirement.

 

It  takes  me  back  to  when  ROCO announced  that  they  would  be producing an H0e  Ffestiniog  Double Fairlie

 

Eventually the  project  was  cancelled  as 'there  was not  enough interest shown',,    it was after  the cancellation that   quite a few  modellers said  that  they were not aware of the proposed project.

 

I will probably pre order  2 Belles,  I am fairly sure  that  the quality will be superb, (Arnold  Continental products are just that,  in my opinion ranking  along  with Kato N gauge as the best available N Gauge models)

 

And the price  is  reasonable  as  well!

[bmthtrains - David]

I think possibly too much is being read into Hornby's decision to offer this directly rather than through retailers. The model, as I understand it is an Arnold project, a separate company within the overall Hornby group umbrella. Hornby UK are effectively acting as the UK distributor of this model, in a similar way to when Dapol sold Ixions models, or when Kato stock could only be bought through MGSharp.

 

In this arrangement Hornby UK are effectively the retailer, so while a different practice to what we are perhaps used to, it is actually a pretty straight forward approach.

 

The decision to make this model appears to have had very little to do with Hornby UK, but who are understandably heavily invested to make sure it is marketed and sold well

 

David

[mikeharvey22]

My take on this is that this essentially British train would not sell enough at the Arnold prices applied outside the UK.

 

http://www.menzels-lokschuppen.de/en/Railroad-models/Arnold-Hornby/N-scale/railcars/2/

 

A five car set comes to just shy of 306 euros, so around the £270 mark, against £210 for the price in the UK direct from Hornby. I have left the postal charges out of this as they vary from seller to seller. I might have bought one set at the £270 mark, whereas I will buy two at the £210 mark.

 

If the overall demand is as price-elastic as I suspect then for this train Hornby will probably do quite well, and fully justify their investment.

 

The big question is whether I would rather not have certain limited edition trains at all than only have them on direct purchase from the manufacturer.

 

 

Mike

[frobisher]

I say go for the 1837 one. The livery (IMHO) will take up more space on the model than the incorrect bogies. It might not be a 100% accurate but if you want it can be a small sacrifice. If not there is always the option of buying the newer bogies as spares.

The livery is the thing here I'd say. I could be wrong, but the bogies of either may be incorrect for the rebuilt 5BEL as I think they parted company a long time back and may be coming from donor 1963 units.

[Revolution Mike]

I can completely understand the benefits of Hornby doing it this way (particularly in light of some of the problems that Modelzone have had).

 

It must help Hornby manage the risk much more efficiently and enable Hornby to offer it at a very competitive price.

 

On a personal level I doubt I would have been tempted at £300+ per set, but at £210 per set I am very interested! No idea what I would ever need one for - I think I might end up in the same situation as Ian in wanting to model the re-built 5BEL.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Etched Pixels]

I'm guessing a few people will want to buy just the 3 middle coaches in order to model the British Pullman VSOE special.

[talisman56]

So they have variants to produce for later batches? It also mirrors what they did in 00.

 

And if the sales of the ones they are initially offering are so poor they deem it not worth producing the later batches?

 

Reading Stephen Grant and Simon Jeffs' tome "The Brighton Belle" (Capital Transport Publishing, 2nd Ed., 2012), it appears that there are 5 different variants of the Brighton Belle to work with (ignoring super-detail differences):

 

1932 to 'the start of' 1937 - Umber/Cream livery and original lettering (e.g. the description on the side of the 3rd class carriages were "Car no.90 - Third Class"), original numbers 2051-53.

1937 to 1951/52 - Umber/Cream livery and original lettering, numbers 3051-53.

1951/52 to 1955/56 - Umber/Cream livery and revised lettering, carriage descriptions now omit " - Third Class".

1955/56 to 1968/69 - Umber/Cream livery, replacement bogies - the Pullman company refurbished the units in 1955 (3051/52) and 1956 (3053) and 'at some point' the original equalising-beam 'Dutch' bogies were replaced (as part of the refurbishment? - 3052 still had the original bogies in a picture dated March 1956), and the design of the unit numbers also changed.

1968/69 to 1972 - Blue/Grey livery. Overhaul and facelift at Eastleigh: 12/1968 (3052), 02/1969 (3051) and 05/1969 (3053). Car numbers and names dropped, 'Brighton Belle' lettering in their place and full Pullman car number (e.g. 290) at each end of vehicle, apart from behind driving cab where the 'arrows of indecision' were placed. 3051/53 received roller blinds at overhaul - 3052 retained its stencil headcode until sometime in 1970.

[frobisher]

And if the sales of the ones they are initially offering are so poor they deem it not worth producing the later batches?

Then it would have been REALLY foolish to produce all the livery/etc. variants in the first batch...

[Mr chapman]

Then it would have been REALLY foolish to produce all the livery/etc. variants in the first batch.

Agreed! My ideal would be umber and cream with small yellow panels but i'll take a 1937 set with smile on my face all day long! 

[Graham_Muz]

The first pictures of the first Engineering Prototype of the Arnold / Hornby 2mm 1:148 Scale Brighton Belle Unit can now be seen on my blog here

[Multiple identity account 2]

 

The first pictures of the first Engineering Prototype of the Arnold / Hornby 2mm 1:148 Scale Brighton Belle Unit can now be seen on my blog here

 

Sadly I can't view the images. BLOGS are blocked. Graham is there any way in which you can post the images here as they are yours.

 

Cheers!

J